Follow-up to "I screwed up pretty good... advice please" Advice needed again.

[kochdalton87]

Some of you have been following and helping with my recent thread on knicked through the paint on a 1996 Ford F-250.
Found here:
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/71859-i-screwed-up-pretty-good-advice-please.html

Well I finished the truck a few weekends and did not get payment the day it was delivered because it was a family member and trust him. Well now I'm running into a little bit of a situation. I have 26.25 hours in this truck and yes I know that is more than what I wanted to get into it but 10 hours were spent on stripe removal alone because I was being extremely careful after I realized what I had done earlier.

I charged $12 an hour, and yes I know it is extremely low. I'm just getting into detailing and I usually come out alright at that rate for regular wash & waxes. The total bill for this was $291. Seeing that I am 17 it's a little harder to educate people on proper car care and what goes into it. I am working on my skills and my rate will be going up next year. If any of you care to comment on an hourly rate that you think is reasonable for someone of my age please go ahead. I will be under an official business name, with taxes, and possibly insurance. Didn't check into that yet and am aware of the consequences without it.

For those of you that were following the previous thread you know the condition of the truck. Here are a few pictures for those that are not familiar with it.







As you can see the truck is in quite rough shape. It was requested that the owner wanted the truck cleaned up very thoroughly and buff it back to a nice red. As you can see in some of the photos it was previously "buffed" by the previous owner/detailer so those sections of the truck were only hit with a cleaner wax in fear of striking through. The rest of the truck was compounded with M105 + LC Hybrid Blue Pad via Flex 3401 and then polished using M205 +LC Hybrid White pad. The whole vehicle was then sealed with WGDGPS.
I was extremely happy with the results considering what I was given to work with.

Here are a few before and after photos of the truck.












Now here's the thing. He was very happy with the way the truck turned out but wasn't expecting the $291 bill to go along with it. He was thinking more around 150-175ish range but I thought we were on the same page thinking price-wise. Now when you look at the pictures what kind of value increase do you see in the truck with having the paint is in the condition now? He didn't outright say it but I get the feeling he doesn't think it helped the value considerably to offset the cost. I think it helped the value considerably.

Although I did not return the truck back in perfect condition because of burning through the paint on the bed he seemed very happy on the night of delivery even with the paint issue on the bed being pointed out. Fast forward a week or two and now it seems like he isn't thrilled with the job and he thinks the stripe marks and burn-through spot are a little too evident. What's your opinion? I did get lucky in a sense because it was repainted and I was able to bring the coat of paint underneath it to a nice red instead of seeing bare metal.




I am entirely prepared to get the side of the bed repainted because customer satisfaction is my number one concern. I would just like an opinion on the situation from the great people here on autogeek. Several lessons have been learned through this situation and will not be forgotten for future references.

Thank you and any help is greatly appreciated.
Dalton

 

[Romans5.8]

BlueBook for that truck would be;

'EXCELLENT' (You COULD pass this for excellent, even with the defect, but perhaps it'd need the side repainted to be 'excellent')
$4,165

'VERY GOOD', meaning minor defects; which is what my unqualified opinion thinks it is;
$3,890

'FAIR' defined as, among other things, the 'paint or body needing professional reconditioning', which it did (and you did!) is;
$3,290

So worst case? You went from Fair to Very Good, and increased the book value $600. You may even be able to convince someone it's excellent meaning this truck is worth almost $1,000 more than what it was when he dropped it off.

Of course there are variables. I don't know the miles, nor the options, nor the mechanical condition. But, I can't fathom for a second that you didn't improve the value of that truck MORE than $300. Not to mention making it a much more desirable, easier to sell truck. That truck looks better than 99% of '96 F-250's out there, I can tell you that!

I'm not a pro detailer. In fact, I'm a total noob with no desire to ever be a 'pro detailer'. But, I figured I'd throw that out there. I don't know what a good price is or isn't, I don't know what you should do about the burn through. But; I do feel confident saying the truck is worth more than it was before, more than the $291 you are charging him. (I do have a little tiny bit of experience in that regard, as I always sell my cars instead of trading them in and have sold/listed cars for family and friends in the past).

 

[lyodbraun]

Very nice work, hope ya get your money...

 

[Pureshine]

Looks great now get paid

 

[RTexasF]

My young friend you are learning a valuable lesson very early in the game and that is a good thing for your future. Here are my thoughts on the situation and I'm in my mid 60's with years of detailing under my belt:

1. Ask the relative to pay what they think it is worth and accept it without a quibble. Since they are troubled by the damage and if they pay what you want (which is most reasonable) they will hold it against you forever and badmouth you from now on. Grudges are NOT cool in the family.

