DR. Ghodoussi where's the beef ?

Chris, are you now saying that OG/OC is impervious to bird poo? I was very sure I read a post you had made before saying that it was not bird poo proof and that timely removal was mandatory. It sounds like you're saying something different now, or am I mistaken with what I remember you saying?
 
Hey like I posted, if the acids in bird poo are strong enough to etch paint then they are strong enough to eat through a micron or even sub-micron layer of anything.

Maybe some coatings will prove to be better at blocking these acids from getting to the paint, time will tell.

Just because a coat of wax or a paint sealant won't stop acid from getting to the paint that's not a reason to stop waxing your car. A quality car wax and/or paint sealant still provides more protection than nothing at all plus it provides,



  • Uniform appearance
  • Improved appearance

We polished a swirled out 1968 Firebird last night and while it looked GREAT after the last polishing step it was the last step product that completely evened out the appearance AND maxed out the gloss.


Before
1968Firebird012.jpg


1968Firebird013.jpg




After

1968Firebird018.jpg




The above thrashed paint was restored using Optimum products and the frosting on the cake is Optimum Car Wax.

I "think" that if the owner David leaves the car parked outside and a bird poops on the paint and the bird poo is not removed immediately, it's going to eat through the Optimum Car Wax and leave either a Type I or a Type II Bird Dropping Etching.

Assuming that's true, I would never stop using a quality wax, paint sealant or coating because it can't stop the acids found in bird poo because it creates such a GREAT looking finish that's slick and protected against other less corrosive elements.

It could be Mother Nature is still one up on both in this specific order,

  1. Paint manufactures
  2. Car Care Product Manufactures
Each person can decide for themselves if to use a wax or not, that's up to them, as for me I like how the Firebird came out looking with a coat of wax...

The only thing better than looking at the paint on this car would be driving it...

1968Firebird019.jpg




:D

Wow, amazing transformation...Green may be my next car color.
However, I was not thinking about not using wax, just wondering about the scientific evidence supporting the many claims made about all types of LSP's.
And if their is scientifc evidence, then would it not be possible to compare the efficacy of the claims made about individual products ?
 
I cannot comment anything significant as to UV protection...

To me, all waxes/sealants are specialized grease that is designed to barrier paint from externalities, specifically environmental factors such as airborne particles (dirt, dust, industrial fallout, etc.), water, and air.

Long term exposure to oxygen would cause oxidation in the paint (just as when steel is exposed to oxygen, it form the compound know to us as rust). Similar concept, unless oxidized paint is a misnomer for a different phenomenon. Wax would create the barrier the paint needs to keep from long term exposure to oxygen, thus preventing oxidation.

When it comes to water penetration, since wax and sealants are basically specialized grease, they possess some hydrophobic properties, seen by us as beading/sheeting properties. The tighter the beads (that is, the more spherical vs. semispherical or even non-spherical) or the faster the sheeting means the more hydrophobic the wax is, thus having better resistance to water penetration. But since water is ultimately a corrosive solvent (example, the Grand Canyon), it can degrade the wax over the course of time, especially if the water has a lower ph.

Just from my experience with using waxes and sealants, the barrier does do quite a bit so long as a barrier (wax/sealant) is maintained or reapplied as needed (depends on environmental factors).


This is a very persuasive and easily understood presentation. Thank you.. you have me convinced, but as to my original post I am just wondering about the scientific evidence between the different claims.

Water repellency. UV light, oxygen, chemicals including bird droppings as well as dirt repellency. I addressed it to Dr. Ghodoussi not intending it to be just about Optimum products, but to him as a scientist who would have the experience to comment on the objective analysis done on this subject.

If there is evidence and a way of testing, perhaps the different products can be compared objectively, which is not to say that the subjective reviews are not correct.
 
Chris, are you now saying that OG/OC is impervious to bird poo? I was very sure I read a post you had made before saying that it was not bird poo proof and that timely removal was mandatory. It sounds like you're saying something different now, or am I mistaken with what I remember you saying?


