Follow-up to "I screwed up pretty good... advice please" Advice needed again.

[kochdalton87]

He has every right to be upset with your price. You should've revealed that before you got started

Nice job BTW


:dblthumb2:[/CENTER]

Thank you and yes looking back on it I see where he is coming from. I did not give him a very definitive quote starting off and that was my first mistake. Definitely a lesson learned.

You most definately added value to that truck, first impressions are the most important. You took a truck that looked severely neglected, to looking awesome!

Thank you. You are correct, first impressions are everything. Not to go off on a tangent but I do agree with Vegas Transplant because I did not necessarily add value to the truck instead I feel I made it slightly easier to sell in a sense. To the general person they might think the paint is trashed and they would either have to accept the fact it looks like that or get it repainted.

First and foremost, great job on the truck! Now, my perspective is a little bit different, since I am not a professional detailer. When I was 16, however, I did start a detailing business and worked in it through the rest of high school and during the breaks during my freshman and sophomore years in college, so I know what it's like to be working in the business at that age and struggling to get paid for what you've put into the project.

Now, for me, detailing was just a way for me to pay for my obsession with making my car look amazing. I would detail just to have the products I could use on my own car, however my employees didn't share that mindset! :laughing:

There were many times where I had to pretty much have my labor be free, because people didn't think that a "kid" could demand that much money nor did they think that they should be paying a teenager those sums - even though it is well deserved, and then some! In their eyes, at least in my experience, since they didn't get paid that much when they were working as young adults, then they don't want to pay someone that. That, plus they don't know what goes into making a truck go from the before to the after.

Here's a harsh fact, that is certainly debatable. The overall condition of the paint, save for clear coat failure, does not really impact the overall value of the vehicle. This holds true mostly on the wholesale market (if you trade in your car or sell it to a dealer, etc.), rather than on the private market where you sell your vehicle to another individual. Specialty things that you think would add value, such as large, 20" chrome wheels and a trick paint job actually do very little to add to the price during said transactions. It's sad, but as I'm sure you know you never get out of it what you put in.

With that being said, that's why I think that he was fair in saying that it didn't add value. Now, should it pay you what you're asking. Yes! In fact, he should be paying you double or triple! Since that's not going to happen I think that you're approaching it the right way - it's a learning experience; you're getting better at your craft; it's family; etc.

For some details that I did in 2006-07 (my last years in high school) when the economy was great, I would "poach" high-end exotics from a local hand wash and detail shop. I showed my work, my products, my processes, and my employees and then quoted a price that beat it by over 50%. Now, I had other sources of income, I was still in high school, and was still a "punk kid" but I learned that, unfortunately, because of my age, I would never be able to demand the prices that I deserved. As your name and reputation builds - so will your prices.

Good luck with all your future endeavors! Happy detailing!

Thank you for the constructive criticism. I can relate to your experiences quite well. You almost have my situation nailed spot on and I thank you for your advice and insight. If you have any advice in general how to overcome that issue it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks



I realize this may not be the best situation to ask this question but aside from the circumstances above what does everyone feel would be a fair price to myself and my customers to charge as a base hourly rate to set my prices around? I was not prepared to do stripe removal and learned the hard way but asides from that, you saw what I can do in terms of polishing paint. I am not in any way claiming to be a professional at it but I feel like I have a decent grasp on the core concepts of detailing and just need to build on and dial in my techniques. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Vegas Transplant]

Put things in writing. Make sure both sides have an idea of the work to be done and its cost. When it isn't possible to give a firm estimate I give a "not to exceed" price.

Never bill by the hour. As you get better you will do more/better work in a shorter period of time. You shouldn't be paid less for getting better at your craft and investing in better tools/materials/training.

I would not say "never", but I agree with Russ57

Many will probably disagree with my post but I think that one needs to have a package price when one is just starting out. Eventually as your practices and methodologies improve then move into hourly if you so choose. As you learn products, and what they are capable of, your time spent on the detail decreases.
I say this because as I see it, this particular detail was an AIO topped, not a correction detail. There was never a need for compound and polish. You probably racked up hours that were not necessary.

