Guitar detailing 101?

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LowSlowJoe

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Ok, so... I recently purchased a decent used electric guitar which apparently has a nitrocellulose lacquer 'satin' finish on it. The guitar is in pretty good shape overall and plays very well. However, there are parts of the finish that need a good cleaning and even potentially a good polishing.

Now, as I understand it, nitrocellulose lacquer has some issues with regard to how it interacts with certain solvents and such. There are recommendations not to leave leather straps on it when stored, not sitting it on stands with vinyl, rubber, and plastics, etc... apparently things like that can interact with the finish and damage it.

Then, there are other discussions out there about polishes that are good and/or bad for guitars in general, particularly if you should ever need or want to have a scratch repair or other retouching of the original finish. Most of these center around polishes or cleaning products that contain silicone. It seems if silicone gets into the wood, it becomes virtually impossible to ever remove from the wood.

So, I'm wondering what , if any kind of wisdom might be gleaned from a car detailing forum... Particularly with regard to finding paint cleaning, polishing, or sealing products that don't contain silicone. It seems that vast majority of car care products do contain some silicone or at least some component of silicone.

Now for car care, I've come to be a firm believer in Duragloss products. However it's a little unclear which if any of their products contain silicone.

Then I stumbled across some internet posts which discuss Optimum Car Care products, such as Opti-Seal... and statements that seem to indicate that product doesn't contain any silicone.

I've seen a list about Meguiares products that lists item by item which ones are "body shop safe", which presumably also at least in part refers to if there is any silicone in them. It turns out, that the vast majority of Meguiar's products have silicones and other ingredients which make them not "body shop safe".

I've seen posts from "Doctor G" that seem to indicate that none of Optium's products have silicone in them. But then perhaps I was reading too much into statements he's mad.

One thing, I'm also unclear on... is what exactly is polyaminosiloxane is and how it may or may not be different then silicone.

Or, well I'm beginning to wonder if I should or need to become a chemist to have any real chance of understanding the pros and/or cons of any of this.

Anyone want to take a shot at words of advice to someone trying to detail a electric guitar without damaging it , or making it harder to work on in the future?
 
I'll suggest a "treatment" of:
Meguiar's M07 Show Car Glaze; followed by:
Meguiar's M26 Hi-Tech Paste Car Wax.


Bob
 
I have several guitars and have NEVER used any compounds or solvents on any of the finishes. I use a microfiber or guitar polish cloth and wipe the guitar down when I am done playing. I also take a piece of old tshirt and wipe each string to help them last longer and sound better.

I am under the philosophy that as you play a guitar, you age a guitar gracefully and slowly give it more character over time. Each scratch, nick, dent, weather check, and flaw should be appreciated as it tells a story. If you have an old dirty guitar, which I have acquired one (1981 Ibanez Studio, it was REALLY bad and spent the last 25 years in a basement) I just wiped it off with a wet microfiber. Polished it up with a dry one and it was good to go!

Remember, it's not all about how it LOOKS, but how it SOUNDS! I've played the most beat up Strats you could imagine, but you could taste the tone!

I have polished the bridges and tuners with Blue Magic or Collinite Metal Wax. I have used lemon oil on rosewood fretboards if they start to dry out.

OK, so spill it, what do you have? I want pics!
 
I've machine polished and hand polished a number of guitars in my life, to do so or not just depends upon what you want for appearance finish.

The acid in your sweat can dull and actually corrode the finish and a light polishing can restore clarity and gloss just like you would do to oxidized lacquer.

Unless it's really old my guess is it's not nitrocellulose lacquer but an acrylic lacquer. Nitrocellulose lacquer is a paint formula from the 1920's or 1930's whereas acrylic lacquer is from the 1930's or 1940's and was used all the way up to the 1960's.

If the finish is dull you can use a real light cut polish by hand or even a simple paint cleaner. Think M205 or M09 or even ScratchX etc. Use foam pads by machine or by hand, take the gentle approach.

Then hit it with the #7 Show Car Glaze, basically a feeder oil for single stage paints and seal with a slippery wax like M20 or Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant.


:)
 
Well , in my hands... it doesn't sound like much but, I know that's just cause it's me.

