Has anyone ever measured how much polishing removes?

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Romans5.8

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This is one of these things I tried searching, but the forum software removed most of my words for being too common. Leaving me with a search for 'polish' or 'cleacoat', obviously, giving me too many results.

Having a black, soft paint system on my new car I'm just wondering how much it can be polished in a long life. I mean, I could potentially own this car for 10 years! (I keep my DD's for a long time). So, could my car handle a regimen of Meg's UP (or even UC if it became more severe) every year; followed by SF4500 10 or 12 times? (Or M105/M205 for arguments sake).

It's pretty soft Ford Tuxedo Black. Just curious. I KNOW this has been asked before but on previous threads there didn't seem to be much of an answer- so I was just curious if anyone actually had some objective data on how much clearcoat was actually removed by polishing?

Using Google I've found a few threads on AGO but the consensus always seems to be "do it once or twice a year". Okay... but for how long? How thin will the CC be after a long life? Often that's being answered to people with cars they'll replace in a couple of years. Nobody seems to have an answer for 'how many times' you can really polish. Is there an answer?
 
There are so many variables however my understanding is anything less than 4 Mils is starting to get in the Beware/Zone depending your your polish of choice.
Word is once more than 75% of the clear is removed your getting into a failure scenario of the clear coat.
Most manufacturers say not to remove more than
.5 mil before you experience clear coat failure.


So I guess a good paint gauge would be necessary to really get a better idea of what your working with.

how much actual clear is removed is based on machine, pad and chemical etc used so a concrete removal number can vary.
However there are numbers floating around of 0.2 - 0.17 mils
 
AutoSparkle said:
There are so many variables however my understanding is anything less than 4 Mils is starting to get in the Beware/Zone depending your your polish of choice.
Word is once more than 75% of the clear is removed your getting into a failure scenario of the clear coat.
Most manufacturers say not to remove more than
.5 mil before you experience clear coat failure.


So I guess a good paint gauge would be necessary to really get a better idea of what your working with.

how much actual clear is removed is based on machine, pad and chemical etc used so a concrete removal number can vary.
However there are numbers floating around of 0.2 - 0.17 mils
Click to expand...


A PTG may be in my future I guess. Wish I knew someone local to borrow it once a year! hehe.

We'll see if I have to deal with scratches and stuff or not. I am concerned though in the winter and stuff about all of that grit scratching my car. I haven't inspected it yet after this storm.
 
Most body shops will have EPTG's. Phone around and explain your situation, they will be more than willing to help!

As far as "polishing" and "finishing" (aka gentle paint correction) will not even change the reading on a EPTG. Maybe 1 micron.

Where you start to thin is in aggressive compounding. two months ago I had a customer with a solid black lexus RX (2009); completely beat/washed with a brick, he wanted 90%+ correction + coating & wax. I wet sanded the entire car with 3000/5000 grit, then compounded with an agresive wool pad and FG400. All in all I took off 10-12 microns (110 average before work). When I went to the refining steps, I took off a micron (two steps of refining).

So if you polish your car twice a year to remove fine marring or "love marks" with a DA and polishing pad, I dont see you going thru the CC anytime soon. Paint will fail before you need to worry about punching thru!

Only time you need to worry about punching thru (different than burning with a rotary) is when sanding with 800-1500 grit. Anything under 1500 grit you start shaving it off fast.
 
Thanks guys!

So, a PTG may be what I need- hadn't considered calling around to a body shop. Heck, I'd pay 'em to take readings for me.

Now- I know this is general, and I know that one size does not fit all; but to give you some perspective; my previous car was a 2000 Saturn. 14 years old (Build in July 1999). Had zero clearcoat failure, paint looked pretty good. Was always well cared for, waxed/sealed frequently, and never allowed bird bombs to stay, etc. Lived outside most of it's life. (Even when we had a garage she lived outside. No room in the inn for the DD!). Some people tell me paint lasts 5-7 years and I just don't buy it. That's never been my experience. My wifes car is an '02 and also has zero clearcoat failure (As I said; we keep them a while!).

