ERASER vs. IPA (+ VIDEO)

[CEE DOG]

Eraser vs. IPA

I also added this update to my full review which you can find here: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/product-reviews/42133-review-carpro-eraser.html

Intro:

After reading my recent review on CarPro Eraser I had one member ask me how Eraser compared to IPA so it occurred to me that I must not have done a clear job of showing this. Visually I hadn’t shown the two side by side with a test so here we go!


The Test:

The video tells the story but basically I applied Poor Boys Black Hole (a glaze with fillers) to the top of the panel and 3M Ultrafina (an oily polish) to the bottom of the panel. Then I stripped one side with Eraser and one side with IPA.

The IPA was a very strong dilution by any of the standards I have seen written (25% IPA and 75% water) And, yes that does take into account the percentage of IPA I started with.

I based my ratio of IPA mix on what Dr. G told me in my Q&A with him about IPA and also what Mike Phillips wrote in his article on the subject. Mikes article also relied on other chemists in the industry. Here is a partial quote from Dr. G in the Q&A I just referenced.

“I would follow the recommendations that Mike Phillips has made of 10-25% IPA in water as a safe cleaning solution. The reason for this wide range is due to the variations in the clear coat paint systems. Therefore, when dealing with a soft clear coat or for those who notice a great deal of softening effect, they should stay at the lower end of the range while others can use the upper limit. Of course, the greater the percentage of IPA, the faster it will remove the oils.”

So as you can see I picked a heavy ratio of IPA.

I also went out of the way to place lots of oils on the paint before stripping it with each product.


Video: Eraser vs. IPA

Conclusion:

CarPro Eraser removed all of the oils more thoroughly than the strong mix of IPA. As you saw in the video some spots on the IPA treated side still had oil of some kind on the surface.

Do those spots that still have oil matter?

Well, if your goal was to remove the oils and some are left then obviously they matter.

If checking your paint after polishing to make sure you achieved a perfect finish I say yes it matters (obviously).

If applying a coating that does rely on a completely oil free finish they matter a great deal. Obviously your coating wouldn’t have the same durability on those spots and my theory is that even worse your applicator would spread some of the oils from those spots and compromise the durability of the coating in other areas as well. That is just my theory and I could be way off but there you have it.

If applying a polymer sealant or wax the remaining oils left by IPA don’t matter near as much as if you are applying some of the nano coatings that rely on a completely oil free surface. How much they do matter I don’t know the definitive answer to that.


--- Update on Dust Resistance ---

I watched my test panel that was kept out of the rain for 1 week and could find no difference in the dust resistance between IPA and Eraser.

 

[DARK HORSE]

Great comparison Corey, thanks for doing it!!

 

[Harleyguy]

Thanks again Corey for taking the time and effort to produce these very informative reviews and sorry about your camera let me know when the services are so I can pay my respects .

 

[tw33k2514]

Now I am sold. Thank you very much for taking the time to do this.

 

[umi000]

Corey, Avi has confirmed here on AG that Eraser has an IPA content of 30 to 50 percent. Given that this is above the 25% recommendation of Dr. G, aren't you concerned about the softening effect it might have on the paint? I guess I'm just a little bemused that people seem to be very wary about using IPA at too high a concentration, while at the same time are raving about a product that has a similarly high concentration of IPA in its formulation.

 

[CEE DOG]

Great comparison Corey, thanks for doing it!!

My pleasure buddy!!

Thanks again Corey for taking the time and effort to produce these very informative reviews and sorry about your camera let me know when the services are so I can pay my respects .

Thank you Adam, I will be sure to send you an invite to the funeral.

Now I am sold. Thank you very much for taking the time to do this.

My pleasure, thank you.

Corey, Avi has confirmed here on AG that Eraser has an IPA content of 30 to 50 percent. Given that this is above the 25% recommendation of Dr. G, aren't you concerned about the softening effect it might have on the paint? I guess I'm just a little bemused that people seem to be very wary about using IPA at too high a concentration, while at the same time are raving about a product that has a similarly high concentration of IPA in its formulation.

Well, I'm not concerned about the alcohol hurting the paint as long as you don't get crazy.

I have never seen marring from using IPA even at strong dilutions. I'm assuming you are worried about it softening the paint temporarily and allowing marring when you use the mf towel. Then again I must not have ever worked on paint that's extra soft. I have worked on relatively soft paint though and haven't gotten it.

I would love to see some documentation of IPA causing a mf towel to mar. I believe those who say this but I don't know if it's due to only the IPA or the towels as well.

Have you used IPA and seen marring from it?

