Flex - first time experience

Thanks for your review and for starting an interesting discussion. I bought a Flex 3401 a few months ago, and despite my initial trepidation (being a small woman with puny arms!) I got along just great with it, even on the doors and vertical panels. My arms were tired, but it really saved my wonky elbow from any more damage - just wiping off the polish and claying etc was enough wear and tear. (The Flex PE8 was another story…in a bit of love/hate relationship with that one!)

I know what you mean about the "buffer trails" - I was always looking for the trail to make sure that I had an adequate amount of polish on the pad. I was using the Wolfgang Finishing Glaze, and I think it's meant to only be used for 3 or 4 passes, not 6. I'm also working in the very dry air in New Mexico. I found spritzing the pad with WG Detail Spritz - and not just priming the pad - allowed the polish to work for an extra pass or two and kept everything moist a little longer.
 
Possibly have an answer and solved Flex vs Rupes technique question: I saw this from Todd Helme (I think a Rupes representative) in another forum:

"Polishing power is mostly a result of friction. Friction is mostly a factor of pad movement across the paint's surface (augmented, of course, by the pad type as well abrasive type/amount). A large-throw machine, like the 21mm stroke that RUPES designed, gets the overwhelming amount of it's movement (thus friction) from the orbital movement of the tool. I have removed 1500 grit sanding scratches in front of people at SEMA while preventing the pad from rotating at all."

When the pad stalls (stops rotating) as a result of friction at the paint surface (the pad encounters a contour for example that creates a point of drag) then you do run the risk of the foam pad absorbing some of the orbital action - thus you get a double whammy (no rotation / loss of orbital action) which can result in less-than-optimal results. [THIS WAS TOTALLY ME AND PROBABLY A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBLEM WITH TECHNIQUE - INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON PAD ROTATION JUST LET THE PAD OSCILLATE???? - CLEARLY THAT PUTS RUPES IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT LIGHT; YOU CAN POLISH WITH NO PAD ROTATION.]

What to do?

First, use foam pads that are designed for orbital action. Standard rotary pads are too soft and are too likely to absorb the orbital action, like a glob of Jello giggling on itself.
Second, increase pressure. By adding some compression to the foam you ensure that you are transferring the orbital action of the tool more effectively to the paint's surface. Don't push down super hard, just firmly apply pressure.

Pad rotation is nice as it certainly increases pad movement as well as help the scratch pattern to cross-hatch resulting in a better finish, but it isn't necessary - even for heavy correction."

Based on the above, I would surmise and speculate (but clearly can't prove) that Rupes pad rotation is important but not critical. He actually stated that you can polish with the pad not spinning so your technique would be just have the Rupes on the paint and let the machine do the work, rotation may speed things up but it doesn't really matter. See the last sentence. I find this very interesting and it is the first time I have seen someone say that pad rotation isn't "necessary - even for heavy correction".

I was always focused on pad rotation (ie mark your backing plate mike phillips) but maybe this isn't critical and all that matters is having the polisher on the paint and let it do its work. I would like to know how other detailers feel about this. Also, a great test would be Flex spinning vs Rupes not spinning but orbiting and see the results in terms of time - correction/finishing i would imagine will be close or the same but time difference may be large. If time doesn't matter then depending on how you feel about smoothness Rupes may be right for you. For me, time is very important and Flex based on my experience allows me to polish finish in a reasonable amount of time.
 
I say use what works best for you. I have a Flex and a PC. Since using the Flex I rarely pick up the PC, except for tight areas. Someone else commented out of the two machines he prefers the PC. Flex-Rupes I don't think one is better than the other, they are both great machines, just different. It's a matter of finding out what works best for you and your style of polishing.
 
mbpress01 said:
Possibly have an answer and solved Flex vs Rupes technique question: I saw this from Todd Helme (I think a Rupes representative) in another forum:

"Polishing power is mostly a result of friction. Friction is mostly a factor of pad movement across the paint's surface (augmented, of course, by the pad type as well abrasive type/amount). A large-throw machine, like the 21mm stroke that RUPES designed, gets the overwhelming amount of it's movement (thus friction) from the orbital movement of the tool. I have removed 1500 grit sanding scratches in front of people at SEMA while preventing the pad from rotating at all."