Reason I bring that up is the 'you won't go through it before the paint fails' comment- just want to make sure that's in the context of my expectation of having a car for, perhaps, 10+ years! I might trade it in in two years, I might have it for 20, who knows. But; if I did light polishing and correcting every year (It'll be washed properly; etc. It won't be 'hammered' ever, hopefully. But I've already found some very light scratches from the grit, ice, and slush on the car.)

So anyway- if I did, say, M205 followed my SF4500 every spring; and kept it sealed, waxed- do you think in 10 years I'll still be taking readings showing good clearcoat? That's just an 'out of curiosity' question- really. I realize that a PTG reading would be necessary after polishing it several times.

I sure hope that there will never be a time that things like wetsanding would be necessary, with the exception of touch ups or RIDS removal. (I'm sure I'll have to fix rock chips on the front now and then).
 
Romans5.8 said:
Thanks guys!

So, a PTG may be what I need- hadn't considered calling around to a body shop. Heck, I'd pay 'em to take readings for me.

Now- I know this is general, and I know that one size does not fit all; but to give you some perspective; my previous car was a 2000 Saturn. 14 years old (Build in July 1999). Had zero clearcoat failure, paint looked pretty good. Was always well cared for, waxed/sealed frequently, and never allowed bird bombs to stay, etc. Lived outside most of it's life. (Even when we had a garage she lived outside. No room in the inn for the DD!). Some people tell me paint lasts 5-7 years and I just don't buy it. That's never been my experience. My wifes car is an '02 and also has zero clearcoat failure (As I said; we keep them a while!).

Reason I bring that up is the 'you won't go through it before the paint fails' comment- just want to make sure that's in the context of my expectation of having a car for, perhaps, 10+ years! I might trade it in in two years, I might have it for 20, who knows. But; if I did light polishing and correcting every year (It'll be washed properly; etc. It won't be 'hammered' ever, hopefully. But I've already found some very light scratches from the grit, ice, and slush on the car.)

So anyway- if I did, say, M205 followed my SF4500 every spring; and kept it sealed, waxed- do you think in 10 years I'll still be taking readings showing good clearcoat? That's just an 'out of curiosity' question- really. I realize that a PTG reading would be necessary after polishing it several times.

I sure hope that there will never be a time that things like wetsanding would be necessary, with the exception of touch ups or RIDS removal. (I'm sure I'll have to fix rock chips on the front now and then).
Click to expand...

By that remark, I really was referring to the context of the life span you are planning on owning the car. If you maintain it well, paint will last a lot longer. Some of the newer paint I have seen (say 5 years old) has looked 2-3 times older than it should.

I have never seen paint punch thru purely from polishing.

If I were you, I would try SF4500 on a white pad and see what that gets out (or SF4000 for that matter). If paint preservation is key to you, start mild.

I have polished my Lexus with finishing polishes (SF4500, 4000, POLISHANGEL MASTER POLISH and INVINCIBLE, Swissvax Mild, Vic Wax Mild, Sonax PF) and I have seen maybe 1-2 micron loss over the dozen times. Only time it get bigger is sanding and compounding. So to answer your question, absolutely - good readings all around.

With regards to wetsanding, I dont recommend someone to try it out for the first time on their car. There is a real art to sanding and its all touch having the right touch and feel - not to mention good sand paper (a box of 2500, 3000, and 5000 was around $500 for me).

All in all, if you wash and dry carefully (drying is the most important part, people really forget this!!!), you wont have anything really bad (all of my cars have love marks in them) to deal with - thus prolong the thickness.
 
Andr3wilson said:
By that remark, I really was referring to the context of the life span you are planning on owning the car. If you maintain it well, paint will last a lot longer. Some of the newer paint I have seen (say 5 years old) has looked 2-3 times older than it should.

I have never seen paint punch thru purely from polishing.

If I were you, I would try SF4500 on a white pad and see what that gets out (or SF4000 for that matter). If paint preservation is key to you, start mild.