The guitar is a 2005 PRS Standard 24 ( all mahogany body/neck, no maple top, rosewood fretboard ) It's not one of those customs with the 10 top maple and such... in fact it's not even the '20th anniversary' models with the swooping birds. It's pretty clearly a guitar that was purchased to be played, not put on display. It does have the bird inlays, just not the fancy 20th anniversary ones...

It has a 'satin' finish, or did... that is, when it was new, it was intentionally not super shiny, the wood grain isn't filled, etc... over time of it's previous owner's use, much of the guitar's finish got polished by arms, hands, and I assume cloth of wiping it down from time to time. Under the strings between the pickups and between the bridge and pickup are some of the only spots that still have the 'satin' finish/look. It doesn't really have any major damage, the only parts that kinda irritate me, are the few spots that are left which are still clearly satin, and it's not just that they are satin, but you can see where the owner had pushed a cloth in as far as he could with his finger to clean up... it just looks odd when you look closely at these areas. I'd rather just take some mild compound and clean these areas up making them look more like the rest of the guitar does.

I'll try to post a photo or two soon... but as of yet, some of the photos I took, don't really do it justice..


damaged442 said:
I have several guitars and have NEVER used any compounds or solvents on any of the finishes. I use a microfiber or guitar polish cloth and wipe the guitar down when I am done playing. I also take a piece of old tshirt and wipe each string to help them last longer and sound better.

I am under the philosophy that as you play a guitar, you age a guitar gracefully and slowly give it more character over time. Each scratch, nick, dent, weather check, and flaw should be appreciated as it tells a story. If you have an old dirty guitar, which I have acquired one (1981 Ibanez Studio, it was REALLY bad and spent the last 25 years in a basement) I just wiped it off with a wet microfiber. Polished it up with a dry one and it was good to go!

Remember, it's not all about how it LOOKS, but how it SOUNDS! I've played the most beat up Strats you could imagine, but you could taste the tone!

I have polished the bridges and tuners with Blue Magic or Collinite Metal Wax. I have used lemon oil on rosewood fretboards if they start to dry out.

OK, so spill it, what do you have? I want pics!
Click to expand...
 
Just to note, silicone won't physically harm paint.

The problem it "can" cause is called fish eyes IF you ever repaint something.

In the REAL WORLD the person doing the painting does what is called,

Prep the surface


This removes anything that would cause fish eyes. On that note, ANYTHING that causes water to bead, you know like any car wax, synthetic paint sealant, table margarine, etc. would cause fish eyes in paint not just silicone.

No painter, for guitars or cars simply sprays paint over the existing surface. :dunno:

So much misinformation on the topic of silicone.


Check this out...

The Role Silicone Plays in Car Care Products


:)
 
The guitar in question, is a PRS Standard 24 fret with wide/thin neck, faded cherry satin finish. Final inspection was done on 12/29/2005, so it's 9th birthday is coming up soon. :)

Here's the body of the guitar, I think this shows the 'dull' or 'satin' areas that still exist... that I am basically trying to get rid of, or make less dramatic. Now, I think for purists and/or resale value ( not that there really is any large resale value for this guitar ), they might say leave it as it is...

However, I think it looks odd, I would rather the 'shine' of the surface be a bit more uniform then it currently is. I also intend to clean up the metal on the tremolo bridge. I started to use a little Meguiar's ultimate compound on it ( which as I understand it is 'body shop safe' ) With this, I've been able to clean up and gloss up some of the duller areas, and depending on how hard/fast I rub, I can get it to the sheen that I desire pretty easily.

So, at this point, I'm mainly thinking about what if anything, I would like to put on the finish to protect it, from things like sweat, oils from fingers/hands... and such.

Given it's not a high gloss finish, I don't know that I need anything to actually make it shine more, but I could see that some sort of sealer might be nice.

As for it being , or not being nitrocellulose lacquer... from the research I've done to this point, that is what it is. I can and probably will call PRS and find out definitively soon.

Now, there is a alternative plan... that is, try to take the finish back to it's original 'satin' look. However, from what I've read, the only way to do that, would be to take something like 0000 steel wool to the surface and intentionally scuff it up. Then, over time, of playing it, the surfaces that see most use would begin to become glossier again. I'm currently leaning away from this alternative plan...

