Extra Clearcoat. Would You Buy It As A Factory Applied Option?

[oldmodman]

No sanding or polishing was included in my speculative price.

Obviously we would get the car delivered with extra orange peel. That's what doing the sanding and polishing ourselves would be for.

Can you imagine what a terrible job the factory would make of it:buffing: with 60 grit.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I'm surprised to hear you say that. I understood Ceramiclear to be sometimes difficult to correct (hard)

Probably the most common thing I read others saying about Ceramiclear paints is that they are hard?

I 100% disagree. Post this all the time to when this topic comes up. I find Ceramiclear paints to correct easy.

If anyone has a copy of my how-to book, I think I know why some people post they find Ceramiclear paints to be hard, it's on pages 7 & 8.

and that much of the UV protection is in the uppermost area of the paint - so once it's gone, it's gone for good. Maybe I'm wrong.

Hmmm.... I don't know that the actual UV inhibitors are ONLY in the upper portion that's made up of fumed mica. It could be they are below the fumed mica or in the entire clear matrix of material.

I'm guessing it's more scratch resistant, so theoretically it would require less frequent polishing.

Throw in the factor that I've already educated Jim on how to take care of all his cars including wiping, washing and drying. He's completely aware that the way scratches are inflicted into a car's paint is by how the paint is "touched".

Of course, your recommendation may have been to someone with no interest in ever polishing paint or detailing their car - giving them Ceramiclear may be the best option for them.

Jim has no interest in polishing the paint on his car as that's what I do for him but he's acutely aware of what it takes to remove swirls and how to avoid them. He's been to at least one of my classes I teach for car clubs and a regular reader of this forum plus he owns and has read my how-to book.

So he paid to get the optional Ceramiclear finish knowing it is EXCELLENT at resisting scratches and he's going to do all the right things to avoid scratching it in the first place.

2014 Black Mercedes-Benz E350 detailed by Mike Phillips

And he's also read my article on this topic,


Ceramiclear Paints - Be Careful


So yeah... I recommended to him to get the Ceramiclear paint system. As long as a person is educated even just a little bit about what I call the 3 P's,

• Paint
• Products
• Procedures

They can minimize swirls and scratches and with the help of the Ceramiclear paint system maintain a show room new finish.

Good questions and musings...


:xyxthumbs:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Semi-related question: Would would it entail (and cost) to have a reputable body shop add several layers of clear to a brand new vehicle just delivered from the factory?

Great question and a question I wondered and asked a reputable body shop in Irvine, California while I was still working for Meguiar's. This shop was right down the road from Meguiar's Corporate office and they painted all our demo hoods when needed.

Back then, I had just purchased a 2004 Honda Pilot. It had 500 miles on it when I took it to their shop. I showed that it had zero damage and asked what it would cost to have them scuff it and then shoot 2 coats of clear.

They said real honestly they didn't want the job but if they took the job around $3000.00. Except when driving it this SUV was always garage kept and regularly washed and waxed by yours truly so I opted to live with what precious little clear came from Honda...

Here she is all pretty....

But I have used it for testing purposes....

Fingermarks


The white mineral deposits that make up what most people call Water Spots are on black paint.... guess whose vehicle?

3 - Types of Water Spots - Type I, Type II and Type III

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I understood Ceramiclear...much of the UV protection is in the uppermost area of the paint - so once it's gone, it's gone for good. Maybe I'm wrong.

I have heard this bandied about for regular clearcoat also...I think it's a misunderstanding of the chemists (perhaps Dr. G could clarify this since it's his area of expertise). I think regular clearcoat and perhaps Ceramiclear also, have uniform UV absorption through the thickness, it's just that there is a certain minimum thickness (minimum UV absorption) required to protect the basecoat. I think some erstwhile detailer when being told that if he removes the top half of the clearcoat the system will fail, extrapolated that into what became the urban legend that the UV protection is in the upper portion.

Ceramiclear may be different, but I find nothing in the product blurb that says "The patented nanoparticle technology {that} creates a highly cross-linked network at the surface of the coating for superior resistance to damage" enhances the UV protection.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike, out of curiosity, which Benz in particular offered Ceramiclear as an option?

was it part of the designo options?? my car came with it by default but that might be because it's AMG.

I don't know the answer to your question but I could make a simple phone call and find out... I just remember Jim telling me upon my recommendation when he ordered his new MB he paid extra for the Ceramiclear option.


FWIW

Years ago, when this new paint system was first introduced, I buffed out a Mercedes-Benz for a member of MBworld with a forum name of Afshin, I don't think he's active in the detailing discussion forum world but he might be, it's been a few years since I had any communication with him.

Here's the point, one year later after buffing out the MB he came to another detailing class with his car. Around lunch time I inspected the paint. I expected to see a finish filled with swirls and scratches even though Afshin is a Knowledgeable person on the topic of detailing. To my surprise the finish looked pretty much exactly like it did the day I wiped of the wax.

I was impressed with Ceramiclears way back then and I didn't really know or understand the paint technology like I do today.

I would NOT recommend a Ceramiclear finish to the average Joe Consumer, Mercedes-Benz owner or not. It's just to fancy or hi-tech for most people.

