Flex3401 vs Griot's Garage 6" ROP

[jimmyjam]

We have allot of new members trying to all the information possible regarding DAs & Flex3401, and with the

Meguiars DA Microfiber Correction System
the Griot's grabbing allot of attention!
So what's the pro/cons and lets have a real informative thread. All opinions have to be respected so our new members get honest insight without pressure. New/Senior members please chime in with questions/answers for us all. We have members experienced with both machines that have a ton of information, and are more than willing to help out with most questions.....:xyxthumbs:

 

[sohail99]

IMO Flex would work better on curves or tight spots where GG polisher will stop rotating(due to forced drive)

Thats one of the main reasons I'm looking forward to the flex 3401

 

[Harleyguy]

IMO Flex would work better on curves or tight spots where GG polisher will stop rotating(due to forced drive)

Thats one of the main reasons I'm looking forward to the flex 3401

I have yet to stop a GG from rotating . Used one Sunday doing a demo with Bob from Griots I leaned onto the machine so hard I almost compressed the pad so the Backing plate was close to the hood and it never stopped spinning . As far as the MF system the GG would be a better machine to use . Everyone that I spoke to so far have gotten better results with a Da versus the Flex 3401 . Micro Fiber system likes slow arm movement and light pressure .

 

[jimmyjam]

I have yet to stop a GG from rotating . Used one Sunday doing a demo with Bob from Griots I leaned onto the machine so hard I almost compressed the pad so the Backing plate was close to the hood and it never stopped spinning . As far as the MF system the GG would be a better machine to use . Everyone that I spoke to so far have gotten better results with a Da versus the Flex 3401 . Micro Fiber system likes slow arm movement and light pressure .

Hi Adam,
Do you think the GG 6 has more vibration than the Flex? Do you see the GG 6 taking dominance in the DA sect. with the MF DA system? Without the MF DA system what benifets does the GG 6 have over the Flex3401?

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

IMO Flex would work better on curves or tight spots where GG polisher will stop rotating(due to forced drive)

This is a good point. On curved panels, the 3401 exceeds, bar none. On flat panels, the GG is MORE than powerful. Technique needs to be adjusted more with the GG than the 3401, IMO. However, when I use my GG with the MF system, I have yet to find the cut and finish of *anything* I've tried on the 3401, that includes Surbuf/M105. The GG EASILY works better with the MF System compared to the 3401.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Hi Adam,
Do you think the GG 6 has more vibration than the Flex? Do you see the GG 6 taking dominance in the DA sect. with the MF DA system? Without the MF DA system what benifets does the GG 6 have over the Flex3401?

Yes, the GG does have more vibration than the 3401, but not as bad as the PCXP. Any traditional DA is better with the MF System because the forced rotation of the 3401 causes the fibers to lay flat when polishing. This is the exact opposite of what you want with these types of pads(and surbuf). The traditional DA does a much better job of not flattening the fibers, that's why it works better with the MF system.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Here is a good expanation from Todd Helme....

Random Orbital DA's do not have a fixed rate of OPM's vs. RPM. Take any of the newer style DA's and run them at speed six (which is usually rated between 6000-6800 OPM). Press down VERY hard on the paint, to the point the pad stalls or almost stalls. If you press down just right you can get the pad to spin at a greatly slowed rate, like 1 time per minute. While the orbits will stall slightly, most of the slack/friction is taken up in the bearing of the machine. You have created a rate of 6800 (roughly) per rotation.

Forced Rotation DA's have a fixed rate. The orbit is actually driven by the rotation, so that if the rotation stalls, so does the OPM, and vice a versa. In regards to the Flex, you are correct. The Flex orbits ten times per rotation and this never changes. This is easy to verify, spin the pad 1 time around and count the orbits, it is always ten.

This means that at maximum speed the Flex is limited to 4800 OPM. (480 RPM x 10 orbits per rotation). Flex uses a 'unique' way of rating the machine, but if we are comparing apples to apples then random orbital DA's produce more OPMs and are less likely to have the OPM rate stall (since the motor is not responsible spinning the big pad).

Now with most polishing systems and with foam pads, the Flex is going to produce more cutting power because it is a forced system and correction is dependent on how fast the foam is moving across the paint. The combination of a forced, high speed rotation, and the orbital motion means you transfering more energy to the paint.

Things get flipped around a little bit when you use something like a Surbuf or Meguiar's DA microfiber system. The texure (little fingers or the microfiber tuft) of the pad makes it more efficent with the orbital motion than with a rotational motion.

When something is orbiting it is like moving your hand in tiny circles (wax on/wax off). This exposes ALL of the microfiber (or micro finger)'s sides to the paint. Since the abrasive grains in the polish attach to the microfiber, the increase in surface area (and the amount of abrasives working) means that most of polishing action is coming from the orbital motion instead of the spinning motion.

In fact too much spinning motion is a BAD thing (hence Meguiar's recommending a SLOWER speed for the DA system). This is because spinning the pad too fast will cause centrifugal force to pull the fibers outward and cause them to lay flat. Down you just have a standard sized pad vs. a pad that is using all of it's surface area (and far less abrasives are being used at a given time).