 

[RTexasF]

Many will probably disagree with my post but I think that one needs to have a package price when one is just starting out. Eventually as your practices and methodologies improve then move into hourly if you so choose. As you learn products, and what they are capable of, your time spent on the detail decreases.
I say this because as I see it, this particular detail was a one-step topped, not a correction detail. There was never a need for compound and polish. You probably racked up hours that were not necessary.

I agree with this. If you tell someone, let's say $25 per hour, they might suffer from sticker shock and have no idea what the final tally will be. One the other hand if you tell Mr./Miss/Mrs. compact car owner that the wash, wax, interior vac, & window clean is $75 they KNOW what to expect. Now this is assuming you know that you can complete the task in three hours or less. If you go over a little bit timewise then eat it unless they asked you to do extra.

This teaches you efficiency and you learn very quickly if your time/price is on the mark or not. If not then adjust your techniques to do the job more quickly. After several jobs of different types and sizes you will be able to quote future jobs within 15 minutes purely from experience and not screw yourself money wise.

After this is down pat you can raise your hourly price to what the market will bear. As a for instance I started off @ $25 per hour (in my mind) never mentioning the hourly cost of course. Once I got better, more confident, and even more efficient, I went up to $40. That same compact car wash & wax described above was now $120. I lost a few but new customers made up the difference.

One more thing.....I came up with a guarantee. After discussing what they wanted done and expected AT LENGTH I looked them in the eye and said, "If the finished work does not exceed your expectations then it is free and we still part friends". This took both balls and confidence. Never once did anyone sting me. I'm not saying you should use this but come up with something on your own to instill confidence in the customer. I'm far from 17 so they knew I meant what I said. You will need something to overcome your youth and the customer's perception of it along with your experience.

Sorry I wrote a book, forgive me.

 

[RTexasF]

One more thing to consider. I always did a "little extra" for the customer and made damn sure I pointed it out. This could be as simple as " I also waxed your door jambs" (Optimum spray wax) to "I checked your oil and you are are a quart low, did you know that?" Little things like that bring people back. You MUST get their email address and phone number. A reminder that it is time (via text or email) for a clean up brings them back in long after they have forgotten about you. It's a business, treat it as such.

Another example is calling them when the work is done and asking "I'd like to put a scent in your car to make it smell fresh when you come to get it. Would you prefer green apple or vanilla?" You'll find out RIGHT NOW if they have allergies to such applications or not. If they don't they will love it, if they do have allergies they will appreciate that you called prior to doing the application. Customer service is what it is all about.

How would YOU like to be treated? Treat your customers the same way and you will be successful. I hope all this helps you.

 

[Russ57]

Im loving what Rick is saying. He could be charging for his sage advice. Totally rings true with other things I have done (I'm not an auto detailer).

As someone new to all of this....what strikes me is the need for you guys to educate the customer. They need to understand that going to a cut rate place is causing (the car) harm and them finanical damage. I think the average person doesn't understand this (lord knows I didn't).

I'm seeing some commments....like fair price for the customer....and I'm no professional....and they are making me think (the original poster) is lacking in self confidence. Would it make sense for him to aquire some training/education/knowledge in order for him to be self assured of what he offers the customer?


P.S. I'm now thinking I need to retire to Texas. Can a man sit on his front porch while drinking beer and shooting feral pigs.....and not be molested by the IRS, police, and revenuers?

 

[RTexasF]

Would it make sense for him to aquire some training/education/knowledge in order for him to be self assured of what he offers the customer?

Possibly, but the best teacher is experience. Judging by the final look on this truck work ethic is not a problem, it's a knockout. The vehicle has been transformed but with a minor boo boo. This is the BEST experience that no classroom can teach. I think this individual is confident in what he can do. Learning takes time and experience. I feel that after this incident he has gained a great deal of knowledge and is ready to advance.

 

[kochdalton87]

I would not say "never", but I agree with Russ57

Many will probably disagree with my post but I think that one needs to have a package price when one is just starting out. Eventually as your practices and methodologies improve then move into hourly if you so choose. As you learn products, and what they are capable of, your time spent on the detail decreases.
I say this because as I see it, this particular detail was an AIO topped, not a correction detail. There was never a need for compound and polish. You probably racked up hours that were not necessary.

