Frustrated with Swirl Removal

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GG4411

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Hey guys,
I used my new PC today for the first time. on my mustang (black). It had light scratches/swirls from mainly washing and drying it in the past. But other than the scratches, the paint underneath was very clear and deep black.

So I began with a LC orange pad with XMT #2 worked it in 6 sections passes, and wiped off with a clean microfiber. I followed that up with a LC white pad and XMT #1. I did this outside in the shade by the way. After cleaning the #1 off, I used my high powered LED flashlight to compare the test spot to the rest of the car.

I noticed many more light circular swirls in the paint in the test spot than on the rest of the car. The test spot seemed to have lost its "clarity" underneath the original scratches. I was very disappointed so tried again with this combo:

LC orange pad with PB SSR 2.5
LC white pad with PB SSR 1
LC gray pad with PB polish w/ carnuaba

Still, new circular swirls appeared in the test area. I don't understand, the test area kind of looks worse than the rest of the car. All pads were new, all microfibers were new, and the car was just washed/clayed.

Please someone help me out! :(
 
Is this a newer Mustang, if so the clear is on the harder side. A few things could be the cause, there could be some type of debris on your pads, not enough polish on the pad, or the most probable cause the polishes you are using are not strong enough.
 
orange pads are quite abrasive and you may see micromarring from them. Have you tried to move to the white pad using the same polish first ?? Sometimes it will break down and bring back the gloss and reflection. Then you can move to lighter pad and finishing pad.
 
I will have to try that next time, I just stopped for the day.

So this should eliminate the mircomarring?
LC white SSR 2.5
LC white SSR 1
LC gray finishing polish/glaze
 
GG4411 said:
I will have to try that next time, I just stopped for the day.

So this should eliminate the mircomarring?
LC white SSR 2.5
LC white SSR 1
LC gray finishing polish/glaze
Click to expand...

This might, but depending, like I said above if you have a newer Mustang the clear is on the harder side and these polishes probably will not do the trick.
 
Sounds like you are not working the polish enough. I had the same trouble with the XMT polishes. I have no experience with the SSR polishes.

Megs 105/205 combos worked well for me on my Mustang (2008).
105/orange
205/white
205/gray

Probly couldve gone another step with MEnz PO85rd on grey, but, I did not have any. The white hides a little of the marring anyway.
 
agree with 5.4 shleby. thie 'worst' appearance to me sounds like it's caused from polish that didn't get a chance to finish down. How much pressure are you using? draw a line on your backing plate using a sharpie. When polishing on speed 6, you should apply enough pressure to cause the rotation to be about 1-2 revolutions per second. The black mark on the backing plate also trains you to keep the pad flat on the surface because if it's not completely flat, you'll notice the irregular rotation. Do this with a 4 inch orange pad and M105 and I guaruntee you'll see a huge improvement. You might even convince yourself to go straight to the wax step, but step down to a finishing polish and a finishing pad.
 
I am going to ask the obvious question... Did you clay the car before polishing it?
 
PerroneFord said:
What about that was confusing?
Click to expand...

Why would that have anything to do with the marring. Just because you don't clay a vehicle doesn't mean it is going to cause marring. That is why I am confused, it has no relevance on the problem.
 
As I said above, yes I clayed the car. Thanks for the responses, I will be sure to try something new next time.
 
GG4411 said:
As I said above, yes I clayed the car. Thanks for the responses, I will be sure to try something new next time.
Click to expand...

I apologize. I read your post three times and still have not seen where you mentioned you clayed the car. But if you did, that answers my question.
 
ASPHALT ROCKET said:
Why would that have anything to do with the marring. Just because you don't clay a vehicle doesn't mean it is going to cause marring. That is why I am confused, it has no relevance on the problem.
Click to expand...

Apparently, your perspective and mine differ. But that's ok. Personally, my belief is that if you leave contaminants in the paint surface, then move dislodge them with a polishing machine, it's going to adversely affect the paint. Apparently, you feel differently.