If by original post you mean mine, I put Dr. Ghodoussi name in the post as I felt that with his background he could comment on the scientific evidence behind the many claims on LSP's of all types not just Optimum products.

BTW, all posters comments are very appreciated, I did not mean that only he should respond, but did want to attract his attention.
 
If by original post you mean mine, I put Dr. Ghodoussi name in the post as I felt that with his background he could comment on the scientific evidence behind the many claims on LSP's of all types not just Optimum products.

BTW, all posters comments are very appreciated, I did not mean that only he should respond, but did want to attract his attention.
No, I'm talking about a multi page discussion about OC from many months ago...early winter I think or late fall even.
 
Chris, are you now saying that OG/OC is impervious to bird poo? I was very sure I read a post you had made before saying that it was not bird poo proof and that timely removal was mandatory. It sounds like you're saying something different now, or am I mistaken with what I remember you saying?

I wouldn't choose the word "impervious" due to variables such as thickness, exposure, stage of curation (is that a word)etc. But it does seem that it is more durable than even I had previously thought. I still wouldn't leave it on my car...but that has more to do with my OCD than trusting the coating's attributes. I was very impressed with these reports to say the least.

...If there is evidence and a way of testing, perhaps the different products can be compared objectively, which is not to say that the subjective reviews are not correct.

Dr. G will reply this evening. He's playing in the lab all day today, but he did say he will quote some scientific findings for you. So stay tuned Im the MAN
 
I wouldn't choose the word "impervious" due to variables such as thickness, exposure, etc. But it does seem that it is more durable than even I had previously thought. I still wouldn't leave it on my car...but that has more to do with my OCD than trusting the coating's attributes. I was very impressed with these reports to say the least.



Dr. G will reply this evening. He's playing in the lab all day today, but he did say he will quote some scientific findings for you. So stay tuned Im the MAN
Chris, thanks for clarifying your position. I think I will still advise clients to ensure a timely and safe removal just to be on the safe side.
 
I wouldn't choose the word "impervious" due to variables such as thickness, exposure, stage of curation (is that a word)etc. But it does seem that it is more durable than even I had previously thought. I still wouldn't leave it on my car...but that has more to do with my OCD than trusting the coating's attributes. I was very impressed with these reports to say the least.



Dr. G will reply this evening. He's playing in the lab all day today, but he did say he will quote some scientific findings for you. So stay tuned Im the MAN
Great, thank you very much....
 
Chris, are you now saying that OG/OC is impervious to bird poo? I was very sure I read a post you had made before saying that it was not bird poo proof and that timely removal was mandatory. It sounds like you're saying something different now, or am I mistaken with what I remember you saying?

generally speaking: organic acids - 2.0 doesn't care about them.

it's the inorganic ones that opti-coat is susceptible to...stuff we humans are responsible for, like wheel cleaner acid, etc.

Chris, amirite?
 
Can't comment for the good doctor, but if you've ever clayed a car that hasn't been waxed (ever, or for 6+ months) vs. one that is regularly waxed; the clay will speak for itself.

Well said hand.

I was tapping out a reply, then realized I was speaking from experience. While my experience is documented with pictures and testimonials...it's not scientifically presented. So...I've made Dr. G aware of the thread and he'll answer it as time permits.

A couple of things I find remarkable about Optimum Protection Products:

  • Regarding Optimum Car Wax:

    With continued use, Optimum Car Wax's UV ingredients actually permeate the paint and restore OEM UV inhibitors that were used up/lost.
  • Regarding Optimum Paint Coatings:

    Our distributor in Australia posed this question:

    "I've been doing some testing by leaving bird bombs on the paint for extended periods. On more than one occasion it has left some slight etching after a few weeks, but then this etching later disappears. It isn't getting washed off, because I checked the etching after the wash to make sure it was still present. But then by the next wash it has already disappeared. I didn't think too much off it until a client of ours said he experienced the same thing. Anyone got an explanation for this??? "

    Dr Ghodoussi's reply:

    "What happens is the "etching" you see is in fact a stain on the coating. Not etching as the acid doesn't damage the coating. After a few days this stain breaks down in the heat of the sun and disappears."

