Fell for the sales pitch - Griots Garage Orbital

[rduchateau2954]

They got me. I fell for it and feel like an idiot.

Quick backstory. Ran a detail shop for a little over 6 years, no longer detail for money. Was extremely spoiled by vendors, never had mess with buying product retail. Always used a Makita rotary with 3m pads/products.

10 years after moving on and my poor truck needs a buff in a bad way. Do a bunch of research to see what's the bee's knees today and all I hear about is the Griots Garage orbital. "Almost as good as a rotary" "I almost never use my rotary anymore!" "This thing will take out wet sanding scratches!"

So, $250 to get setup with an orbital vs $400 for a rotary, everyone loves the orbital and I don't have to throw around a rotary? Sounds like a good deal to me.

Yeah no. It's an orbital. Better than orbitals of old, but it'll never touch a rotary.

Did a 3 step with Griots microfiber cutting pad, fast cutting cream, yellow perfecting foam with fast perfecting cream, black finishing pad with collinite. It made my sample door a good 10'er. As in it looks good from 10'. Any closer and you can still see scratches. This door had one scratch from a tree branch and a set of scratches from an overly excited dog bailing out the window. They are all still there and with the exception of the initial impact spot with the tree branch I know a rotary can take them out without wet sanding.

Tried a couple pics but it was hard to see it and my phone screen at the same time in the sun. Gonna take a day to decide if I want to send it all back or keep it for light duty stuff.

 

[rduchateau2954]

Picture of the branch scratch on the bed that I didn't touch today and picture of that scratch on the door after the 3 step.

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[rduchateau2954]

Dog scratches, no before pics but I'm sure y'all have seen them before.

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[PaulMys]

Sorry to hear of your experience with the Griot's machine.

Sounds like you didn't do enough research.

An orbital is no match for a rotary with paint defects like you described.

 

[rduchateau2954]

No I guess not, thought I did. Sitting there working on those scratches and I'm literally seeing all the forum posts about how great it is scrolling on the back on my eyelids.

Should have known better. I had a system that worked back then, it will still work now. Cheaped out and paid the price.

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[PaulMys]

No I guess not, thought I did. Sitting there working on those scratches and I'm literally seeing all the forum posts about how great it is scrolling on the back on my eyelids.

Should have known better. I had a system that worked back then, it will still work now. Cheaped out and paid the price.

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The Flex machines are the Big Bullies of orbitals, and the Griot's BOSS machines are extremely capable, but no match for the cutting power of the rotary like I said.

Good to hear your opinion/experience good or bad though. And welcome to the forum.

 

[Dr Oldz]

I agree that nothing beats the power and speed of a rotary. If you are looking for a DA that can come close you need a forced rotation Da such as the flex 3401. With the right pads/polishes you can remove some serious defects with a random orbital but it will take much longer than the rotary. The reason DA polishers have become popular is their ability to finish hologram free. The safety of a DA does come with a loss in power and speed tho. A lot of people use the hybrid polishing technique which is compounding with a rotary and final polishing with a DA. Also welcome to the Forum.

 

[MarkD51]

A Man (Detailer) is only as good as his/her tools, and the knowledge, experience, and proficiency of how, and when to use them I reckon.

 

[MarkD51]

I agree that nothing beats the power and speed of a rotary. If you are looking for a DA that can come close you need a forced rotation Da such as the flex 3401. With the right pads/polishes you can remove some serious defects with a random orbital but it will take much longer than the rotary. The reason DA polishers have become popular is their ability to finish hologram free. The safety of a DA does come with a loss in power and speed tho. A lot of people use the hybrid polishing technique which is compounding with a rotary and final polishing with a DA. Also welcome to the Forum.

30-35 years ago, that was about the only choice I had, as did basically all others, you learned by hook or crook to use a rotary, and then what I used to commonly do, was finish with one of the orbital waxers to help even the finish, reduce-remove any traces of buffer trails (holograms) and would usually finish with a one step product,

Thus this would kill a few birds with one stone with the waxer machine, and would add a protective wax also. All that was needed after was a finish wipe down and detail, remove residues and whatever spatter from cracks, seams, near badges, glass, trim, etc.