When the pad stalls (stops rotating) as a result of friction at the paint surface (the pad encounters a contour for example that creates a point of drag) then you do run the risk of the foam pad absorbing some of the orbital action - thus you get a double whammy (no rotation / loss of orbital action) which can result in less-than-optimal results. [THIS WAS TOTALLY ME AND PROBABLY A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBLEM WITH TECHNIQUE - INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON PAD ROTATION JUST LET THE PAD OSCILLATE???? - CLEARLY THAT PUTS RUPES IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT LIGHT; YOU CAN POLISH WITH NO PAD ROTATION.]

What to do?

First, use foam pads that are designed for orbital action. Standard rotary pads are too soft and are too likely to absorb the orbital action, like a glob of Jello giggling on itself.
Second, increase pressure. By adding some compression to the foam you ensure that you are transferring the orbital action of the tool more effectively to the paint's surface. Don't push down super hard, just firmly apply pressure.

Pad rotation is nice as it certainly increases pad movement as well as help the scratch pattern to cross-hatch resulting in a better finish, but it isn't necessary - even for heavy correction."

Based on the above, I would surmise and speculate (but clearly can't prove) that Rupes pad rotation is important but not critical. He actually stated that you can polish with the pad not spinning so your technique would be just have the Rupes on the paint and let the machine do the work, rotation may speed things up but it doesn't really matter. See the last sentence. I find this very interesting and it is the first time I have seen someone say that pad rotation isn't "necessary - even for heavy correction".

I was always focused on pad rotation (ie mark your backing plate mike phillips) but maybe this isn't critical and all that matters is having the polisher on the paint and let it do its work. I would like to know how other detailers feel about this. Also, a great test would be Flex spinning vs Rupes not spinning but orbiting and see the results in terms of time - correction/finishing i would imagine will be close or the same but time difference may be large. If time doesn't matter then depending on how you feel about smoothness Rupes may be right for you. For me, time is very important and Flex based on my experience allows me to polish finish in a reasonable amount of time.
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According to that info. it seems like the 21 would be the best Rupes to get then. The Duetto and Mini would most likely be more like any other DA when they stall (not do very much correcting). It makes sense that correcting can still be accomplished without pad rotation, but it seems like it would take a lot longer.
 
MIsnowman said:
According to that info. it seems like the 21 would be the best Rupes to get then. The Duetto and Mini would most likely be more like any other DA when they stall (not do very much correcting). It makes sense that correcting can still be accomplished without pad rotation, but it seems like it would take a lot longer.
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Actually, my Rupes Mini stalls a lot less frequently than my Rupes 21. It's pretty easy to stop the Rupes 21 on a curved or concave panel, but my Rupes 75e never stops, especially above speed 4. I actually find that my Rupes Mini corrects defects faster than my 21, but it would take a long time to do a whole car with a 4" pad.
 
Fotomatt1. Thx for that. My exact experience was the same as yours. The mini is much easier to control and when you hit a curvy vertical panel it is easy to keep the pad flat and spin. But the whole point in the flex rupes debate is settled, at least for me. I had massive issues with pad stall stop and all I heard was change your technique. This, I believe,is fine but (and this is critical) for Rupes at least YOU DONT HAVE TO HAVE THE PAD SPIN TO CORRECT OR FINISH. To me I think in the 3 yrs of research and real world testing I finally had the answer and I thought this was real news and thought I would have seen 1000s of comments but the response was "meh, who cares". I can't figure it out since we have a rupes representative saying spinning is not critical - it is the long throw that matters. I find it amazing in that all the discussion of rupes this was never noted anywhere or if it was it was not emphasized. Sure pad rotation helps speed things up but it is not that critical. For now I am sticking with the flex since I mentally feel better if I see the pad spin and the correction finishing vs the time is remarkable. Smoothness is subjective and I didn't find flex to be that different than rupes. Also and just as critical, the polishes do matter (as per Mike P) so spend your money on the best abrasive product and that will make a difference and maybe more so than the tool or technique.

Any comments welcomed.
 
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I love my Rupes ......... I also love my DeWalt rotary.