2. Did the relative or you decide the decals had to come off? If they wanted them off you should have advised them of the negative possibilities but this takes experience. If YOU decided to remove them you should have known that with a truck of this age it may not come out perfectly.....again, experience. Both of which you lack at your young age....not knocking you, just a fact that you now must learn from.

3. Take whatever is offered, apologize for the (minor) damage and let him enjoy his renewed ride. Chalk it up to experience and move forward.

4. You earned more than what you are charging but that isn't the point. Keep the peace in the family, take the money offered, and DO NOT do any more cars of family members. At least not those that require severe correction. Wash & Wax? You bet! Complete revamp with ancient decal removal? NO.

5. Been there, done that, and got my a$$ burned but I learned from it. Make sure you do the same.

By the way.....the truck looks great!

 

[AC in OC]

That's messed up he doesn't want to pay you what's due. I guess you can chalk this up to a learning experience. In a way it's good that your mistake happened on a beater that the owner doesn't truly value. It's clear that you learned quickly what you were doing wrong and was able to remove the rest of the old stipes without further damage.

I think you did a great job and it turned out nicely. One thing you could do it take some of the before pics and show them to a local car wash/detail shop to get a basic quote. Guarantee they wouldn't even take it, or they would charge a much higher price than what you gave. Besides, even with the damage, you did a better job as a beginner then some "experienced" guys would do at the local car wash. Then you can take that quote back to the owner and show him how much he saved by going to you instead.

 

[Vegas Transplant]

Excellent post RTexasF rops:

My two cents.

First of all...good job. Too bad you damaged the paint. But here's the kicker...call a spade a spade. What you're calling a burn through is not correct. You gouged that paint. Burn through, IMO does not have jagged edges. You damaged the paint plain and simple. Period.

Secondly, used vehicles, and trucks in particular have been selling above KBB value since 2008 with no end in sight. So to say that you added value is quite erroneous in my book. What you did do is clean up a beater truck that the owner values as necessary tool in inclimate weather.

Lastly, if you only used a cleaner wax, and didn't top with a durable product, your hard work will be short lived. I know this from details past. I only use cleaner sealant type products topped with a durable sealant (hybrid) when attempting such turn arounds. These end products are put in maint. rotation and have lasted over a year due to safe washing, spray wax, and reapplication of said sealant.

You could have saved yourself some trouble and heartache by settling the matter promptly. Most obviously by dropping your price at time of pick up to compensate for damages.
Not being a bubble buster, just playing devil's advocate.

I burned through single stage paint using an eraser on a drill while removing vinyl stripes.
For a little background info it is a red 1996 Ford F-250 that belongs to an extended family member and is severely oxidized.
It is somewhat of a beater truck, mainly gets driven in bad weather when he doesn't want to take out his new edge Mach 1. The rest of the truck is filled with imperfections also.

 

[kochdalton87]

BlueBook for that truck would be;

'EXCELLENT' (You COULD pass this for excellent, even with the defect, but perhaps it'd need the side repainted to be 'excellent')
$4,165

'VERY GOOD', meaning minor defects; which is what my unqualified opinion thinks it is;
$3,890

'FAIR' defined as, among other things, the 'paint or body needing professional reconditioning', which it did (and you did!) is;
$3,290

So worst case? You went from Fair to Very Good, and increased the book value $600. You may even be able to convince someone it's excellent meaning this truck is worth almost $1,000 more than what it was when he dropped it off.

Of course there are variables. I don't know the miles, nor the options, nor the mechanical condition. But, I can't fathom for a second that you didn't improve the value of that truck MORE than $300. Not to mention making it a much more desirable, easier to sell truck. That truck looks better than 99% of '96 F-250's out there, I can tell you that!

I'm not a pro detailer. In fact, I'm a total noob with no desire to ever be a 'pro detailer'. But, I figured I'd throw that out there. I don't know what a good price is or isn't, I don't know what you should do about the burn through. But; I do feel confident saying the truck is worth more than it was before, more than the $291 you are charging him. (I do have a little tiny bit of experience in that regard, as I always sell my cars instead of trading them in and have sold/listed cars for family and friends in the past).

Interesting points and I will be sure to remember them. At first it seemed like he just wanted to have the truck cleaned up to make it presentable as he is a temporary substitute at a local school but now it seems like he's aiming towards selling it. It's one of those things it is still family so it's better sometimes to just count your losses and move on.

Very nice work, hope ya get your money...

Thank you.

