Having trouble polishing out swirl marks - Griots Garage 3 Inch Orbital Polisher + Menzerna Heavy Cut Compound 1000

Updates for the evening: I borrowed the three-step 3M product (his is the 3000 version, not the new EX or whatever).

Step 1 with the GG was OK, maybe a bit better.
Step 1 using my cheapo Bosch cordless drill removed the swirls left by the above, but also the swirls left elsewhere by the Menzerna.

Step 2 with the Drill looks basically done.
Haven't tried Step 2 with the GG, because the GG has not ever produced reasonable results with any compound or polish.



I assume Step 3 will go well, haven't even tried it. Honestly, the surfaces I've tested look done, but I'm sure I'll do Step 3 once everything is evened out up to this point.


So first off, big thanks to everyone for the advice and encouragement. I think I'll stick to this program for this set of instruments. Happy to post further updates on it all (but I need to re-spray one of them, so it'll be a week or two).

Second, I'm not actually sure what to think about the GG 3" tool. Everything it does poorly is done better by my cheap drill with a 3" pad. I'll call to see if I can return it, but it's used and I'm not even sure I have all the packaging and stuff. ah well, live and learn I guess, on that.

Thanks again!



EDIT: I tried to include an image of the "good" result above, but I've hit my 5 image upload limit, I guess? I'll see if I can find a work-around, but here it is on Imgur if you want to see:
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet
 
Setec Astronomy said:
A two-step would work, but not the two steps you are using. You are using Menz polishes from the dark ages, if I'm not mistaken that FF3000 used to be known as FPI, which no one liked and was supplanted by FPII, which they don't make anymore. Back then you would use Power Gloss (HC1000), followed by Intensive Polish (PO91E), followed by FP1 (FF3000).

Today you would compound with FG400 and follow with SF3500 to get the same results. These polishes are more expensive than the ones you are using (for a reason). Take a look here: Menzerna, Menzerna Polishing Compounds Products, Menzerna FMJ, menzerna polishes, menzerna car polish, menzerna nano polish, menzerna final polish,
Click to expand...



Thanks again for this input - hard to find a better place to read up than some of the posts in this very thread!

Do you have any thoughts on the 3M Perfect-it EX 3-step products?
 
cobalt60 said:
EDIT: I tried to include an image of the "good" result above, but I've hit my 5 image upload limit, I guess?
Click to expand...

I'm not aware of there being any upload limit.

cobalt60 said:
Do you have any thoughts on the 3M Perfect-it EX 3-step products?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I don't. 3M has changed their compound/polish line many times and I can't keep up. They don't get much buzz around here.

So are you refinishing these instruments? Making them?
 
Setec Astronomy said:
So are you refinishing these instruments? Making them?
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Making, from scratch. They're classical guitars (aka nylon-string) which I coat with a wash coat of shellac before spraying with clear coat. I've used Nason and TrueClear (some local Eugene, OR blend) products so far. I want the finish as thin as possible, but still be nearly perfect, since the other popular options are French Polish (very labor intensive, then delicate for the life of the instrument) and Poly / Laquer type coats (much thicker, goopier look, sound-deadening).


Is there a 'forum favorite' product for what I trying to do - take the clear coat from 1500 sanding marks all the way to perfect, swirl-free clarity? I'm willing to test anything :)


As for images, my "manage attachments" window errors when I upload more image, and says:
Files 1 to 5 of 5


​
 
cobalt60 said:
Making, from scratch. They're classical guitars (aka nylon-string) which I coat with a wash coat of shellac before spraying with clear coat. I've used Nason and TrueClear (some local Eugene, OR blend) products so far. I want the finish as thin as possible, but still be nearly perfect, since the other popular options are French Polish (very labor intensive, then delicate for the life of the instrument) and Poly / Laquer type coats (much thicker, goopier look, sound-deadening).


Is there a 'forum favorite' product for what I trying to do - take the clear coat from 1500 sanding marks all the way to perfect, swirl-free clarity? If you want less polishing, I would take it up to 3000 and then to 5000 grit. I'm willing to test anything :)


As for images, my "manage attachments" window errors when I upload more image, and says:
Files 1 to 5 of 5


​
Click to expand...
:props:
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Holy cow, I'd send you a PM if my mailbox wasn't full---when are they going to give us more space?
Click to expand...

Fire away here, if you'd like, I'm keeping an eye on this thread while I keep working on these few I need to wrap up.

Rsurfer said:
:props:
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To clarify: you mean sand from 1500 to 3000 to 5000, then just final polish from there? Would you use a tool for the higher grit sanding, or just do it all by hand, with blocks?