OCW is remarkable.
 
This is a very interesting topic and I must admit to never really giving it much thought. I read all the postings to this thread to the last page and I found it very enlightening.

I love this forum!
 
I myself dont care about protection as much as I care for the looks that the LSP provides and how long the looks last.
 
Perhaps the good Dr. can comment.

Is their any scientific evidence that shows that wax's or sealants actually protect against anything ?

We are told that LSP are absolutely necessary for the protection of the paints finish.
I dunno, but a bird just pooped on my well protected car and the finish was instantly etched even when I took it off with Crystal mist...

A lot of time is spent on the forum in serious discussion as to which brand protects more, which carnuba has more wax left after the liquid evaporates and whether or not the amount of wax left has anything to do with the protection.

Protectiion is a primary motivator for people buying these products, yet I have not seen anything scientific that shows that the LSP's provide any sort of protection against anything.

Some posts call this protection an urban legend. Some say that the LSP's cannot reduce UV, salt, bird poop or dirt contamination at all !

So other than perpetuating the urban legend that infact LSP's do something beside make your car shiny, nothing wrong with that by the way, is their any scientific evidence to support the theory that they do infact provide protection and that the protection that they might provide in anyway enhances the longevity and quality of the finish ? And if so to what extent ?

Obviously you have brought up a great question that has generated a good deal of discussion already. There are several different factors that are discussed here and I throw in my $0.002 by starting off with the UV question.

First let me point out that waxes and/or sealants do not block UV light unless there are UV absorbers that are effectively incorporated in the formula. Additionally, automotive UV absorbers which are very durable, have a 5 year half life, meaning that every five years the concentration is reduced by 50% percent.

The UV absorbers we use in the Optimum Car Wax are the same as those in the clearcoat paint. The testing we did is an ASTM standard test for automotive paint. A series of panels were painted with automotive base coat/clear coat at the Bayer polymer division (they supply isocyanates to the major OEM paint suppliers and some car manufacturers). The panels were placed in a QUV chamber for roughly 1,500 hours which is equivalent to 5-7 years of external UV exposure. As the test progressed, it was evident that the panels that had Optimum Car Wax with UV protection did not show any fading for the duration of the test while the panels without UV lost gloss and reflectivity (Definition of Image). These results are listed at the end of the patent 6,669,763 (you can use this link United States Patent: 6669763) which was awarded for this new technology since no other wax or sealant provided UV protection.

Most natural contaminants are hydrophilic in nature including bird poop. Automotive clearcoats are generally based on urethanes, acrylics, melamines, silanes, etc. which are hydrophobic and repel water and other contaminants initially. However as the paint surface gets oxidized (which can take days or weeks) water beading changes to sheeting and environmental contaminants will bond to the surface. Polishing paint will remove the oxidized layer and makes the paint surface hydrophobic again for a short period of time.

As Mike has pointed out, while waxes and sealants might not offer much protection against bird droppings, they will make the surface hydrophobic and minimize bonding of the contaminants to paint. This can help reduce the damage from bird poop and make removal of the contaminants much easier. Besides being very acidic, bird droppings contain enzymes which can break down C-C linkages in automotive paint. As Chris has mentioned already, for maximum protection a coating should be used. The coating we offer has the following advantages:

1. It has a much greater film build compared to a wax or sealant.
2. It does not wear off over time without the use of abrasives or paint removers.
3. It does not oxidize over time, therefore it will continue to repel water and environmental contaminants.
4. It is much more resistant than factory clears toward environmental contaminants including acids.
5. Si-C bonds are much more resistant to enzymes than C-C bonds.