No problem.
 
GG4411 said:
So I began with a LC orange pad with XMT #2 worked it in 6 sections passes, and wiped off with a clean microfiber.

I followed that up with a LC white pad and XMT #1.

I did this outside in the shade by the way. After cleaning the #1 off, I used my high powered LED flashlight to compare the test spot to the rest of the car.

I noticed many more light circular swirls in the paint in the test spot than on the rest of the car. The test spot seemed to have lost its "clarity" underneath the original scratches. I was very disappointed so tried again with this combo:

LC orange pad with PB SSR 2.5
LC white pad with PB SSR 1
LC gray pad with PB polish w/ Carnauba

Still, new circular swirls appeared in the test area. I don't understand, the test area kind of looks worse than the rest of the car. All pads were new, all microfibers were new, and the car was just washed/clayed.

Please someone help me out! :(
Click to expand...



What you're seeing is what is referred to as micro-marring or hazing, it's caused by the "Action" of a D.A. Polisher and the abrasives and the foam, it's a combination of all 3 factors.

I'm guessing and hoping that to this point you're still just doing a Test Spot and you haven not buffed out the entire car?

Some paints are more susceptible to micro-marring than others and you only find this out after doing some testing. One reason I like to recommend the Menzerna and Wolfgang products is because to date, I've found their abrasive formulas to be pretty fail-safe on any clear coat.


A good combination to recover from this would be,

Wolgfang Total Swirl Remover 3.0 or Menzerna Super Intensive Polish, (SIP) PO83

Wolfgang Finishing Glaze 3.0 or Menzerna Super Finish Nano PO 106 FA


You can try testing with the least aggressive products again, (the XMT #1 and the Poorboy's SSR 1), and start out at the 5.0 to 6.0 Speed Setting and work the test section for 4-6 passes with firm pressure and then bring your pressure up to just a little more than the weight of the machine, move the polisher a little faster over the surface and make 2, 3, 4 more section passes but just don't buff to a dry buff.

Then inspect.

From reading your post, it sounds like you're doing everything right so my guess is more testing isn't going to work but it's worth a try. Since you used the term "Section Pass" I'm going to assume you've watched this video too...

Doing a Section Pass with a DA Polisher


:)
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
What you're seeing is what is referred to as micro-marring or hazing, it's caused by the "Action" of a D.A. Polisher and the abrasives and the foam, it's a combination of all 3 factors.

I'm guessing and hoping that to this point you're still just doing a Test Spot and you haven not buffed out the entire car?

Some paints are more susceptible to micro-marring than others and you only find this out after doing some testing. One reason I like to recommend the Menzerna and Wolfgang products is because to date, I've found their abrasive formulas to be pretty fail-safe on any clear coat.


A good combination to recover from this would be,

Wolgfang Total Swirl Remover 3.0 or Menzerna Super Intensive Polish, (SIP) PO83

Wolfgang Finishing Glaze 3.0 or Menzerna Super Finish Nano PO 106 FA


You can try testing with the least aggressive products again, (the XMT #1 and the Poorboy's SSR 1), and start out at the 5.0 to 6.0 Speed Setting and work the test section for 4-6 passes with firm pressure and then bring your pressure up to just a little more than the weight of the machine, move the polisher a little faster over the surface and make 2, 3, 4 more section passes but just don't buff to a dry buff.

Then inspect.

From reading your post, it sounds like you're doing everything right so my guess is more testing isn't going to work but it's worth a try. Since you used the term "Section Pass" I'm going to assume you've watched this video too...

Doing a Section Pass with a DA Polisher


:)
Click to expand...

Mike,

My initial 2 yrs of polishing have been easy as I have had a minimal amount of swirls. With the bad winter, this yr has been completely different, so I am having trouble with marring that gets minimized but not eliminated. I am using SIP and Nano with Edge pads. Yellow with SIP, to get rid of the swirls, then Nano with a blue pad, Nano again with a white pad. I intend to go over the whole car with 085RD on a white pad. Reflection looks great but I assume the slight marring may show up after adding 4* sealant and Souveran wax or at the very least, hinder a good wet look.