Looks great now get paid

Thank you.

My young friend you are learning a valuable lesson very early in the game and that is a good thing for your future. Here are my thoughts on the situation and I'm in my mid 60's with years of detailing under my belt:

1. Ask the relative to pay what they think it is worth and accept it without a quibble. Since they are troubled by the damage and if they pay what you want (which is most reasonable) they will hold it against you forever and badmouth you from now on. Grudges are NOT cool in the family.

2. Did the relative or you decide the decals had to come off? If they wanted them off you should have advised them of the negative possibilities but this takes experience. If YOU decided to remove them you should have known that with a truck of this age it may not come out perfectly.....again, experience. Both of which you lack at your young age....not knocking you, just a fact that you now must learn from.

3. Take whatever is offered, apologize for the (minor) damage and let him enjoy his renewed ride. Chalk it up to experience and move forward.

4. You earned more than what you are charging but that isn't the point. Keep the peace in the family, take the money offered, and DO NOT do any more cars of family members. At least not those that require severe correction. Wash & Wax? You bet! Complete revamp with ancient decal removal? NO.

5. Been there, done that, and got my a$$ burned but I learned from it. Make sure you do the same.

By the way.....the truck looks great!

1. That is the way I was leaning towards going or if he would like the side of the bed repainted I would front that cost and then either ask him to pay whatever $291-the paint job on the side of the bed cost or just let it go as lesson learned. Above all I do not want any bad mouthing to come out of this situation and may be better just to let it go and move on. (Lesson: Always explain what processes are involved for the task at hand and give them a better idea of the amount of work that goes in to it along with a flexible quote.)

2. The owner and I talked about the stripes and knowing that they were in bad condition he said if I could get the color under the stripes to match the rest of the truck I had permission to go ahead on that. I did do a test spot on the tailgate seeing that was the least obvious place if they did not match. I could see a slight difference in the color since it was repainted with the stripes taped off but made the decision to take the rest off as it would provide a much cleaner look to the rest of the truck. (Lesson: When in a situation like this always double check with the customer and have them look over it physically before proceeding on the rest of the vehicle.)
(Lesson: Always wear safety glasses while removing vinyl stripes. You never know when a piece will land in your eye (intense pain).)

3. Noted and will leave it up to him partly how he would like to handle it within reason after a lengthy conversation.

4. Agreed. Family > Money

Thank you for your response, it is greatly appreciated.

That's messed up he doesn't want to pay you what's due. I guess you can chalk this up to a learning experience. In a way it's good that your mistake happened on a beater that the owner doesn't truly value. It's clear that you learned quickly what you were doing wrong and was able to remove the rest of the old stipes without further damage.

I think you did a great job and it turned out nicely. One thing you could do it take some of the before pics and show them to a local car wash/detail shop to get a basic quote. Guarantee they wouldn't even take it, or they would charge a much higher price than what you gave. Besides, even with the damage, you did a better job as a beginner then some "experienced" guys would do at the local car wash. Then you can take that quote back to the owner and show him how much he saved by going to you instead.

Thank you, I was pleased with the overall turnaround on the vehicle. Interesting point and I will take that into consideration.

 

[kochdalton87]

Excellent post RTexasF rops:

My two cents.

First of all...good job. Too bad you damaged the paint. But here's the kicker...call a spade a spade. What you're calling a burn through is not correct. You gouged that paint. Burn through, IMO does not have jagged edges. You damaged the paint plain and simple. Period.

Secondly, used vehicles, and trucks in particular have been selling above KBB value since 2008 with no end in sight. So to say that you added value is quite erroneous in my book. What you did do is clean up a beater truck that the owner values as necessary tool in inclimate weather.

Lastly, if you only used a cleaner wax, and didn't top with a durable product, your hard work will be short lived. I know this from details past. I only use cleaner sealant type products topped with a durable sealant (hybrid) when attempting such turn arounds. These end products are put in maint. rotation and have lasted over a year due to safe washing, spray wax, and reapplication of said sealant.

You could have saved yourself some trouble and heartache by settling the matter promptly. Most obviously by dropping your price at time of pick up to compensate for damages.
Not being a bubble buster, just playing devil's advocate.

To start off, no offense taken with your post. I find your constructive criticism quite helpful. Gouging the paint is a better term for the paint damage, I couldn't think of a better on at the time but good point.