No need for anything else in my arsenal. Learn how to use the rotary and you'll never look back.
 
mbpress01 said:
Fotomatt1. Thx for that. My exact experience was the same as yours. The mini is much easier to control and when you hit a curvy vertical panel it is easy to keep the pad flat and spin. But the whole point in the flex rupes debate is settled, at least for me. I had massive issues with pad stall stop and all I heard was change your technique. This, I believe,is fine but (and this is critical) for Rupes at least YOU DONT HAVE TO HAVE THE PAD SPIN TO CORRECT OR FINISH. To me I think in the 3 yrs of research and real world testing I finally had the answer and I thought this was real news and thought I would have seen 1000s of comments but the response was "meh, who cares". I can't figure it out since we have a rupes representative saying spinning is not critical - it is the long throw that matters. I find it amazing in that all the discussion of rupes this was never noted anywhere or if it was it was not emphasized. Sure pad rotation helps speed things up but it is not that critical. For now I am sticking with the flex since I mentally feel better if I see the pad spin and the correction finishing vs the time is remarkable. Smoothness is subjective and I didn't find flex to be that different than rupes. Also and just as critical, the polishes do matter (as per Mike P) so spend your money on the best abrasive product and that will make a difference and maybe more so than the tool or technique.

Any comments welcomed.
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I thought your other post was interesting, but to me it doesn't seem practical. Everyone knows that a rotary is king when it comes to speed of correction. How much throw does a rotary have? Not much.......unless your pad is way off center. lol The Rupes might still correct without pad rotation, but it can't be nearly as efficient as it is when the pad is spinning. One of the pros to the Rupes that I've read several times is the ability to reach faster rotation speeds than the flex's gear drive setup. If rotation isn't important why is that a pro? It sounds to me like Rupes is trying to downplay the many complaints of stalling by pointing out that it can still correct even if the pad isn't rotating.
 
MIsnowman said:
If rotation isn't important why is that a pro? It sounds to me like Rupes is trying to downplay the many complaints of stalling by pointing out that it can still correct even if the pad isn't rotating.
Click to expand...

Actually that wasn't a Rupes claim, it was a Todd Helme statement in a recent post, and it's slightly out of context. The gist of his statement was that while good pad rotation would give you a better finish with the Rupes due to crosshatching with both rotation and throw, that the Rupe's large amount of throw was more than capable of doing a complete correction with no rotation at all. That correction ultimately came down to sufficient pad movement, which would still exist with the Rupes even barring no rotation.
 
mbpress01 said:
Possibly have an answer and solved Flex vs Rupes technique question: I saw this from Todd Helme (I think a Rupes representative) in another forum:

"Polishing power is mostly a result of friction. Friction is mostly a factor of pad movement across the paint's surface (augmented, of course, by the pad type as well abrasive type/amount). A large-throw machine, like the 21mm stroke that RUPES designed, gets the overwhelming amount of it's movement (thus friction) from the orbital movement of the tool. I have removed 1500 grit sanding scratches in front of people at SEMA while preventing the pad from rotating at all."

When the pad stalls (stops rotating) as a result of friction at the paint surface (the pad encounters a contour for example that creates a point of drag) then you do run the risk of the foam pad absorbing some of the orbital action - thus you get a double whammy (no rotation / loss of orbital action) which can result in less-than-optimal results. [THIS WAS TOTALLY ME AND PROBABLY A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE PROBLEM WITH TECHNIQUE - INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON PAD ROTATION JUST LET THE PAD OSCILLATE???? - CLEARLY THAT PUTS RUPES IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT LIGHT; YOU CAN POLISH WITH NO PAD ROTATION.]

What to do?

First, use foam pads that are designed for orbital action. Standard rotary pads are too soft and are too likely to absorb the orbital action, like a glob of Jello giggling on itself.
Second, increase pressure. By adding some compression to the foam you ensure that you are transferring the orbital action of the tool more effectively to the paint's surface. Don't push down super hard, just firmly apply pressure.

Pad rotation is nice as it certainly increases pad movement as well as help the scratch pattern to cross-hatch resulting in a better finish, but it isn't necessary - even for heavy correction."

Based on the above, I would surmise and speculate (but clearly can't prove) that Rupes pad rotation is important but not critical. He actually stated that you can polish with the pad not spinning so your technique would be just have the Rupes on the paint and let the machine do the work, rotation may speed things up but it doesn't really matter. See the last sentence. I find this very interesting and it is the first time I have seen someone say that pad rotation isn't "necessary - even for heavy correction".