PRSStd24crop1_zpsf7adee44.jpg
 
Yes, well there seems to be a lot of misinformation in general about silicone :) Even more so when it comes to issues related to musical instruments... Near as I can tell, I only have two real concerns about silicone... one is that I'm not sure I want any of it getting on my fretboard. The other, is as it relates to potentially getting into the wood itself bellow the surface of the finish on the body/neck.

I don't see any big cracking in the finish of this guitar so I'm not overly concerned about it getting under the finish. I do also understand that if I did ever want to actually re-paint some part of the guitar, surface prep would have to be done and would indeed be the job of the person doing the painting, to make sure it was as clean as could be and didn't have issues with fish eye.

So, basically this only really leaves me with concern about getting silicone on the rosewood fretboard ( which as I understand it, probably doesn't have ANY finish on it at all ). It seems that, as long as I was careful not to apply polish to the fretboard even this shouldn't be a issue... unless there were to be silicone left on the surface of the other parts of the guitar that gets on my hands, then on the fretboard... which might be possible.

So, all in all, I'm still back at the point where , if at all possible, I want to try and avoid any sealer/wax that has significant amounts of silicone in it. If for no other reason then to say I didn't use a product with silicone in it.

As for a car finish... well... I really have no fear of silicone there.


Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Just to note, silicone won't physically harm paint.

The problem it "can" cause is called fish eyes IF you ever repaint something.

In the REAL WORLD the person doing the painting does what is called,

Prep the surface


This removes anything that would cause fish eyes. On that note, ANYTHING that causes water to bead, you know like any car wax, synthetic paint sealant, table margarine, etc. would cause fish eyes in paint not just silicone.

No painter, for guitars or cars simply sprays paint over the existing surface. :dunno:

So much misinformation on the topic of silicone.


Check this out...

The Role Silicone Plays in Car Care Products


:)
Click to expand...
 
Here's another shot of the guitar's body... this one clearly shows that the original finish was not the type that would smooth out the grain itself... just a sort of bare bones finish almost like a thick stain as opposed to a smooth thick paint...

At the time this guitar was made, I think it was about the lowest cost PRS guitar you could get... I think the original retail price on it would have been around $2200. 100% American made PRS standard 24. I paid $900 for it 9 years old... Custom 24s of this same vintage sell for closer to $1400 ~ $1500, those are the ones with the fancy maple tops and high gloss finishes...

PRSStd24crop2_zps0f8950ce.jpg
 
I agree that battle wounds = character
I have an Ibanez RG550 that is about 25-30yrs old and upgraded with Dimarzio Evo and Fender Lace Sensor pickups and I personally think its looks pretty cool with all the scars and scratches.
 
I've met, know and have talked to Paul Reed Smith on a number of occasions. I'm familiar with their guitars, held, examined many with 10 tops (flames, and qults, etc) held examined a number of PRS Dragons, and have even held and looked at Paul's own Dragon in a 7Up Candy Green 10 Top, and Serial #1! ($$$$$$$$$$$)

But virtually all of these were in high gloss, and suspect them to be of a Urethane Finish, not Laquer of any sort.

Now I've owned a few Basses in my day that were supposedly Nitrocellulose Laquer. Supposedly, the Fender American Re-Issue Basses such as the '57, '62 P-Basses and Jazz Basses are said to be Nitro Laquer.

Yeah, they are supposedly assembled here in America, but supposedly not painted here due to VOC Laws, thus are said to be painted south of the Border (Mexico)

Now with a high gloss finish, whether Laquers, or Urethanes, you would be usually safe using products such as 3M Imperial Hand Glaze, or any fine finishing auto polish from Megs, 3M, whomever.

But with a Satin finish such as you're showing, then all bets are off. Using any sort of Glaze, or Polish and most likely any auto waxes or sealants will alter the look of the finish.

Since the guitar is not supposed to look or be a high gloss finish, such could cause a loss of the instrument's value.

Again, it might look glossier, might look nicer, but the stock finish no longer looks "stock".

Any of the Spray waxes-guitar cleaners from the likes of Gibson, Fender, Smiths, Martin, etc etc should all be fine and not harm the Guitar.

As for wood Fretboards such as Rosewood, Ebony, Cocobolo, etc that are not sealed (Like many Rickenbackers were) then a common product to use is Lemon Oil to feed the Fretboard, and keep it from drying out.