Polishing paint heats it up and softens it temporarily as well so...


Anyway, awhile back I asked Dr. G some questions about IPA and as always he was kind enough to educate me further on the subject.

Courtesy of Dr. G of Optimum:

There is a lot of confusing information about solvents in general and IPA in particular. Let's limit our scope to cross-linked (enamel) clear coat finishes since that is the paint system on the majority of the cars we are talking about. Although there are many different paint systems being used, in all cases with this type of paint, IPA or other solvents will penetrate the paint and cause some swelling. Depending on the solvent, the degree of swelling varies and in some cases like with methylene chloride (within seconds) and MEK (within minutes), it can swell it to the point of delamination. IPA and mineral spirits do swell the paint but not to the same level of course.

As the paint swells and expands, it also becomes softer. Since there are many different types of paints being used, some paints might soften to the point that even a gentle wipe down might cause micro marring while others may not mar even at much higher solvent concentrations. That might explain the variations in some of the observations different people have reported.

While fast solvents such as IPA may fully evaporate at higher temperatures (e.g. 90 F) within hours, slower solvents like MS may take several days before they reach levels below 1%. But the notion that the solvents may be trapped in the paint forever or that the paint will soften permanently is absurd since clear coat paints start off with anywhere from 20-70% solvents and if this theory had any validity, then all paints should stay soft and/or some of the solvents should be trapped within the paint forever.

After this brief introduction, let me respond to your specific questions:

Is IPA safe for paint and in what dilution?

I would follow the recommendations of 10-25% IPA in water as a safe cleaning solution. The reason for this wide range is due to the variations in the clear coat paint systems. Therefore, when dealing with a soft clear coat or for those who notice a great deal of softening effect, they should stay at the lower end of the range while others can use the upper limit. Of course, the greater the percentage of IPA, the faster it will remove the oils.

Does it soften the paint either temporarily or permanently?

While straight IPA or even 70% IPA can soften the paint excessively, as you increase the water level, the softening effect drops exponentially. In any case, as I explained earlier the softening effect is temporary.

 

[Hoytman]

Corey, Avi has confirmed here on AG that Eraser has an IPA content of 30 to 50 percent.

This is a large tolerance range in comparison to using a mere 25% of IPA. Any ratio higher than the 25% is, well, stronger than simply using IPA. Apples, and oranges it seems.

Given that this is above the 25% recommendation of Dr. G, aren't you concerned about the softening effect it might have on the paint?

I haven't seen Dr. G's recommendation, but if there's evidence of softening the paint it would be a valid concern.

However, from what I've seen using IPA in anything but it's purest form, i.e. 70%-90%, and on objects other than paint I might add, the IPA lingers longer on that object. So here's my thought. It either evaporates fast or it doesn't, and anything lingering obviously lasts longer on that object. Now, for paint usage this would translate to me, the lingering that is, to be a bad thing. I want the oil gone ASAP, and I want the IPA gone ASAP. This doesn't mean that I know what I'm talking about for paint purposes. However, I've used several strippers (for use specifically on automotive paint) to wipe down humongous electric panels and those products did indeed soften the automotive paint. I would say that softening is a concern using any product.

I guess I'm just a little bemused that people seem to be very wary about using IPA at too high a concentration, while at the same time are raving about a product that has a similarly high concentration of IPA in its formulation.

I tend to agree. Especially when IPA cost next to nothing in comparison. A once-over with any product to remove oils isn't even considered on this end, and given that, using IPA to wipe down a couple more times doesn't bother me. I'd do two complete wipe downs anyhow. Two at the least.

It's obvious from Corey's testing that the 25% did remove quite a bit of the oils, so a twice or third time over should have no problem removing them all. The cost to time ratio seems on the side of IPA.

Corey, as usual has done an excellent job in this revue, so my comments aren't in anyway directed at him or his test.

I would like to point out that until the exact amount (and I'm sure Avi will not disclose) of alcohol content is known then to compare the two with differing amounts of alcohol isn't exactly apples and apples; isn't an equal comparison.

If indeed Dr. G is correct in recommending no more than 25% alcohol content, then it would seems that any solution above this has the chance of softening paint.

 

[CEE DOG]

Bill, thanks for your insight and good debate.

Check the video again. I sprayed it down and wiped it 3 times with IPA with 3 different sides of the towel.

Also, check my post above for what Dr. G said to me when I asked him about IPA.