 

[TurboToys]

youd be hard pressed to find a manufacturer that would be able to just add that option without having a configuration specifically designed for it.

mostly all high volume manufacturers have paint booths on their assembly lines where everything rolls through and the robots go through spraying everything as they come through, you would have to stop the assembly line to allow the coat of clear to flash before applying another. and stopping an assembly line is a big no no.

 

[cardaddy]

Regarding Ceramiclear in today's Mercedes vehicles, it isn't available anymore.

This is from another forum, over a year ago.

"We can confirm with you that PPG’s Ceramiclear clear coat is a product that Mercedes-Benz co-developed and introduced nearly 10 years ago, and at that time it was the first clear coat to utilize nanotechnology for higher scratch resistance and reduced paint fade. Since then there have been several advancements and changes to clear coat technology as well as the overall paint process during vehicle production at the factory, not to mention changes in environmental regulations for chemical compositions used by the factory’s paint suppliers. In fact, PPG is currently not the paint supplier at any of the Mercedes-Benz factories in Germany.

It is important to note that manufacturer-approved paint suppliers vary by country as each country (and even province/state) has their own environmental laws that collision centres must adhere to. For example in the UK, Standox, Spies Hecker, and BASF are the approved paint suppliers for Mercedes-Benz collision centres; in the US, it is PPG, BASF, and Standox. In Canada, only BASF and Standox are the approved paint suppliers and you will find only one or the other at any authorized Mercedes-Benz collision centre.

We choose BASF as they have been a long-standing technology partner with Mercedes-Benz and parent company Daimler, and are currently the main paint supplier to the factory. From BASF’s product portfolio, we use the Glasurit line of water-based paint products as it not only meets the strict tolerances and requirements of Mercedes-Benz’s paint finishes, but it also meets the stringent low-VOC requirements as set by Ontario’s Ministry of Environment. Included in our Glasurit clearcoat are the same properties of high scratch-resistance that the factory’s clear coats apply, because being an authorized collision repair centre, we are bound to match factory finish. We hope that this information answers your questions and we thank you again for your inquiry."

Basically, MB has moved on to bigger and better options. I've even seen where some manufacturers are using more of an electrostatic coating process in their paint booth that is much closer to powder coating (with the associated hardness) than actual paint layering of old.

 

[wlshephard]

But would you have to buy the no orange peel package also?

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I've even seen where some manufacturers are using more of an electrostatic coating process in their paint booth that is much closer to powder coating (with the associated hardness) than actual paint layering of old.

Shoot 'daddy, they have been using electrostatic bells since the 70's, it uses a lot less paint, etc.

 

[custmsprty]

Depends on if I got 2-3x the thickness, or 2-3x the orange peel...

:laughing:

 

[cardaddy]

Shoot 'daddy, they have been using electrostatic bells since the 70's, it uses a lot less paint, etc.

That was my point. But to expound on that, some now are baking at higher temps. One of the shows I saw in the last few months was showing whole bodies going through the system, (sans running gear) at a (US?) BMW plant where they were shooting "powder clear". After it was applied it literally was dull like powder coating, (or base coat) and only turned glossy after being baked at something like 140°C/284°F for 30~35 minutes. It literally went on looking like base coat! They were looking at 120 mils of total film. Thought it was funny that the shells are dusted with Ostrich feathers before the entire process starts though! :laughing:

 

[chet31]

Yes I would, if not too expensive.

 

[Blackthorn One]

If there was box on the order form for a second and third coat of clear coat, along with fancy wheels, heated seats and so on, would you order it?

And how much would it be worth to you?

Automobile manufacturers are always looking for a new, easy profit center. Maybe we could get them to offer it. I doubt that it would cost them more than an extra twenty bucks a car.

I would be willing to pay an extra $250.00 per extra applied coat. Imagine being able to wet sand and perfect a new car to show car perfection and know that there was still double the protective clear coat that any other new car has stock.

That sounds like another gallon of paint. ( A lot of paint is lost in the air when spraying) A gallon of paint is a lot more than $20. It's more like $80. Then there is the cost of application. Could be a $500-$700 option. Be that as it may, of course I would pay it.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

That was my point. But to expound on that, some now are baking at higher temps. One of the shows I saw in the last few months was showing whole bodies going through the system, (sans running gear) at a (US?) BMW plant where they were shooting "powder clear". After it was applied it literally was dull like powder coating, (or base coat) and only turned glossy after being baked at something like 140°C/284°F for 30~35 minutes. It literally went on looking like base coat! They were looking at 120 mils of total film. Thought it was funny that the shells are dusted with Ostrich feathers before the entire process starts though! :laughing:

Oh ostrich feathers!!

Wait..Automotive - Powder Coatings Center - SpecialChem4Coatings

I wonder what the durability of THAT is (UV, scratches, chips) and what it's like to polish?

 

[Setec Astronomy]

That sounds like another gallon of paint. ( A lot of paint is lost in the air when spraying)

Maybe in a body shop, but not in the factory. That's what Cardaddy and I were referring to. The car companies (and appliance co's, etc.) have been using electrostatic methods for painting for 30+ years. This reduces overspray, which results in less paint, less filter changes in the booth, less emissions.

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