It’s a frustrating situation as no one in the neighborhood does this, so I’m on my ownso I’m trying to figure this out After watching the DA video some questions:
1. Are you moving that slowly because it’s a PC or would you do the same with a Flex?
2. You used a lot of product in a small area, is that the norm for most, if not all polishes?
3. I noticed you did not have to use IA or similar to wash away the polish to see if the swirls are gone. I find to use the Brinkman light you truly have to wash away every streak to see a swirl. Bad thing is marring doesn’t appear to show up
Sorry for the long post but just want to do the rest of this year's polishing done marring free and ready for next spring.

Thanks,
Howard
 
I don't have any exp with the polishes your using but it sounds to me like it's just a matter of breaking down the polish fully. Just be absolutely sure that you have removed all the marks from the previous step before moving to the next step. If the paint is hard you may need to do an entire section (several section passes) more than once. Before finishing any given polishing step try one last pass, with less pressure, on a lower speed setting and moving extra slow. Do this pass when the polish has been worked until it's almost clear but not until it dry's out completely. A very light spritz of water or pad lube can help with this final section pass (if needed). I always try to polish until there is almost nothing to wipe up afterward, just trying to be sure the polish is fully broken down (I use Menz polishes they have diminishing abrasives, not sure about the SSR polishes). Just my $0.02, you gotta find what works for you.

Good luck! Be sure to let us know what worked for you when you get it right (you will). :dblthumb2:

ASPHALT ROCKET said:
Why would that have anything to do with the marring. Just because you don't clay a vehicle doesn't mean it is going to cause marring. That is why I am confused, it has no relevance on the problem.
Click to expand...

I thought that was the point of claying, to remove embedded contaminates so they don't get in your pad and mar the finish when you polish or wax etc. (and just to clean the paint in general, of course). :confused:

PerroneFord said:
I apologize. I read your post three times and still have not seen where you mentioned you clayed the car. But if you did, that answers my question.
Click to expand...

It's at the end of his post ;)

GG4411 said:
...All pads were new, all microfibers were new, and the car was just washed/clayed.
Click to expand...
 
The first time I tried I experienced the exact problem with the XMT #2 & #1 products with the same pads and the PC on my Cadillac STS. Unless I missed it, you didn't mention what speed you set the PC to. I used the speeds recommended on the product description page which is 4-5 but didn"t get the results I expected, just couldn't seem to remove the swirl marks. Then I got the opportunity to talk to Ed at the Pinnacle table during DetailFest last month and explained my problem to him. He advised me to set the PC speed to 6, work the polishes longer and in his words "let her fly Baby". I did exactly what he said and it was like night and day..!!! I'm thrilled with the results.
 
YankeeFan said:
1. Are you moving that slowly because it’s a PC or would you do the same with a Flex?
Click to expand...

I'm moving the DA as slow as I show because you have to give the COMBINATION of foam formula, (foam formula is a factor in aggressiveness or non-aggressiveness), abrasives, the downward pressure and TIME for the oscillating action of the DA to affect the paint. By the word affect I mean take little bites out of it because the way you remove any below surface defects is to remove a little paint off the surface surrounding the defect until the surface is completely flat.

If you move any polisher too fast over the surface you don't give the combination of abrading factors enough time to affect the paint.

Same thing would apply to any electric polisher except the more power the tool has means more aggressive cutting action = moving the polisher a tick quicker, but overall, paint is removed best when the polisher is moved slowly over the surface not so fact the pad is merely skimming over the surface.

There are some variables that could have a HUGE effect on the above general statement like type of abrasive; a VERY aggressive abrasive will cut incredibly fast, (for example, XMT 4), so that would mean moving the polisher faster, especially if we were talking about a rotary buffer instead of a DA Polisher.