I have polished my Lexus with finishing polishes (SF4500, 4000, POLISHANGEL MASTER POLISH and INVINCIBLE, Swissvax Mild, Vic Wax Mild, Sonax PF) and I have seen maybe 1-2 micron loss over the dozen times. Only time it get bigger is sanding and compounding. So to answer your question, absolutely - good readings all around.

With regards to wetsanding, I dont recommend someone to try it out for the first time on their car. There is a real art to sanding and its all touch having the right touch and feel - not to mention good sand paper (a box of 2500, 3000, and 5000 was around $500 for me).

All in all, if you wash and dry carefully (drying is the most important part, people really forget this!!!), you wont have anything really bad (all of my cars have love marks in them) to deal with - thus prolong the thickness.
Click to expand...

Oh okay, I was wondering.

Who knows- I might have it for just a few years; but I might have it for a LONG time (even if I just keep it as a spare car- something else I've done in the past. I've actually never traded in a car- always sell myself or even hang on to it for a bit). So I wanted to be prepared for what sort of 'long term' work is needed.

I can't imagine I'll have any need to wetsand. Again, aside from very small things like rock chip repair.

Hopefully, just a few love marks here and there and that's it. And, again, this awful snow and ice. We get a storm like this every couple of years, and snow about once a year. But when that slush builds up it sticks to the car, filled with rocks, grit, salt, and sand. It then either slides down off the panel or gets pushed off with a pressure washer. That is where I think I'll get the most scratches, so I was planning on polishing every spring.

Because I live in an apartment- there will be a lot of waterless and rinseless washing involved. So I imagine that may introduce some marring as well.
 
Romans5.8 said:
Oh okay, I was wondering.

Who knows- I might have it for just a few years; but I might have it for a LONG time (even if I just keep it as a spare car- something else I've done in the past. I've actually never traded in a car- always sell myself or even hang on to it for a bit). So I wanted to be prepared for what sort of 'long term' work is needed.

I can't imagine I'll have any need to wetsand. Again, aside from very small things like rock chip repair.

Hopefully, just a few love marks here and there and that's it. And, again, this awful snow and ice. We get a storm like this every couple of years, and snow about once a year. But when that slush builds up it sticks to the car, filled with rocks, grit, salt, and sand. It then either slides down off the panel or gets pushed off with a pressure washer. That is where I think I'll get the most scratches, so I was planning on polishing every spring.

Because I live in an apartment- there will be a lot of waterless and rinseless washing involved. So I imagine that may introduce some marring as well.
Click to expand...

Anytime you touch the paint, you risk the chance of marring. I have found a safe route personally in my setup, but you have to work with what you have.

No matter how long you have a car, keeping it in top notch condition is always in your best interest.
 
Andr3wilson said:
Anytime you touch the paint, you risk the chance of marring. I have found a safe route personally in my setup, but you have to work with what you have.

No matter how long you have a car, keeping it in top notch condition is always in your best interest.
Click to expand...

Can I ask what that setup is, just out of curiosity?

Though I assume that being a pro detailer a 2 bucket wash is a pretty easy thing to come by!

Ideally, I'd love to do a 2 bucket wash in the "Larry Kosilla" method, using a foam gun to 'shoot' into the wash mitt to provide extra lubrication.
 
Romans5.8 said:
Can I ask what that setup is, just out of curiosity?

Though I assume that being a pro detailer a 2 bucket wash is a pretty easy thing to come by!

Ideally, I'd love to do a 2 bucket wash in the "Larry Kosilla" method, using a foam gun to 'shoot' into the wash mitt to provide extra lubrication.
Click to expand...

Sure! Living in edmonton, we don't you salt to melt, rather we use gravel and dirt for grip. This builds up a thick film of dirt on the body (along with sandblasting the front and destroying windshields). The best way for me:

-Rinse

-Presoak: I use 1Z W99 diluted 1:20 in a pressure sprayer, LSP safe and works great. Apply to entire car, allow to dwell

-Pressure wash rinse

-Foam

-2BM wash - typically at this stage the pre soak has removed most surface dirt. Mitt and rinse water doesn't get too dirty. Light light pressure, hand is mearly there to stop the mitt from falling off.