Interesting point on the value. I do agree that used vehicles, especially diesel trucks have been selling for quite substantial amounts compared for what they were going for. On adding value I will agree and disagree with you on that one. When you point it out that way I did not necessarily increase the value of the truck, instead, I helped the condition level of the trucks appearance, therefore slightly helping interest in a prospective buyer. As a buyer that doesn't know a single thing about paint correction would you be more willing to buy a truck that is severely faded or a freshly polished red one? Just a thought and that's how I look at it IMO. You can gladly think otherwise.

I did use a cleaner wax on the previously buffed areas on the truck in fear of doing any damage with severe abrasives and to give it a little bit of a glow before topping with WGDGPS over the entire vehicle. I did mention that with the characteristics of single stage paint, especially one of poor quality will need to be maintained thoroughly and he understood that. I have yet to add Collinite #845 to my arsenal but that is what I will most likely use on this particular vehicle and others in similar situations.

Also, at the time of pick-up the customer seemed alright with the price and didn't seem to have a problem with it or at least didn't reveal that. Thank you for your advice, it is greatly appreciated.

 

[Russ57]

Rick from Texas made some good points (so did others).

You would think friends and family would support someone starting out. Sadly it has been my experience that they are looking for deals and would pay a total stranger more for the same work. Best not to do business with them IMHO.

Put things in writing. Make sure both sides have an idea of the work to be done and its cost. When it isn't possible to give a firm estimate I give a "not to exceed" price.

Never bill by the hour. As you get better you will do more/better work in a shorter period of time. You shouldn't be paid less for getting better at your craft and investing in better tools/materials/training.

The world is made of givers and takers. Takers will generally think givers are suckers and deserve to be used. Only you can decide what you deserve.

Frankly, if you hadn't caused that damage....and everything came out looking right....I'd wager most here would be looking for closer to twice what you asked.

 

[Vegas Transplant]

You're welcome brother detailer rops:
You're well on your way to becoming a top notch detailer. In this game, experience is like credit: you have none 'til you get some.
:idea: Have you checked the price of custom decals to hide your handy work? Might be cheaper than a panel repaint.

If you read into FUNX725's sig. line you may just gain valuable insight.

 

[rwright]

Great turnaround but you damaged the paint. I'm willing to bet even with a single stage re-spray of the damaged area, a professional body shop will charge close to what he thinks he should pay you. In my personal opinion call this one a loss and move forward, without ill will. Consider it practice.

 

[RTexasF]

Excellent post RTexasF

Thank you. I'm just trying to help the lad and not let him get discouraged over this incident. We've all made mistakes.

 

[Znig22]

Good work! I think the problem lies beyond just your work. You mentioned the truck had been re sprayed with the stripes taped up??? I personally would have had them peeled then. You did a great job, the truck looks great. You can't turn chicken #### into chicken salad everytime! Take whatever money he thinks is fair and walk with a hand shake.

 

[Romans5.8]

Even if you didn't increase the value, you made it easier to flip. That truck looks good. It really does for that age. No rust, paint looks good, good tires. It'll sell quick for a fair price. In it's prior condition, it may be harder to sell. A lot of people are unaware of what oxidation does to single stage paint and may think it would need a whole repaint. In fact, a relative of mine recently got his '68 Camaro repainted because it was oxidized, and he thought the paint was shot. Repainted the whole car when all he needed to do was hit it with a DA or take it to someone who would!

 

[kochdalton87]

Rick from Texas made some good points (so did others).

You would think friends and family would support someone starting out. Sadly it has been my experience that they are looking for deals and would pay a total stranger more for the same work. Best not to do business with them IMHO.

Put things in writing. Make sure both sides have an idea of the work to be done and its cost. When it isn't possible to give a firm estimate I give a "not to exceed" price.

Never bill by the hour. As you get better you will do more/better work in a shorter period of time. You shouldn't be paid less for getting better at your craft and investing in better tools/materials/training.

The world is made of givers and takers. Takers will generally think givers are suckers and deserve to be used. Only you can decide what you deserve.

Frankly, if you hadn't caused that damage....and everything came out looking right....I'd wager most here would be looking for closer to twice what you asked.

Interesting and valid points. When doing work for family members you are right in a sense. There are family members that I don't have any desire to do work for at all but I do have a very automotive-based enthusiastic family that do appreciate a freshly detailed and perfect car. Those are the ones that I would possibly do work for in the future and they understand what all goes into something like this.

When starting out I thought billing by the hour would be a good way to get my name out there but more and more I'm contemplating going to fixed rates for next year. Not sure yet on what I'm going to do but I have plenty of time to think about that. Thank you for your opinion.

You're welcome brother detailer rops:
You're well on your way to becoming a top notch detailer. In this game, experience is like credit: you have none 'til you get some.
:idea: Have you checked the price of custom decals to hide your handy work? Might be cheaper than a panel repaint.