I was always focused on pad rotation (ie mark your backing plate mike phillips) but maybe this isn't critical and all that matters is having the polisher on the paint and let it do its work. I would like to know how other detailers feel about this. Also, a great test would be Flex spinning vs Rupes not spinning but orbiting and see the results in terms of time - correction/finishing i would imagine will be close or the same but time difference may be large. If time doesn't matter then depending on how you feel about smoothness Rupes may be right for you. For me, time is very important and Flex based on my experience allows me to polish finish in a reasonable amount of time.
Click to expand...
Interesting
 
Ccrew said:
Actually that wasn't a Rupes claim, it was a Todd Helme statement in a recent post, and it's slightly out of context. The gist of his statement was that while good pad rotation would give you a better finish with the Rupes due to crosshatching with both rotation and throw, that the Rupe's large amount of throw was more than capable of doing a complete correction with no rotation at all. That correction ultimately came down to sufficient pad movement, which would still exist with the Rupes even barring no rotation.
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Yep you're right, I didn't mean to say Rupes the company. The summary that you gave is what I got from it as well. Maybe the Boss from Griots will eliminate this problem by having a large throw and a more powerful motor to keep the pad rotating better.
 
MIsnowman said:
Yep you're right, I didn't mean to say Rupes the company. The summary that you gave is what I got from it as well. Maybe the Boss from Griots will eliminate this problem by having a large throw and a more powerful motor to keep the pad rotating better.
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I don't know though. I really don't think that the more wattage motor of the Griots will necessarily fill that bill. The real complaint on the Rupes isn't that the motor bogs down, it's that the pad stops on complex curved surfaces. Both the Rupes and the Griots are indirectly driven pads for rotation but not for throw and I think it remains to be seen if it's a power issue or simply one of physics where you're essentially battling the larger throw in what amounts to a confined space if you get the pad into a corner or valley. What gives first then is the rotation. Flex appears to then save the day because there isn't that uncoupling of drive motor to pad that both the BOSS and Rupes share and while pad contact may suffer, and throw is less, the Flex if nothing else at least appears (and may well succeed) to surmount that issue. Hard for us to speculate when even the recognized authorities like Todd H and Mike P have places where they conflict. I guess we all just agree to disagree?
 
mbpress01 said:
...for Rupes at least YOU DONT HAVE TO HAVE THE PAD SPIN TO CORRECT OR FINISH.
...
I find it amazing in that all the discussion of rupes this was never noted anywhere or if it was it was not emphasized.
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I've mentioned this before, most recently here:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...-polisher-proper-technique-2.html#post1265264

But it didn't get any comment. Good to see some proof points from Todd H.

The large throw of the 21 is a double-edged sword. On non-flat panels the large throw creates greater pad-crushing force as the pad foam deforms and contorts due to the non-flat surface. That creates greater pad rotation stopping force. Or at least, this is the only explanation I could ever think of that would explain the differences between a large throw machine and smaller throw on the same panel and even using the same pad (which is a test I did try, and a long discussion I had with Kevin Brown).
 
Thx all for these comments. I think one of the things I would take from all this is that i now see long throw Rupes in a whole different light. I initially thought that the technique was something special and only a select few could really master it to keep the pad spinning. I asked many times for videos or detailed verbal instructions and read some basic hold it an angle stuff that didn't make much difference. As a result, after trying very hard with the whole system I couldn't figure it out so I sold off all of my tools and converted to Flex, which by the way has worked out incredibly well.

With his comment, I think technique is still important but if the pad stalls (like it did for me) on curvy vertical panels so what, just keep the pad on the paint surface and let it oscillate and while it may take longer you are still correcting and there is no reason to get frustrated, like I did for a whole summer. This means that even the somewhat inexperienced users or weekend warriors who do this as a hobby can still enjoy this great tool.

I think now when we see complaints about stall or no rotation (which I think we will, and I was probably one the biggest complainers) I really hope someone repeats what Todd Helmes said since you may think that the machine is not working but it is and you are still doing work. In hindsight knowing what I know now I probably would still have sold the Rupes machines but not due to pad stall issue or lack of technique but only because I like to try new stuff and have the funds to try. I priced out the boss and it is next on my list.

Also as an aside I can finally understand the forceful support of the Rupes users since pad rotation is great and all but the machine works with pad stall/stop and that is what matters.
 
Did you take the time to try to learn how to use the Rupes? They really are great polishers. I've know a few other detailers. They all primarily use Rupes and are doing amazing work with them. So there's nothing wrong with the machines. There is a slight learning curve but once you figure it out, you'll be fine. The pad never stops spinning on any curves if you can make the adjustments. Only took a little seat time to figure it out. After you done enough corrections with the machine you learn its characteristics. I don't see the big deal in making adjustments while correcting. It's not just the machine that's correcting, it's the operators. You could give an amateur a rupes and a pro a PC and guarantee the pros correction will be flawless because they know how to use the machine. I own a flex as well and like it too. Just find it kind of interesting someone not liking the rupes because they got frustrated that they couldn't get it down. You say post videos of technique but you won't learn that way. You either need to work under someone or get out there, trial & error.
 
Now that I own both the Rupes and the Flex I see merits and drawbacks to both. There are times when I find the longer throw annoying because it's hard to get close to trim, etc. I can keep it spinning by listening pressure on curved panels and never have an issue with vertical panels. The flex has very little learning curve and does correct quickly but it is NOISY and takes a bit of a toll on your body. I can get equal results with both. Absolutely adore my Rupes Mini and it complements any machine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ccrew said:
I don't know though. I really don't think that the more wattage motor of the Griots will necessarily fill that bill. The real complaint on the Rupes isn't that the motor bogs down, it's that the pad stops on complex curved surfaces. Both the Rupes and the Griots are indirectly driven pads for rotation but not for throw and I think it remains to be seen if it's a power issue or simply one of physics where you're essentially battling the larger throw in what amounts to a confined space if you get the pad into a corner or valley. What gives first then is the rotation. Flex appears to then save the day because there isn't that uncoupling of drive motor to pad that both the BOSS and Rupes share and while pad contact may suffer, and throw is less, the Flex if nothing else at least appears (and may well succeed) to surmount that issue. Hard for us to speculate when even the recognized authorities like Todd H and Mike P have places where they conflict. I guess we all just agree to disagree?
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Yep you know what they say about opinions. lol Even the pros disagree sometimes which to me means that personal preference has more to do with it than many might think. Most agree that you can get the same end result with just about any machine, but some take longer and more finess to get there. I just finished polishing my truck with a rotary, couldn't wait to try my new Menzerna polishes, and it looks amazing. Maybe I don't even really need a DA?
 
04golf. I really did try to learn the rupes. I first purchased a 15 and worked on 3 cars - I thought I had it down with the 15 but anytime I did vertical curvy I didn't see the pad spin and then tried everything - angles, pressure, etc and I kept stalling out. Your trial and error process. Then I researched on AG forum and purchase the Duetto thinking that would solve my problem as other forum members said as much - although I don't remember the exact posts. After trying the Duetto with 3 more cars it helped a little but kept stalling and then thought "ok I don't have it". Based on what you said you need to learn under someone since trial and error didn't work and for the weekend warrior like me that is just not possible. The Rupes maybe are better left to the professional. But also I was very hung up on pad rotation and I am definitely not the only one who experienced failed or stalled rotation (we have all seen many many posts about this). After reading Todd Helme's post, my take was that pad rotation is important but the machine itself will finish correct without it, it just may take longer. Well that was a real insight.

As for videos, yes you may not be able to learn the technique but it would sure help. Mike P did a whole video and book on flex and that helped me tremendously seeing a master at work. For Rupes what I would love to see is a really hard panel and a master like you keeping the pad spinning so at least I could get a general sense of how to do. I asked many times to no avail. It would be great to see a professional Rupes video on exactly that. Girots did a short one and I saw the pad rotate but it looked like a somewhat easy panel.

I still think I would not have much success with the Rupes but at least I would not worry about pad rotation. But this was all learned after I sold the system. I think like 40 pads, all the machines and liquids.

The Flex on the other hand - well all the things I experienced with Rupes were gone and I finished my first car last weekend and it took like 3 minutes to learn how to use and 8-9 hours to get near show car quality. What I couldn't believe was how fast the machine corrected finished and how great the car came out. I used the standard setup - LC Hybrid Menzerna and 4 inch backing plate with the smack technique. Wow was my only reaction. I actually enjoyed the project.

Finally, this is just a thought but maybe Ruoes should really market to the professional as it appears that most professionals are the ones using it with no stalling or stopping. I don't know the actual market share but between Flex, Rupes and now Griots they may have a tough go at it. What is interesting is that Girots designed their tool for all market segments hence the Boss is on the list. I am anxious to try that system as I think very soon we will see the Rupes Boss debate start with passionate voices on both sides.

This year, at least, will be Flex and I have 4 cars lined up and am hoping to have show car paint on daily drivers. Also I didn't experience any of the vibration that users note and for noise, well I got earplugs and that worked perfectly.
 
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mbpress01, did you ever do the washer mod?
 
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