I do agree with you on several points. The more and more you guys are pointing out the positives to a package price I am leaning toward going that way until next year. Although I have not done an incredible amount of vehicles this summer each one of them taught me something whether big or small. The money is nice but the experience gained while starting out is priceless. IMO you can read all you want and avoid some common or small mistakes but until you actually get your hands on a car for yourself it gives a whole new meaning to detailing. When reading write-ups and other articles it provides a strong base for the task at hand but everyone must find their own niche and what works best for them in certain situations. The only way you're ever going to do discover what works best for you is actually doing it. Reading and watching videos is a good start but it is only the beginning.

I understand what you are saying with racking up unnecessary hours and have to agree with you on that one partly. I was slightly surprised when I added up all my hours at the end of the job and I invested more time than I had planned for.

I agree with this. If you tell someone, let's say $25 per hour, they might suffer from sticker shock and have no idea what the final tally will be. One the other hand if you tell Mr./Miss/Mrs. compact car owner that the wash, wax, interior vac, & window clean is $75 they KNOW what to expect. Now this is assuming you know that you can complete the task in three hours or less. If you go over a little bit timewise then eat it unless they asked you to do extra.

This teaches you efficiency and you learn very quickly if your time/price is on the mark or not. If not then adjust your techniques to do the job more quickly. After several jobs of different types and sizes you will be able to quote future jobs within 15 minutes purely from experience and not screw yourself money wise.

After this is down pat you can raise your hourly price to what the market will bear. As a for instance I started off @ $25 per hour (in my mind) never mentioning the hourly cost of course. Once I got better, more confident, and even more efficient, I went up to $40. That same compact car wash & wax described above was now $120. I lost a few but new customers made up the difference.

One more thing.....I came up with a guarantee. After discussing what they wanted done and expected AT LENGTH I looked them in the eye and said, "If the finished work does not exceed your expectations then it is free and we still part friends". This took both balls and confidence. Never once did anyone sting me. I'm not saying you should use this but come up with something on your own to instill confidence in the customer. I'm far from 17 so they knew I meant what I said. You will need something to overcome your youth and the customer's perception of it along with your experience.

Sorry I wrote a book, forgive me.

One more thing to consider. I always did a "little extra" for the customer and made damn sure I pointed it out. This could be as simple as " I also waxed your door jambs" (Optimum spray wax) to "I checked your oil and you are are a quart low, did you know that?" Little things like that bring people back. You MUST get their email address and phone number. A reminder that it is time (via text or email) for a clean up brings them back in long after they have forgotten about you. It's a business, treat it as such.

Another example is calling them when the work is done and asking "I'd like to put a scent in your car to make it smell fresh when you come to get it. Would you prefer green apple or vanilla?" You'll find out RIGHT NOW if they have allergies to such applications or not. If they don't they will love it, if they do have allergies they will appreciate that you called prior to doing the application. Customer service is what it is all about.

How would YOU like to be treated? Treat your customers the same way and you will be successful. I hope all this helps you.

Don't worry one bit about the length. I appreciate reading advice from an experienced detailer willing to help out a person starting out. I understand what you are saying and agree with your advice. I remember reading about the saying pertaining to "If it doesn't exceed your expectations it's free, etc." a while back and it has stuck with me. I also like the idea of throwing something in a little extra that doesn't take a lot of time but creates a significant impact on the overall appearance of the completed vehicle. Thank you for your advice, it is greatly appreciated and will be utilized in future details.

Im loving what Rick is saying. He could be charging for his sage advice. Totally rings true with other things I have done (I'm not an auto detailer).

As someone new to all of this....what strikes me is the need for you guys to educate the customer. They need to understand that going to a cut rate place is causing (the car) harm and them finanical damage. I think the average person doesn't understand this (lord knows I didn't).

I'm seeing some commments....like fair price for the customer....and I'm no professional....and they are making me think (the original poster) is lacking in self confidence. Would it make sense for him to aquire some training/education/knowledge in order for him to be self assured of what he offers the customer?


P.S. I'm now thinking I need to retire to Texas. Can a man sit on his front porch while drinking beer and shooting feral pigs.....and not be molested by the IRS, police, and revenuers?