-Rinse

-Air dry with master blaster. Or if a lazy I use a special 800gsm towel and POLISHANGEL SPRAYDUSTER as a drying aid.

I have tried shooting the foam, but you end up going thru a ton of soap and I didn't really notice a big difference. It's just a safe thing to do... I like to live dangerously lol.
 
Richard Griots says that clear coat is about the depth of a post it note and that when you polish you remove microns of paint, which is negligible. If you always follow the rule "use the least aggressive tool to get the job done, considering pad and polish" your paint will last. Hope this helps.
 
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Quick PTG question that I've been wondering about for a few weeks... What exactly does the PTG measure? The distance between the surface and the metal?

If so, how does that help you to determine how much you can or can't polish, since it says nothing about the amount of clear?

My car was repainted earlier this year, so I assume that a PTG reading on it will probably be higher than many other vehicles, but doesn't mean there is any more [or less] clear to be polished away.

[Just thinking out loud...]
 
Romans5.8 said:
Some people tell me paint lasts 5-7 years and I just don't buy it. That's never been my experience. My wifes car is an '02 and also has zero clearcoat failure (As I said; we keep them a while!)
Click to expand...

I don't by this statement either. I've had a run of cars that were older than that and I owned them far longer. Of the whole line, only one began to show clear and paint failure. It was a 14-year old Subaru and the only reason it had paint issues was because I was the first of it's three owners to ever put or sealant on it!

Thank you for starting this thread. Over the last year, I've started to really step up my game in regards to car care (moving from simply waxing to actually polishing) and have been worried about the long term effects.

Great discussion.
 
Desertnate said:
I don't by this statement either. I've had a run of cars that were older than that and I owned them far longer. Of the whole line, only one began to show clear and paint failure. It was a 14-year old Subaru and the only reason it had paint issues was because I was the first of it's three owners to ever put or sealant on it!

Thank you for starting this thread. Over the last year, I've started to really step up my game in regards to car care (moving from simply waxing to actually polishing) and have been worried about the long term effects.

Great discussion.
Click to expand...

The oldest I ever had a car with good paint was my first car, which was 22 years old when I got it it. BUT, it was single stage paint; so those are really hard to have clearcoat failure on! Hehe.

It was really 'faded', which I now know to mean it was oxidized. Too bad I didn't know it then! Could've really made it shine.
 
freddie46 said:
Richard Griots says that clear coat is about the depth of a post it note
Click to expand...


I've read that somewhere....


FactoryThinPaint.JPG





Wrote a different way of thinking about it recently here,

Holograms & scratches put into your car by someone else should be a crime


Factory clearcoat paints are thin. Typically thinner than a 3M Post-it Note.


Clearcoat_Paints_Are_Thin_01.jpg


Clearcoat_Paints_Are_Thin_02.jpg
 
Haha yeah... think I read that 'thinner than a post-it note' thing in some book somewhere ;)
 
goodinblack said:
Thinner than a post it note?????

:mad:
Click to expand...


Typically. (see where I used this word above)


The clear portion of a factory basecoat/clearcoat paint job is approximately 2 mils. I explain why in my thread about beginning clearcoat failure. It's in my article list you can Google those three words and add my name, Mike Phillips and it will pull right up.


Just to note, a 3M post-it note ranges around 3 mils. No pun intended. :D


The entire reason I included how thin the factory clear layer of paint is in the first part of my how-to book was simple for education purposes. I figured once the average person understands how thin the working layer of paint is, that is the layer you can work on, they will then understand how important it is to,

A: Get a little head knowledge before jumping in head first to buff out their car. (that's what my book if for, head knowledge)

B: Get a little head knowledge before hiring any detailer to work on their car or doing normal things like taking their car to the dealership for service, (they'll wash it and scratch it), a body shop for repair, (they leave buffer trails or holograms in the paint, these are circular scratches), or taking it to any type of car wash besides a touchless, even the high school charity car washes. (car washes put scratches into paint).


It all starts with education, education yourself so you know a little bit about what I call the 3 P's.

  1. Paint
  2. Products
  3. Procedures

Paint is thin...

Arm yourself with knowledge.


:)
 
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