I've owned a few expensive basses, particularly, Alembics, that were a PITA with drying out Fretboards which once that happened the frets would carve the hell out of your fingers. Fine files were needed to smooth sharp edges-ends as I went, and after awhile I got tired of thatt and dumped all 3 of them, about $5.5K worth of basses, at a loss.

Basically any-all decent Guitar shops, or others like Guitar Center usually carry a huge plethora of care products polishing cloths, etc.

Lastly, I wouldn't be afraid of calling PRS or e-mailing them direct. Since they make these fine instruments, they of course should know the best way to care for them.

Paul's a really great guy, would be grand if you got to personally speak with him.
 
All the guitars I like look like this:

11d7b8ebaeb1d8bb2baf97b84acd2ed9.jpg


cc7a0b9eec62c77af0b019792908825f.jpg


Definitely not into guitar detailing. Lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Well, see there you go... I could take a entirely different approach and start putting stickers all over it , then dragging it behind my car on the way to work. :)
 
One of the largest dangers I've commonly known about Nitro-Laquer guitar finishes, is the cold.

When I lived in Chicago, I never took out any of my Fender Re-Issue Basses, or other valuable basses (just to be safe)in the dead of winter.

To take an ice cold instrument open it up out of its case in a warm room, the finish could shatter-check-crack like taking a hammer to a candy apple. I've seen some where that had happened.

In winter for lessons, or to play out, I always grabbed my cheapie Yamaha BB200 Bass, didn't care about that one if something happened to it.
 
LowSlowJoe said:
Well, see there you go... I could take a entirely different approach and start putting stickers all over it , then dragging it behind my car on the way to work. :)
Click to expand...

Fender does that with some of their new models. And they charge you for the deliberate wear and tear to boot!
 
^ Those are 2 of the main guitars Sonic Youth used in the 1990s. Sadly, I think both have since been stolen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
OK, just got off the phone with PRS , they tell me that the finish is not a nitrocellulose lacquer, it is apparently urethane. At least that according to Matt King at PRS.

I think the confusion is that in one of their FAQ's they mention that they do some nitrocellulose lacquer , and they list 'satin' as one of those instances when they do. Previous research has let me to believe my guitar has a satin finish, but now I'm not even sure of that. Maybe it's just old and dull in those few spots...
 
Bro, play it. I've been playing since kindergarten (15 years) and detailing cars for 2 years. While I've though of polishing my guitars, I don't. I just okay it. I have a Gibson SG with a matte finish.... Well not matte anymore.
Just play brother.
 
LowSlowJoe said:
OK, just got off the phone with PRS , they tell me that the finish is not a nitrocellulose lacquer, it is apparently urethane. At least that according to Matt King at PRS.

I think the confusion is that in one of their FAQ's they mention that they do some nitrocellulose lacquer , and they list 'satin' as one of those instances when they do. Previous research has let me to believe my guitar has a satin finish, but now I'm not even sure of that. Maybe it's just old and dull in those few spots...
Click to expand...

From what I can see, the finish to me looks like it was originally satin, and was left purposely with an open grain type finish and look.

Thus, my thinking if you were to apply any type of glaze or to polish the finish with what we commonly use in the auto world, those residues left behind in the polishing-glazing processes may become trapped in the open grain-pores, and then become virtually impossible to remove.

You could try a very small area on the back of the instrument and see what he results are? Note that I think personally that you'll be taking a chance doing such.

Usually the spray waxes from the various guitar makers shouldn't be problematic, should enhance some gloss and eveness to a point.

Other alternatives, if you are not liking the existing finish, want to change it to a high gloss one, I'd probably look to a professional Luthier for such.
 
Resale???
Years ago I got a deal on a blond with maple 75 P-bass. I didn't like the color but loved the sound. Zip stripped it,sanded and a coat of black Krylon everyday for a month...0000 steel wool in between. Then on the final coat I rubbed it out with Gel-gloss because that is what I had.
Guy at the hip guitar store told me it was the best DIY paint job he had ever seen. After I told him. Never liked maple necks and sold it.
Still have a 87American standard strat and 93 American standard J-bass with rosewood necks. And they bathe in lemon oil.

Point is play it like it is or change it with some sandpaper/steel wool.

If it was mine that raw look and texture would have to go. I'ld sand it smooth then start rubbing oil in
 
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