Oh, and remove the pea sized "Eye Doody" out of my eyes from all the dust and fibers, and product flying off the rotary. LOL

 

[rduchateau2954]

I agree that nothing beats the power and speed of a rotary. If you are looking for a DA that can come close you need a forced rotation Da such as the flex 3401. With the right pads/polishes you can remove some serious defects with a random orbital but it will take much longer than the rotary. The reason DA polishers have become popular is their ability to finish hologram free. The safety of a DA does come with a loss in power and speed tho. A lot of people use the hybrid polishing technique which is compounding with a rotary and final polishing with a DA. Also welcome to the Forum.

Thanks Paul.

Dr. Oldz. I'm just gonna get a rotary. I never had halo issues with 3m stuff.

My mistake was when I hear orbital I think of those dual t handle things you see at Walmart kinda thing.

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[Dr Oldz]

30-35 years ago, that was about the only choice I had, as did basically all others, you learned by hook or crook to use a rotary, and then what I used to commonly do, was finish with one of the orbital waxers to help even the finish, reduce-remove any traces of buffer trails (holograms) and would usually finish with a one step product,

Thus this would kill a few birds with one stone with the waxer machine, and would add a protective wax also. All that was needed after was a finish wipe down and detail, remove residues and whatever spatter from cracks, seams, near badges, glass, trim, etc.

Oh, and remove the pea sized "Eye Doody" out of my eyes from all the dust and fibers, and product flying off the rotary. LOL

I hear that buddy. If I could go back in time I wouldnt be too proud of my work I don’t believe. Although it was always the best with what I had available. Technology has definitely helped us detailer a along.

 

[dlc95]

Yeah, an orbital is a totally different animal.

You sort of have to approach it like machine sanding, which is a totally different technique than the sort of "grinder" action of a rotary.

I don't know if you've ever wet sanded with an orbital, and if not, give it a try on a scrap panel. Once you do, you can sort of transfer the technique to orbital compounding/polishing.

 

[MarkD51]

I hear that buddy. If I could go back in time I wouldnt be too proud of my work I don’t believe. Although it was always the best with what I had available. Technology has definitely helped us detailer a along.

Back in the day, I'd call myself a "hack" when it came to Rotary use, preferring at all costs to not have to use one. While I leaned the basics, I never had the high level of expertise to come along and refine let's say a Lacquer finish on a vehicle that just rolled out of a paint booth, then wet sand, and compound-polish.

I haven't picked up my Rotary in many years, and the last times I used it, preferred generally to solely use Machine Glazes, and the fairly large diameter Waffle Foam Pads. I might see a time where I may wish to outfit it with smaller Backing Plates, possibly an Extension Shaft, and using some of the D/A Pads like I've seen some use.

As some have mentioned the reasons for buying a D/A, I think the reasons are fairly common, in that many hobbyists like the idea that with a D/A, it is harder to damage a paint finish.

Trust that I screwed up with a Rotary myself on a couple occasions, once burning a rear quarter panel edge down to primer, and thank God it was basically a junk-mobile, and the owner did not care, and then another time at a rear Chrome Bumper, and the Pad-Backing Plate became jammed in the recess between Bumper and Body, whipped around, and I had a nice lovely burn-mar that took a good deal of time by hand to eliminate the damage I caused.

I can recall once watching a Vid from the Junkman, and he was once explaining the variety of Machines available today. When he picked up the Flex 3401, he did say "Now this bad boy can burn a finish if you're not careful". Yes, harder to do than a Rotary I assume, I never used a Flex 3401.

For now, and for my personal uses, the D/A suits my needs just fine.

 

[MarkD51]

More recently, I was watching an acquaintance buff out a Burgundy 1969 Camaro SS-350 with a Rotary. Since it needed just a light clean-up and polish, I asked him if he's ever used a D/A for polishing, and he said no.

His opinion was that if he was not "heating" the paint up, a D/A was then likely to be a poor choice of a machine to polish and refine a paint finish, and in no way could be comparable to what a Rotary Machine can do because of that quality.

I said "well yeah, and no". That yes, heat is generated in any instance to a degree, and with either machine when using abrasive compounds and polishes, but heat can also be a deadly enemy to paint too.

I further used the analogy "that when a person only has hammer as a tool, everything then looks like a nail".

Thus I further explained that a detailer can reap great advantage by having a variety of tools in his/her arsenal. As one example I mentioned, let's say you're polishing A and B Pillars on a vehicle, and then using a 7" Backing Plate and Pad on a Rotary to accomplish correcting-polishing such? Far from optimal.

After his first attempts, there was quite a good deal of buffer haze left, meaning go back again with milder polishes, 2 more times he had to.