Interesting and valid points. I will admit it, I do need to work on convincing my customers about the importance of the steps included a detail and educate them also. It is something that I have been lacking on and need to step up my game. I need to work on my self-confidence while talking with the customer. I feel confident in knowing a decent amount of detailing knowledge but I need to work on how to convey that to the customer. I understand what you are saying about the education and teaching. Like I said above in a post, you can only do so much reading IMO. If you want to really learn the only way is to gain experience on vehicles. I now know to never try anything new to me on a customer's vehicle if I am not 100% comfortable with performing the service.

I try to absorb as much as possible from the forums and apply it to my work and it has helped greatly already. I learn something new everyday I log on to the geek thanks to people like yourself and the others that play an active role in keeping this forum alive.

Possibly, but the best teacher is experience. Judging by the final look on this truck work ethic is not a problem, it's a knockout. The vehicle has been transformed but with a minor boo boo. This is the BEST experience that no classroom can teach. I think this individual is confident in what he can do. Learning takes time and experience. I feel that after this incident he has gained a great deal of knowledge and is ready to advance.

Exactly, teachers can lead you in the right direction and get you off to a good start but is up to me how I take that information and apply it to detailing. You can never have too much experience IMO. Like I said before, I have learned many lessons throughout this experience and will have an effect on my future part-time business of detailing.

Again, thanks for all the help guys.

 

[geekdout]

After reading through all the posts so far and your responses to them I really have to say I am impressed with your attitude. I think simply by putting the situation out there and saying I made a mistake, now how should I make it better or what should I take away from it you are way ahead of most people your age.
If you are doing business with friends and family expect to get screwed, because very rarely do they expect to have to pay full price for your services. On a side note its not a good idea to date someone you work with.
Now on to the truck I think overall you did a great job and it is now much easier to sell. But there is no getting away from your mistake so I think in this case just because it is family its probably better to just walk away. If you want to install some vinyl decals to hide the stripes I would only do it at his expense. If your family member is really selling the truck most people will not even care about the marks although they might use that to get the price down.
On future details you must realize every car you do is different so you must inspect the car before giving any kind of estimate. Spend some time talking to them and even walk around the car together, try and figure out what there expectations of the detail are. While you are walking around the car together try and educate them a little bit and even point out some defects. Its also a great idea to take before and after pictures of your details just to remind your customers of the dramatic improvements you have made.

 

[RTexasF]

P.S. I'm now thinking I need to retire to Texas. Can a man sit on his front porch while drinking beer and shooting feral pigs.....and not be molested by the IRS, police, and revenuers?

Out of city limits you certainly can. I have multiple friends that do just that.

 

[kochdalton87]

After reading through all the posts so far and your responses to them I really have to say I am impressed with your attitude. I think simply by putting the situation out there and saying I made a mistake, now how should I make it better or what should I take away from it you are way ahead of most people your age.
If you are doing business with friends and family expect to get screwed, because very rarely do they expect to have to pay full price for your services. On a side note its not a good idea to date someone you work with.
Now on to the truck I think overall you did a great job and it is now much easier to sell. But there is no getting away from your mistake so I think in this case just because it is family its probably better to just walk away. If you want to install some vinyl decals to hide the stripes I would only do it at his expense. If your family member is really selling the truck most people will not even care about the marks although they might use that to get the price down.
On future details you must realize every car you do is different so you must inspect the car before giving any kind of estimate. Spend some time talking to them and even walk around the car together, try and figure out what there expectations of the detail are. While you are walking around the car together try and educate them a little bit and even point out some defects. Its also a great idea to take before and after pictures of your details just to remind your customers of the dramatic improvements you have made.

Thank you for your kind words and advice. You, along with several others have pointed out several good ideas that I will be sure to utilize in future details. Thank you.