What we have seen so far as well as many reports we have received indicates that Opti-Coat is very resistant to bird droppings even after several days of exposure. That is not to say it is resistant to all kinds of bird droppings since there are many varieties. Of course our recommendation for Opti-Coat users is to remove bird droppings as quickly as possible. However, if there is any staining left behind, do not polish it since as Chris pointed out, the stains are not a sign of etching and usually they are on top of Opti-Coat and can break down/disappear after a few days.
 
Obviously you have brought up a great question that has generated a good deal of discussion already. There are several different factors that are discussed here and I throw in my $0.002 by starting off with the UV question.

First let me point out that waxes and/or sealants do not block UV light unless there are UV absorbers that are effectively incorporated in the formula. Additionally, automotive UV absorbers which are very durable, have a 5 year half life, meaning that every five years the concentration is reduced by 50% percent.

The UV absorbers we use in the Optimum Car Wax are the same as those in the clearcoat paint. The testing we did is an ASTM standard test for automotive paint. A series of panels were painted with automotive base coat/clear coat at the Bayer polymer division (they supply isocyanates to the major OEM paint suppliers and some car manufacturers). The panels were placed in a QUV chamber for roughly 1,500 hours which is equivalent to 5-7 years of external UV exposure. As the test progressed, it was evident that the panels that had Optimum Car Wax with UV protection did not show any fading for the duration of the test while the panels without UV lost gloss and reflectivity (Definition of Image). These results are listed at the end of the patent 6,669,763 (you can use this link United States Patent: 6669763) which was awarded for this new technology since no other wax or sealant provided UV protection.

Most natural contaminants are hydrophilic in nature including bird poop. Automotive clearcoats are generally based on urethanes, acrylics, melamines, silanes, etc. which are hydrophobic and repel water and other contaminants initially. However as the paint surface gets oxidized (which can take days or weeks) water beading changes to sheeting and environmental contaminants will bond to the surface. Polishing paint will remove the oxidized layer and makes the paint surface hydrophobic again for a short period of time.

As Mike has pointed out, while waxes and sealants might not offer much protection against bird droppings, they will make the surface hydrophobic and minimize bonding of the contaminants to paint. This can help reduce the damage from bird poop and make removal of the contaminants much easier. Besides being very acidic, bird droppings contain enzymes which can break down C-C linkages in automotive paint. As Chris has mentioned already, for maximum protection a coating should be used. The coating we offer has the following advantages:

1. It has a much greater film build compared to a wax or sealant.
2. It does not wear off over time without the use of abrasives or paint removers.

3. It does not oxidize over time, therefore it will continue to repel water and environmental contaminants.
4. It is much more resistant than factory clears toward environmental contaminants including acids.
5. Si-C bonds are much more resistant to enzymes than C-C bonds.

What we have seen so far as well as many reports we have received indicates that Opti-Coat is very resistant to bird droppings even after several days of exposure. That is not to say it is resistant to all kinds of bird droppings since there are many varieties. Of course our recommendation for Opti-Coat users is to remove bird droppings as quickly as possible. However, if there is any staining left behind, do not polish it since as Chris pointed out, the stains are not a sign of etching and usually they are on top of Opti-Coat and can break down/disappear after a few days.

This the first time I have seen removal by anything other than abrasion. Are there any particular paint removers to avoid?
 
Paint removers, as in they are taking your paint off! Not solvents for removing oils/wax. Can't imagine why you'd be
removing your paint unless you plan to strip it for a full repaint.

This info has been known and posted since day one but I've always left it out of my posts as anyone with some common sense is not going to use a paint remover on their car unless thats what they intend to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Paint removers, as in they are taking your paint off! Not solvents for removing oils/wax. Can't imagine why you'd be
removing your paint unless you plan to strip it for a full repaint.

This info has been known and posted since day one but I've always left it out of my posts as anyone with some common sense is not going to use a paint remover on their car unless thats what they intend to do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, since I've seen some fairly caustic substances (eg muriatic acid) have little effect in CEE DOG's review, it wasn't clear to me actually what would remove it. What happened when you tried it?
 
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