This is why many people are getting better results using random orbitals instead of forced rotation machines when using products like the Microfiber DA disks (or Surbuff's).

Hope this makes sense and clears up any confusion.

 

[LuxuryMobile]

That is a good post, should help to explain why the Flex isn't the best machine for the new Meguiar's system.

 

[jimmyjam]

Makes total sense and with the MF system I believe it makes non forced DAs more appealing to those in the market for one. I knw as for me my next purchase will have a GG6/MF DA system. I'm still Flex "headed" with the idea that there's no replacing the Flex, but I'm now open minded....Ha

 

[BobbyG]

Makes total sense and with the MF system I believe it makes non forced DAs more appealing to those in the market for one. I knw as for me my next purchase will have a GG6/MF DA system. I'm still Flex "headed" with the idea that there's no replacing the Flex, but I'm now open minded....Ha

Jimmy,

I have bot the Flex 3401 and Porter Cables 7424 so I think I'm all set for now....rops:

 

[jimmyjam]

Jimmy,

I have bot the Flex 3401 and Porter Cables 7424 so I think I'm all set for now....rops:

Hey Bobby,
After the MF pads came out I kinda started to feel left out... lol

 

[Harleyguy]

Thanks Mark for answering JimmyJam questions . Only thing I can say at this point Jimmy is go with what you feel right with . But IMO stick with what Mark Said his owned all the machines out there and tested plenty of products using all types of combos of pads and compunds .

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Makes total sense and with the MF system I believe it makes non forced DAs more appealing to those in the market for one. I knw as for me my next purchase will have a GG6/MF DA system. I'm still Flex "headed" with the idea that there's no replacing the Flex, but I'm now open minded....Ha

You think YOU were Flex "headed", well, for those that know me, I wouldn't budge on the 3401, until now. The DA MF is truly revolutionary, IMO. However, with the DA MF system, in order to make it most efficient, it's very important not to work too fast. You don't have to move the polisher like a snail, but you can't have rapid arm speed either. The 3401 is still an outstanding polisher and WISHHHHHHHHHHHHHH it worked well with the DA MF system, but it doesn't.

Thanks Mark for answering JimmyJam questions . Only thing I can say at this point Jimmy is go with what you feel right with . But IMO stick with what Mark Said his owned all the machines out there and tested plenty of products using all types of combos of pads and compunds .

Thanks Adam, yet I still don't know how to use a rotary very well. :laughing: When it comes to DA's, yes, I tried them all with different combos. You got to try the GG DA, how do you like it? Honestly...

 

[jimmyjam]

You think YOU were Flex "headed", well, for those that know me, I wouldn't budge on the 3401, until now. The DA MF is truly revolutionary, IMO. However, with the DA MF system, in order to make it most efficient, it's very important not to work too fast. You don't have to move the polisher like a snail, but you can't have rapid arm speed either. The 3401 is still an outstanding polisher and WISHHHHHHHHHHHHHH it worked well with the DA MF system, but it doesn't.


Thanks Adam, yet I still don't know how to use a rotary very well. :laughing: When it comes to DA's, yes, I tried them all with different combos. You got to try the GG DA, how do you like it? Honestly...

Thanks Marky Mark!

 

[bmwgeek]

I can't stand the vibrations of the 7424xp @ speed 5. Maybe I should switch to the Griot's Garage one.

 

[93fox]

you guys are seriously making me feel like selling my PCXP and getting a GG. the funny thing is, i haven't even used my pc! its chilling there beside my makita waiting to get used! i haven't had the chance to use it yet, but once i do, ill see how much i like it!

 

[fishnugget]

Wow, I was thinking of purchasing the FLEX but now with his new Meguiars DA system and my m105 half empty, I might purchase the MF pads and polishing compound.

So one question, what if I have light scratches? When using Meguiars DA MF system do you use the heavy cutting compound to remove or the second compound. Or, do you just go with M205 LC white pad. Thanks.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

Wow, I was thinking of purchasing the FLEX but now with his new Meguiars DA system and my m105 half empty, I might purchase the MF pads and polishing compound.

So one question, what if I have light scratches? When using Meguiars DA MF system do you use the heavy cutting compound to remove or the second compound. Or, do you just go with M205 LC white pad. Thanks.

There is no second compound, it's a finishing wax(very light cut). Try M205.

 

[fishnugget]

That makes sense, thanks!

 

[sergdman]

So I was actually going to purchase a Flex 3401 along with product and pads tomorrow, just for personal use. Newbie to detailing cars. I have the day off from work and everything. Today I ran into this new information. After all my winter research and headaches, this happens, new information on the Megs microfiber correction. Does this new system make things easier than using the flex and regular pads? If I have slight swirls I would just use the finishing wax" Thats it? Would I use a wax on top of that to protect it longer? Should I just buy the Megs kit with the Megs DA, or the Griots with the microfiber pads, because it looks like the Flex is not going to work with the Megs MF pads. Easier would be better for me. I mean, I can get the flex and foam pads, or another DA and the Megs MF pads. What would you guys recommend. Sorry, all over the place.