 

[stilltipping3]

:buffing::dblthumb2:Listen up, I started doing details for $200-250 each. This was a complete paint correction(at least to my eye). I told every1 I was starting a business and all my friends scoffed at my price. It was hard at first. Then I called a few other car wash guys in town and asked them if they had extra work. I found a guy that is terrific. He only does car washes but advertised heavily and with his washes come people that ask for Heavy details(paint corrections). I have since negotiated a % for him and he sends me everything that comes in. I cant keep up. I don't have the time. Its crazy, from one week of hunting and whoring out myself to the next of having to meet people to do appraisals on their cars which turn into Details jobs. I now charge $450 to start and the cars must not be in horrible shape on the interior. Not a day goes by where I don't have to contact somebody for an appointment. Im actually getting stressed out since I don't want to leave my real job yet(it pays well and I don't do anything) but I would like to do all these cars as well. I am looking to start training a new guy soon. So don't be so hard on yourself about the price. Work you people until you can say NO to people that don't want to pay what you charge. Im at $50 an hr and I never thought it would hit that high. Just my story and I hope it helps. Ps, Sema is here this weekend and my buddy has so many cars to prep he has me going in just to do a polish on some rims. $150 he is giving me for a few hrs since he know I am charging so much. People WILL PAY when they know you are doing cars and good work. Just work the system.Im the MAN

 

[beamerstrumpet]

P.S. I'm now thinking I need to retire to Texas. Can a man sit on his front porch while drinking beer and shooting feral pigs.....and not be molested by the IRS, police, and revenuers?

NOPE LOLOLOL.

Well maybe for a short time, if you can find some unadultrated land. Hell they are paying a guy to capture them or kill them in the middle of the park in Dallas and ft worth. (he sends them to china and japan as a delicasy (sp) )

 

[kochdalton87]

:buffing::dblthumb2:Listen up, I started doing details for $200-250 each. This was a complete paint correction(at least to my eye). I told every1 I was starting a business and all my friends scoffed at my price. It was hard at first. Then I called a few other car wash guys in town and asked them if they had extra work. I found a guy that is terrific. He only does car washes but advertised heavily and with his washes come people that ask for Heavy details(paint corrections). I have since negotiated a % for him and he sends me everything that comes in. I cant keep up. I don't have the time. Its crazy, from one week of hunting and whoring out myself to the next of having to meet people to do appraisals on their cars which turn into Details jobs. I now charge $450 to start and the cars must not be in horrible shape on the interior. Not a day goes by where I don't have to contact somebody for an appointment. Im actually getting stressed out since I don't want to leave my real job yet(it pays well and I don't do anything) but I would like to do all these cars as well. I am looking to start training a new guy soon. So don't be so hard on yourself about the price. Work you people until you can say NO to people that don't want to pay what you charge. Im at $50 an hr and I never thought it would hit that high. Just my story and I hope it helps. Ps, Sema is here this weekend and my buddy has so many cars to prep he has me going in just to do a polish on some rims. $150 he is giving me for a few hrs since he know I am charging so much. People WILL PAY when they know you are doing cars and good work. Just work the system.Im the MAN

Thanks for the advice. I too have a few connections with businesses similar to those that may provide possible work in the future if I feel the need to pursue them. Sounds like you have a very successful business on your hands, keep up the good work.

 

[kochdalton87]

Just an update for anyone that is curious to what came out of the situation. I did get to meet and discuss with my family member last night and I said I didn't feel right taking the full price because of the mistake and told him to he can accept the truck how it is, free of charge, or I offered to front the cost of getting the side of the bed repainted.
He said he wasn't going to make me get it repainted because of the several other defects on the truck and offered to pay my supplies that were used. Overall he was very understanding and not angry at all.

Thanks again to everyone that gave their advice throughout this situation. It was extremely helpful and appreciated. Several lessons were learned in result of this situation and I feel it has affected me positively for future detailing encounters.

 

[Vegas Transplant]

Several lessons were learned in result of this situation and I feel it has affected me positively for future detailing encounters.

Well said.
Looking forward to future show & shines rops:

Happy detailing... :autowash: :buffing:

 

[beamerstrumpet]

Not to sound like a pesimistic a##, but even though you had a minor mishap, the rest of the truck looks 200 times better than when he gave it to you. You did the right thing (dont want you to think otherwise) but your family member got off light, and he should have had some family honor and paid you at least half. It was the least he could have done. That truck was ragged out paintwise and you turned it into a respectable looking ride. As you noted, You learned some hard lessons. I feel for you. Glad there is peace in the family. But what a cost.