 

[Avi@CarPro]

Bill and UMI000, you are missing the whole point here and what Corey tried to proof.
even if you will use 100% ipa you will still might have oily spots leftovers
because IPA doesnt dissolve oil or solvents!! its only "lifting" it above surface , so while wiping you could distribute it again back to surface.
i guess Corey done this test since some guys here asked him how its compared to IPA/water. so umi000 , Corey is not "raving" this product! (correct me if i understood it wrong)
i think the most objective ,thorough reviews done by Corey are as real as it can be. if ipa/water worked better he would have say that as well.and not "Raving the product".

as Bill said we will not disclose the secret how its work , but Eraser is not only ipa/water mixture as you might think . its very safe to use on soft paint.

 

[Twister]

I have to back up Corey's results. I used Eraser for the first time a few weeks ago. When I tried IPA I saw some beading which led me to believe oils were still there. When I tested with Eraser I found no evidence of oils being left behind.

Eraser isn't grabby either which I really like

 

[FUNX650]

Bill and UMI000, you are missing the whole point here and what Corey tried to proof.
even if you will use 100% ipa you will still might have oily spots leftovers
because IPA doesnt dissolve oil or solvents!! its only "lifting" it above surface , so while wiping you could distribute it again back to surface.
i guess Corey done this test since some guys here asked him how its compared to IPA/water. so umi000 , Corey is not "raving" this product! (correct me if i understood it wrong)
i think the most objective ,thorough reviews done by Corey are as real as it can be. if ipa/water worked better he would have say that as well.and not "Raving the product".

as Bill said we will not disclose the secret how its work , but Eraser is not only ipa/water mixture as you might think . its very safe to use on soft paint.

Hi Avi...

As you have stated above:

...if you will use 100% ipa you will still might have oily spots leftovers

...so while wiping you could distribute it again back to surface.

...as Bill said we will not disclose the secret how its work , but Eraser is not only ipa/water mixture as you might think .


IMO...Quite a few variables here: Might, could, is not only ipa/water mixture.....these intangibles make for very interesting debate.


Back to the "not only IPA/Water mixture":

Following are some common solvents and their relative strength on a scale of 1-10...(with 10 being the "strongest").
Would you be so kind to state exactly where you place/rank your Erasure product at in this outline? Thanks.

-Toluene: 10/10
-Benzene: 9/10
-Butyl Alcohol: 8/10
-Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK): 7/10
-Acetone: 6/10
-Denatured alcohol (Ethanol): 5/10
-Mineral Spirits (Stoddard Solvent): 4/10
-Isopropyl alcohol (IPA): 3/10
-Ethylene Glycol: 2/10
-Distilled Water: 1/10

[Source: autopia.org]


Thanks again, Avi, for your attention to this matter.


BTW...
Hi Corey: I never tire of your reviews...Keep up the good work!!!



Bob

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Nevermind

 

[dsottum]

What about using Dawn to strip oils as opposed to IPA or Eraser? Before I OC2.0'ed my DD I did 105/205 for correction and then gave a few spritz of 25% IPA on each panel before foaming the vehicle with Dawn and had zero beading afterwards. Granted this is not a practical way to check your surface during correction, but it was a very powerful way to remove all oils before applying OC2.0. I'm just not certain how much of it was unnecessary overkill.

 

[fredcandetail]

25% IPA on a 32oz bottle is 24oz water and 8oz (70-90iso alch) ??? Is that right?
I have found Megs GlassCleaner to effectively strip oils prior to waxing ... If I did 30oz of water and 2 oz concentrate what percentage alcohol would that be?????

 

[IID]

Corey,you are a great contributor to this (and other) forums.The reviews you create are truly remarkable and I am grateful that I belong to forum(s) you participate and share your reviews with rops:.

Since I posted this thread:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/new-car-care-products/40208-carpro-really-stepping-up-eraser.html?highlight=CarPro
My experience with CarPro's "Eraser" has been,the product works excellent and performs as advertised.
I've been a fan of CarPro's Eraser since I tried it for the first time and I use it on every exterior detail I perform regardless if I'm doing a full 3 stage correction or just a wash and protect.
I am eagerly waiting for the larger size offerings of Eraser to increase from the current 1L bottle offering.

Again,Thank You for ALL your time and effort to create this review and sharing it with us all!

 

[CEE DOG]

Just something quick I wanted to note.

BTW...
Hi Corey: I never tire of your reviews...Keep up the good work!!!


Bob

Bob, thank you for your kind words and for all of your informative contributions as well!! rops:

What about using Dawn to strip oils as opposed to IPA or Eraser? Before I OC2.0'ed my DD I did 105/205 for correction and then gave a few spritz of 25% IPA on each panel before foaming the vehicle with Dawn and had zero beading afterwards. Granted this is not a practical way to check your surface during correction, but it was a very powerful way to remove all oils before applying OC2.0. I'm just not certain how much of it was unnecessary overkill.

Yes, as I mentioned in my actual Eraser Review (different thread) CarPro previously recomended a mix of IPA/H2O and Dawn to strip before coating with Cquartz. I believe the problem was different people were using different dish soaps at different ratios and having different results so CarPro created their formula to take that issue out of the equation. As I mentioned in the intro to that review I never liked the idea of placing dawn on my paint without rinsing it off so was happy to see Eraser come out.

To answer your question imo your method is sound for removing oils but is (as you said) more time consuming since you are rinsing off the Dawn.

Corey,you are a great contributor to this (and other) forums.The reviews you create are truly remarkable and I am grateful that I belong to forum(s) you participate and share your reviews with rops:.

Since I posted this thread:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/new-car-care-products/40208-carpro-really-stepping-up-eraser.html?highlight=CarPro
My experience with CarPro's "Eraser" has been,the product works excellent and performs as advertised.
I've been a fan of CarPro's Eraser since I tried it for the first time and I use it on every exterior detail I perform regardless if I'm doing a full 3 stage correction or just a wash and protect.
I am eagerly waiting for the larger size offerings of Eraser to increase from the current 1L bottle offering.

Again,Thank You for ALL your time and effort to create this review and sharing it with us all!

I really appreciate that Chris. The feeling is most definitely mutual. Thank you so much for your many contributions, unbiased opinions, and first hand professional knowledge that you share with all of us. Thank you for posting the link to your Eraser thread for everyone as well!

:dblthumb2:

 

[fredcandetail]

25% ipa on a 32oz bottle is 24oz water and 8oz (70-90iso alch) ??? Is that right?
I have found megs glasscleaner to effectively strip oils prior to waxing ... If i did 30oz of water and 2 oz concentrate what percentage alcohol would that be?????

bump

 

[Kitoy22]

Keep it coming guys, this is very interesting. Nice review Corey!:dblthumb2:

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I have found Megs GlassCleaner to effectively strip oils prior to waxing ...

Works very well at 5:1 for this.

 

[umi000]

Bill and UMI000, you are missing the whole point here and what Corey tried to proof.
even if you will use 100% ipa you will still might have oily spots leftovers
because IPA doesnt dissolve oil or solvents!! its only "lifting" it above surface , so while wiping you could distribute it again back to surface.
i guess Corey done this test since some guys here asked him how its compared to IPA/water. so umi000 , Corey is not "raving" this product! (correct me if i understood it wrong)
i think the most objective ,thorough reviews done by Corey are as real as it can be. if ipa/water worked better he would have say that as well.and not "Raving the product".

as Bill said we will not disclose the secret how its work , but Eraser is not only ipa/water mixture as you might think . its very safe to use on soft paint.

Avi, thanks for posting here - it is always helpful to discussions when the manufacturers themselves are involved.

Now, as to your post. To start of, I don't believe I am missing the point - perhaps you're missing the point of my post. I am not saying the product doesn't work - obviously it does. (And as an aside, I don't think there's anything wrong about raving about a product. It just means that people are enthusiastic about it, believe it works, and share this enthusiasm with other people. Also, please, don't put words into my mouth and imply that I said that Corey wasn't objective.) What I am concerned about is whether the product, given the IPA concentration that you yourself say it has, will have a softening effect on paint.

You say that it is safe for paint, even with the high IPA content it has - could I ask what testing you've done to say that this is so, and what methodology you used for those tests? Because your statement is in direct contradiction to what the various chemists Mike and Corey have talked with have stated - that using IPA in any concentration over 25% can soften your paint. It doesn't matter what else is in the mix - the IPA will soften the paint, unless those other chemicals negate the solvent effect of IPA - in which case, why use IPA at all, or use IPA in that concentration?

Now, I am not a chemist, and I'm more than willing to be proven wrong in this case - I will easily admit to being new to detailing, and to not having the specific car appearance maintenance knowledge that other people on here might have. However, as someone who has to deal with the hassle of getting products shipped overseas, I do tend to be particular about what I buy, which is why I will ask if I am not certain about how or why something works the way it does.

(Corey, my apologies for having derailed some of the discussion on this thread. Also, if you feel that I have in any way questioned your objectivity, then I apologize for making that impression; I feel that you make great contributions to the various detailing forums that you are a part of, and your reviews have always been great sources of information, with the thoroughness of your documentation, the frequent follow-up posts, and the objective manner you approach the products you work with.)