And of course this is common procedure with a D/A as well in certain cases, but I again mentioned that what he was doing could've been more easily accomplished with a D/A and the right Pads and Products in one go, in that less is often more, and the principle idea is to accomplish the task set before you and doing the least amount of paint removal possible.

 

[rduchateau2954]

I mean, it didn't not make the truck look better. It just wasn't the wonder machine that it was made out to be. Looking back it seems a lot of what I read may have been people who were not comfortable with a rotary trying to convince themselves.

Question now is what to do with it? 3/6 pads are open and used, both compounds have been opened.

I should be able to get my hands on a rotary with 3m pads/compounds. I'm kinda thinking if I give it a real buff I should be able to use the orbital to maintain the finish. It is pretty nifty for waxing.

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[MarkD51]

I mean, it didn't not make the truck look better. It just wasn't the wonder machine that it was made out to be. Looking back it seems a lot of what I read may have been people who were not comfortable with a rotary trying to convince themselves.

Question now is what to do with it? 3/6 pads are open and used, both compounds have been opened.

I should be able to get my hands on a rotary with 3m pads/compounds. I'm kinda thinking if I give it a real buff I should be able to use the orbital to maintain the finish. It is pretty nifty for waxing.

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The degree of correction with a D/A will depend upon the combination of what Polishes-Compounds and Pads are used. And as well arm speed, downward pressure and the number of section passes.

That, and the period of "workability-time" of any chosen correcting product.

Although I've never much used them, commonly for a greater degree of correction with compounds with a D/A most then resort to using Microfiber Pads. Or the most aggressive Foam Pads. And yeah, you'll remove deeper isolated scratches, but also may cause buffing haze, especially on softer paint finishes, and thus will need to come back again and follow up with a milder product, and less aggressive pads.

Principles are of course the same. The eye, inspection, and experience are paramount. With modern day finishes, as they say, the thickness of a clear coat is about as thick as a Post-It Note. There's only so far one can go before compromising and permanently damaging the top layer clear coat.

 

[SWETM]

Which Griots Garage polisher did you buy?

An 21mm longthrow polisher with an aggressive combo of compound and pad can do some great cutting. And it don't takes that off a longer time to compound than with a rotary. Have in mind that I still think that for pro detailers that compound heavy defects I would use a rotary polisher as a first step. But for refineing a paint I think you do that faster with a longthrow polisher with better results. If you used to a rotary polisher the easiest step to a DA is to get a direct-drivenDA like Rupes Mille or Makita po5000c or Flex 3401vrg polishers.

 

[rduchateau2954]

The degree of correction with a D/A will depend upon the combination of what Polishes-Compounds and Pads are used. And as well arm speed, downward pressure and the number of section passes.

That, and the period of "workability-time" of any chosen correcting product.

Although I've never much used them, commonly for a greater degree of correction with compounds with a D/A most then resort to using Microfiber Pads. Or the most aggressive Foam Pads. And yeah, you'll remove deeper isolated scratches, but also may cause buffing haze, especially on softer paint finishes, and thus will need to come back again and follow up with a milder product, and less aggressive pads.

Principles are of course the same. The eye, inspection, and experience are paramount. With modern day finishes, as they say, the thickness of a clear coat is about as thick as a Post-It Note. There's only so far one can go before compromising and permanently damaging the top layer clear coat.

I have the microfiber pads with the fast cutting cream. Tried various pressures, etc. At one point I turned it up to 6 and just held it there. Nada.

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[rduchateau2954]

Which Griots Garage polisher did you buy?

An 21mm longthrow polisher with an aggressive combo of compound and pad can do some great cutting. And it don't takes that off a longer time to compound than with a rotary. Have in mind that I still think that for pro detailers that compound heavy defects I would use a rotary polisher as a first step. But for refineing a paint I think you do that faster with a longthrow polisher with better results. If you used to a rotary polisher the easiest step to a DA is to get a direct-drivenDA like Rupes Mille or Makita po5000c or Flex 3401vrg polishers.

I bought the 8mm throw. Back in "the day" I used a Makita with 3m pads and compounds. The Makita worked great but to get set up from scratch would have been about $150 more than the orbital.

I figured with the rave reviews on the orbital plus how often am I going to need to cut with a rotary when I'm just doing my vehicles I could get away without it.

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[RTexasF]

Just curious......did you use 6" pads and backing plate or go to smaller plate and 5 - 5.25" pads?
The work at hand might have been more than the machine is capable of regardless of pad size but smaller pads do make a difference.