If you read into FUNX725's sig. line you may just gain valuable insight.

Thank you. I did throw around the idea of decals that would cover the gouged paint and draw the owner's attention away from the stripe outlines but didn't pursue it any further. I did make a mention of it to the owner but it never went any further.

Great turnaround but you damaged the paint. I'm willing to bet even with a single stage re-spray of the damaged area, a professional body shop will charge close to what he thinks he should pay you. In my personal opinion call this one a loss and move forward, without ill will. Consider it practice.

Thanks, the main reason I am throwing around "insisting" on a respray on the side of the bed is because it would alleviate any physical record of the mistake I made and the customer would be satisfied. In a way lowering the price may fix it in one way the damage is still very evident and the only way to fix it is a respray. Like you said, fix the mistake, and move one.

Good work! I think the problem lies beyond just your work. You mentioned the truck had been re sprayed with the stripes taped up??? I personally would have had them peeled then. You did a great job, the truck looks great. You can't turn chicken #### into chicken salad everytime! Take whatever money he thinks is fair and walk with a hand shake.

haha Thank you. The truck was resprayed before the current owner took possession so it was out of his control at the time.

Even if you didn't increase the value, you made it easier to flip. That truck looks good. It really does for that age. No rust, paint looks good, good tires. It'll sell quick for a fair price. In it's prior condition, it may be harder to sell. A lot of people are unaware of what oxidation does to single stage paint and may think it would need a whole repaint. In fact, a relative of mine recently got his '68 Camaro repainted because it was oxidized, and he thought the paint was shot. Repainted the whole car when all he needed to do was hit it with a DA or take it to someone who would!

Thank you. You have the same outlook on the situation in a sense as me. As geeks we know what can and can't be done with paint but the general public is not aware of the ability to revive paint. Thanks for your input.

 

[Flash Gordon]

I

M

O

​

He has every right to be upset with your price. You should've revealed that before you got started

Nice job BTW​

I

M

O



:dblthumb2:​

 

[jrs1418]

You most definately added value to that truck, first impressions are the most important. You took a truck that looked severely neglected, to looking awesome!

 

[Radarryan]

First and foremost, great job on the truck! Now, my perspective is a little bit different, since I am not a professional detailer. When I was 16, however, I did start a detailing business and worked in it through the rest of high school and during the breaks during my freshman and sophomore years in college, so I know what it's like to be working in the business at that age and struggling to get paid for what you've put into the project.

Now, for me, detailing was just a way for me to pay for my obsession with making my car look amazing. I would detail just to have the products I could use on my own car, however my employees didn't share that mindset! :laughing:

There were many times where I had to pretty much have my labor be free, because people didn't think that a "kid" could demand that much money nor did they think that they should be paying a teenager those sums - even though it is well deserved, and then some! In their eyes, at least in my experience, since they didn't get paid that much when they were working as young adults, then they don't want to pay someone that. That, plus they don't know what goes into making a truck go from the before to the after.

Here's a harsh fact, that is certainly debatable. The overall condition of the paint, save for clear coat failure, does not really impact the overall value of the vehicle. This holds true mostly on the wholesale market (if you trade in your car or sell it to a dealer, etc.), rather than on the private market where you sell your vehicle to another individual. Specialty things that you think would add value, such as large, 20" chrome wheels and a trick paint job actually do very little to add to the price during said transactions. It's sad, but as I'm sure you know you never get out of it what you put in.

With that being said, that's why I think that he was fair in saying that it didn't add value. Now, should it pay you what you're asking. Yes! In fact, he should be paying you double or triple! Since that's not going to happen I think that you're approaching it the right way - it's a learning experience; you're getting better at your craft; it's family; etc.

For some details that I did in 2006-07 (my last years in high school) when the economy was great, I would "poach" high-end exotics from a local hand wash and detail shop. I showed my work, my products, my processes, and my employees and then quoted a price that beat it by over 50%. Now, I had other sources of income, I was still in high school, and was still a "punk kid" but I learned that, unfortunately, because of my age, I would never be able to demand the prices that I deserved. As your name and reputation builds - so will your prices.

Good luck with all your future endeavors! Happy detailing!

 

[jpegs13]

Great turnaround but you damaged the paint. I'm willing to bet even with a single stage re-spray of the damaged area, a professional body shop will charge close to what he thinks he should pay you. In my personal opinion call this one a loss and move forward, without ill will. Consider it practice.

BINGO!:xyxthumbs: