Duragloss 105 - what kind of sealant?

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nubaseal

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Does it use a physical bond like waxes do or a chemical bond like Opti Seal where the polymers cross link with the paint?

I guess it will depend on whether it is a polymer based sealant or acrylic. I love DG 105 but getting very interested in sealants that can cross link and become part of the paint surface rather than just sitting on it.
 
I really think you are overthinking this. An acrylic is still a polymer...polymer is a very generic term. DG 105 is a sealant...I don't think you'll get any argument that sealants cross-link. I would leave what kind of polymer is in the product to the chemists, but if you want to try to out-think them, you can find some terms to bone up on at Wikipedia under "cross-link".
 
Thanks. I was just reading about Opti Seal and how it cross links, hence the confusion. Also. Dr. G openly talks about his polymers being ahead of the Acrlylic kind on the Optimum forums.
 
Another reason I want to know whether DG105 uses a physical bond is because sealants or waxes with a physical bond can not be layered or topped with another wax. If you top it with a wax, you are practically removing the previous layer of sealant.

On the other hand, sealants like Opti Seal that use a chemical bond can be layered.
 
nubaseal said:
Another reason I want to know whether DG105 uses a physical bond is because sealants or waxes with a physical bond can not be layered or topped with another wax. If you top it with a wax, you are practically removing the previous layer of sealant.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I would like to know if there is any truth to this, as I have been topping 105 with Collinite 845 for the past 2 years.
 
As Setec pointed out, don't over think this otherwise you'll drive yourself crazy...

When thinking about layering protection always remember that anything you apply begins to degrade the minute it's applied. Sun, wind, rain, washing etc all are enemy's and will defeat any protective coating you apply. So when someone asks about applying sealant over wax that's over 2 months old for the most part the wax is probably already met it's fate and is in need of replenishing.

It's always a good idea to thoroughly clean the panel before applying anything and this includes an IPA wipe-down..

After using Duragloss #105 you can top it with a sealant or your favorite wax. Myself, I like to apply Duragloss AquaWax as a final layer of protection.

When I do use sealants I like to let it cure overnight as a rule before adding an additional coat of anything but after that I usually wait an hour or so before reapplying.
 
nubaseal said:
Another reason I want to know whether DG105 uses a physical bond is because sealants or waxes with a physical bond can not be layered or topped with another wax. If you top it with a wax, you are practically removing the previous layer of sealant.

On the other hand, sealants like Opti Seal that use a chemical bond can be layered.
Click to expand...
•When it comes to automotive-LSPs:
-What exactly is a physical bond?

•Regardless of your "theory of layering"...
-Explain chemical bonding.
-Why do you say some Sealants do, and some Sealants don't: chemically bond?
-And to WHAT can/do they bond to, if they do chemically bond?


Thanks.

Bob
 
This is a response by Dr. G on Optimumforums to a questions about Polymers Vs Acrylics

Thank you for your question. I try to answer this without too much technical jargon. The products you mentioned contain polyethylene-acrylic acid which is still a polymer yet very different from what is used in the Optimum line. Polyethylene is the base in these products which is also used in candle making. The acrylic acid portion will provide substantivity which in turn results in durability versus just using polyehtylene based products.

The main difference with the polymers we use vs polyethylene-acrylics is that there is no cross-linking with polyethylene-acrylics. However, with the polymers we use, they will cross-link and cure within 24 hours to create a 3-dimensional matrix. This is valid for the Optimum Car Wax, Poli-Seal, and Opti-Seal. The latter cures much faster due to new technologies that we developed over the past two years.

Another benefit is cross-linking between layers so that if you add a layer of Opti-Seal or Optimum Car Wax on top of Opti-Seal, Poli-Seal, or Optimum Car Wax it wil bond to the previous layer(s). This can not be done with polyethylene-acrylics since there is no cross-linking capability in this technology.

The one advantage polyehtylene-acrylics offer is that since they are acidic by natue, they hold up better to acid rain, however, at the same time since they are acidic, they can cause minor etching of the paint. All and all, for the above reasons, our entire line is free of polyehtylene-acrylics and therefore all of the products in the Optimum line are compatible with each other.

It implies that others sealants like those from Duragloss can not be layered at all, neither with the same sealant or with any wax on top. I always thought that topping a durable sealants like DG 105 with a good wax gets you the best of both worlds but now I am not so sure.

Acrylics vs. Polymer - Ask the Optimum Experts - Optimum Forum
 
I seriously doubt the guys who insist on topping sealants and coatings with everything under the sun... have any idea what they're doing when they cross family lines. Mostly wasting money and time. Dr G again points the way...but is anybody really listening?
 
nubaseal said:
It implies that others sealants like those from Duragloss can not be layered at all, neither with the same sealant or with any wax on top. I always thought that topping a durable sealants like DG 105 with a good wax gets you the best of both worlds but now I am not so sure.

Acrylics vs. Polymer - Ask the Optimum Experts - Optimum Forum
Click to expand...

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of layering, especially with diverse products, but I don't see anything in Dr G's comments that would suggest that you can't layer polyethylene-acrylics. Conventional waxes don't chemically bond to the substrate under any circumstances so the cross-linking issue is moot. I have heard of no negative field results from layering DG sealants nor have I experienced any but I do think that more than a couple layers does little more than waste product. With or without cross-linking IME DG sealants are among the most durable on the market short of coatings.

There seems to be a strange belief among proponents of layering diverse products that it magically delivers all the positives of each product while cancelling out or greatly diminishing their negatives/weaknesses. This is both counter-intuitive and not supported by by own experience. Wax on top of sealants or coatings might give you a slightly different look and it might give you slightly enhanced protection against some contaminants but it definitely will give you the dust and water behavior of wax as an LSP as opposed to that of a sealant or coating. IME this generally means worse behavior. I'm not at all anti-wax, I like the look it can give, but if you want a wax finish IMO just use wax and forget about layering over sealants or coatings (note: hard winter areas, where you want all the protection you can get, may be an exception that tries the rule).
 
nubaseal said:
It implies that others sealants like those from Duragloss can not be layered at all, neither with the same sealant or with any wax on top.
Click to expand...

The problem with what you are doing is you have conflated Duragloss products with the ones Dr. G is talking about. Dr. G's response is specifically about Klasse and Werkstat products, and I would be happy to believe what he is saying about those (polyethylene-acrylic) products (although a lot of Klasse users would argue with him).

However, Duragloss products are not the same chemistry, if you look at their MSDS's they are clearly described as polyaminosiloxane products.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
The problem with what you are doing is you have conflated Duragloss products with the ones Dr. G is talking about. Dr. G's response is specifically about Klasse and Werkstat products, and I would be happy to believe what he is saying about those (polyethylene-acrylic) products (although a lot of Klasse users would argue with him).

However, Duragloss products are not the same chemistry, if you look at their MSDS's they are clearly described as polyaminosiloxane products.
Click to expand...

IMHO, both polyaminosiloxane and polyethylene-acrylic fall under the same category - Acrylic Polymers. Refer here for reference: Polymers and Carnauba wax differences - Autopia Detailing #### - Autopia

Lost Highway said:
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of layering, especially with diverse products, but I don't see anything in Dr G's comments that would suggest that you can't layer polyethylene-acrylics. .
Click to expand...

I thought that is exactly what he is saying about the acrylics that since they can't cross link, an additional layer would remove the previous layer (completely or partially). It may however help to add a second layer to ensure even coverage.
 
nubaseal said:
IMHO, both polyaminosiloxane and polyethylene-acrylic fall under the same category - Acrylic Polymers. Refer here for reference: "illegal link"
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You're going to get banned for that link, and I'm very familiar with that poster; I wouldn't put much stock in what he cuts and pastes. Pretty much every sealant out there uses siloxanes (silicones), so you are indicting every sealant and imbuing them with the same properties as Klasse, etc. Perhaps you are right; but if you are, then there are no layerable sealants and you can stop wasting your time searching for one. And if Dr. G makes the ONLY sealant that layers...then he's been pretty quiet about it except for that one obscure post that even though you said where it was, took me a while to find.
 
What's with being so angry and defensive? Forums are meant to discuss things. When you discuss things, people will sometimes disagree with you. Just because the subject being discussed isn't very popular, does not automatically make it unworthy of a discussion.

Obscure post? I gave you the link, if you click it; it takes you to the discussion.

If you know something others don't, be polite and explain. We're all ears.
 
He's not being "angry and defensive," he's just telling you the situation. Active links to other vendors or to other forums are not smiled upon here. Personally, I could care less but this isn't my forum nor is it Setec's.
 
nubaseal said:
This is a response by Dr. G on Optimumforums to a questions about Polymers Vs Acrylics


The main difference with the polymers we use vs polyethylene-acrylics is that there is no cross-linking with polyethylene-acrylics.

However, with the polymers we use, they will cross-link and cure within 24 hours to create a 3-dimensional matrix. This is valid for the Optimum Car Wax, Poli-Seal, and Opti-Seal. The latter cures much faster due to new technologies that we developed over the past two years.

Another benefit is cross-linking between layers so that if you add a layer of Opti-Seal or Optimum Car Wax on top of Opti-Seal, Poli-Seal, or Optimum Car Wax it wil bond to the previous layer(s).
This can not be done with polyethylene-acrylics since there is no cross-linking capability in this technology.


***All and all, for the above reasons, our entire line is free of polyehtylene-acrylics and therefore all of the products in the Optimum line are compatible with each other.***
Click to expand...
To expound on the above posting/info of Dr. G's:

•Silicone (polysiloxane) polymers can be classified in three categories:
-Fluids, elastomers, and resins.

•Polymers of moderate molecular weight---little to no cross linking---are fluids.

•Polymers of high molecular weight---slightly cross-linked polymers---are elastomeric.

•Polymer of low molecular weight---highly cross linking---are resins.
They contain functional groups, (usually hydroxyl, alkoxy, or chloro groups) that undergo hydrolysis and/or condensation to form highly cross-linked structures.
_________________________________________________

Based on both of the above sets of information:

I must wholeheartedly disagree with your below postulate:
nubaseal said:
IMHO, both polyaminosiloxane and polyethylene-acrylic fall under the same category - Acrylic Polymers.
Click to expand...


Bob
 
Ok thanks. So is the Duragloss stuff different and capable of cross linking?
 
nubaseal said:
Ok thanks. So is the Duragloss stuff different and capable of cross linking?

FUNX725 said:
Can you be a little more specific...
Which Duragloss "stuff"?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
FWIW:

rwright said:
If they are acid based and that's how they bond to the paint, wouldn't that etch the paint to a degree? Especially with repeated use? Sounds like it's time for a call to Duragloss.
Click to expand...
rwright said:
Great news! No Duragloss products are acrylic based.

Also, acrylic based may contain acid but not enough to etch paint.
Click to expand...

Or:
:idea:

(For further verification): You could call Duragloss yourself...


Bob
 
.brian. said:
Interesting. I would like to know if there is any truth to this, as I have been topping 105 with Collinite 845 for the past 2 years.
Click to expand...

I always find it interesting to read the posts of those more proficient in chemistry than I, especially anything written by Dr. G, but in the real world of a DD parked outside 24/7 in the PA winters, layering of different products just flat works. This past October I did one of the family fleet with DG105, followed by Colli 476 the next morning. Using the commonly accepted yardstick of beading and sheeting, it was still very much there in May when I got out the polisher for my spring freshen-up. As a comparison, the previous winter's prep was a single coat of 476 and it was just about gone by March. I know the principle of diminishing returns applies here, as two coats of wax certainly would not give twice the duration of a single coat, but when you're just trying to keep some protection between your paint and the elements over a tough winter, two is better than one, even if they're not wearing the same brand labels.

Bill
 
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