YankeeFan said:
2. You used a lot of product in a small area, is that the norm for most, if not all polishes?
Click to expand...

Some guys use 3 dots of product as say that's the best, so find a way that works for you, here's what I know, when you first start out some of your product is going to seep into the pad until the pad gets a little wet over the entire surface to some level so you need a little extra product to counter this issue. This is where I like the KBM method of pre-wetting the entire surface with product so the entire surface is wet with product and then of course the entire surface starts right off the bat cutting the paint. You'll find if you make a circle pattern or an x-pattern and do this 2-3 times that you will accomplish kind of the same thing, that is the entire face of the pad will become wet with product. Then if you spread subsequent applications of product out over the surface to create a uniform layer of un-worked product, then as you work a section 100% of the pad is now working for you.

As you break your pad in you can of course cut down on the amount of product you work for a section. Anytime you work a smaller section than about 20" squarish or so you can cut down the amount of product you use. Anytime the paint is in good shape and you don't have a lot of correction to do you can cut down on the amount of product you use.

If you find the paint is easily corrected, that is the paint is very easy to buff, then you can cut down on the amount of product you use.

All of the above is kind of hard to pack into a video, for the majority of newbies to machine polishing, making a circle pattern or an x pattern is a pretty "Bubba-Proof" way to get them started and like everyone else they can find their own way with time spent behind behind the polisher and with time spend on the forum and reading other's opinions on the topic and doing some testing in their garage.


YankeeFan said:
3. I noticed you did not have to use IA or similar to wash away the polish to see if the swirls are gone. I find to use the Brinkman light you truly have to wash away every streak to see a swirl. Bad thing is marring doesn’t appear to show up.
Click to expand...

Again, it's kind of difficult to get that deep in a how-to video, (try it sometime), most comments about any video I've ever made usually say I include too much detail, not too little.

That's where combining a discussion forum with a video gives you and others reading a chance to discuss, learn and tweak your own technique till you get your system perfected.


YankeeFan said:
Sorry for the long post but just want to do the rest of this year's polishing done marring free and ready for next spring.


Thanks,

Howard
Click to expand...

I would not call this a long post, here's an example of a long post...

Tips and Techniques for using the PC 7424XP Dual Action Polisher to remove Below Surface Defects




:)
 
PerroneFord said:
Apparently, your perspective and mine differ. But that's ok. Personally, my belief is that if you leave contaminants in the paint surface, then move dislodge them with a polishing machine, it's going to adversely affect the paint. Apparently, you feel differently.

No problem.
Click to expand...

You do not have to clay before polishing but it makes it a lot easier to start your polishing. Also the contaminants are so small that are in the paint that they are not going to mar the paint while polishing. The reason I said that about your clay comment because it was more than obvious that the pad was marring the surface so asking about claying the paint had nothing to do with the op's problem, that is why I was confused by your post.

[QUOTE=A4 1.8tqm;308140
I thought that was the point of claying, to remove embedded contaminates so they don't get in your pad and mar the finish when you polish or wax etc. (and just to clean the paint in general, of course). :confused:

Like I said above you do not have to clay paint before polishing but it makes it easier from the start. A much better base to start with, I even go as far as wiping down with a solvent after claying. Once in awhile I don't clay before polishing and never have had any marring because I did clay, trying to blame contaminants marring the paint is pointless.Now leaving big blobs of tar or some other type of debris on the paint I would agree if the pad caught it and carried along it would mar the paint, but I would hope one would be smart enough to remove that type of debris before polishing. The contaminates that are embedded in the paint are not going to mar the paint. Plus look at this way also if you are worried about marring the paint. While you are polishing paint the polish is grabbing the dead paint/clear and it is getting into your pad as you polish and it does not mar unless you let the pad get caked up with polish, which that polish is holding dead paint and clumping up in the pad. In the end I would be more worried about the polish in the pad from polishing as I go before worried about if I clayed the paint.
 
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