For now, I ordered the 3-step 3M Perfect-It EX products.

No idea what I'll do with this Griot Garage 3" thing - doesn't seem to actually do anything well at all, so far. Happy that I seem to have a workable plan here, though.
 
cobalt60 said:
Fire away here, if you'd like, I'm keeping an eye on this thread while I keep working on these few I need to wrap up.



To clarify: you mean sand from 1500 to 3000 to 5000, then just final polish from there? Would you use a tool for the higher grit sanding, or just do it all by hand, with blocks?




For now, I ordered the 3-step 3M Perfect-It EX products.

No idea what I'll do with this Griot Garage 3" thing - doesn't seem to actually do anything well at all, so far. Happy that I seem to have a workable plan here, though.
Click to expand...

Yes, he was stating to use 1500, (i would maybe add 2000), 3000, then 5000.


For the above I would use the griots 3in. This machine would work perfect for this.


Finishing with 5000 would make it to where you would only need a polish afterwards. In which the griots 3in will perfectly.



In all honesty, I have the griots 3in. I use it mainly for spreading wax.

BUT, on speed 6 IMHO it works pretty good for how small the machine/motor is on removing defects.


Maybe order some microfiber pads for the compounding step.
 
cobalt60 said:
Fire away here, if you'd like, I'm keeping an eye on this thread while I keep working on these few I need to wrap up.



To clarify: you mean sand from 1500 to 3000 to 5000, then just final polish from there?Yes, the higher the grit the less polishing. Would you use a tool for the higher grit sanding, or just do it all by hand, with blocks? The area being so small, I would just block it by hand.




For now, I ordered the 3-step 3M Perfect-It EX products.

No idea what I'll do with this Griot Garage 3" thing - doesn't seem to actually do anything well at all, so far. Happy that I seem to have a workable plan here, though.
Click to expand...
:props:
 
Rsurfer said:
:props:
Click to expand...

But it sounds so bad when you say it like that...I've deleted plenty of PM's in my day...but now I'm full with ones I don't want to delete. And I'm sure I'll be able to use up all my detailing supplies, given a 100 years or so....
 
setec astronomy said:
but it sounds so bad when you say it like that...i've deleted plenty of pm's in my day...but now i'm full with ones i don't want to delete. copy and paste and i'm sure i'll be able to use up all my detailing supplies, given a 100 years or so....
Click to expand...
lol
 
Updates for anyone who cares. I ran more tests and the final results, for me at least are:

Manzerna HCC applied with Bosch drill and 3" foam pad: Works, but very easy to burn-through the clear coat. I'd post a pic if I wasn't at limit, but I had a couple incidents of the finish bubbling up, and one where it completely blistered and delaminated from the wood. Once I got the hang of the limit, this was fine.

Manzerna HCC applied with Griot 3": Never any concern of burn-through, but absolutely no chance of removing swirls with this compound either. I tried hard pressure, light pressure, in-between, over short and long times. This tool will apparently never make this compound work as intended.



Manzerna FF 3000, drill or GG 3" Hard to say here. If the HCC 1000 went well, the polish made it look a bit better, using either tool. If there were swirls, this step would not remove them using either tool.



3M Perfect-it stage 1 applied with Bosch Drill and 3" foam pad: Actually a bit easier and more consistent than the Manzerna. Results were predictably swirl-free if I gave enough time to each area, and I never had any burn-through, so I like this option best so far.

3M Perfect-it stage 1 applied with Griot's Garage 3" and foam pad This process leaves swirls, fairly similar to the Manzerna but perhaps a bit better. I only tried twice but I assume I'd be banging my head against a wall if I kept trying.



3M Perfect-it stage 2 applied with Bosch Drill and 3" foam pad: Very nice. I did one instrument with the thick foam pads from the GG tool, then got the 'thinline' foam pads and did another instrument with the white pads. Both worked well, the thin pads felt a little more "in control," but results are both great.


3M Perfect-it stage 2 applied with Griot's Garage 3" and foam pad Of everything, this was the most unexpected. If the first pass of 3M left no swirls, this combo would somehow make new swirls. They are very fine, only visible in the brightest LED, but they were there. To me, this is the death knell of the Griot's Garage 3" orbital polisher. I was hoping it could AT LEAST excel in this step, but it's somehow WORSE than not doing anything at all.



So, once again, thank you to everyone who helped me get this process working for me. The results look really solid across multiple instruments, and I feel comfortable that I could reproduce the results next time around (though I'm sure I'll experiments with something along the way). Seriously, BIG thanks to all of you - I was pretty frustrated at the start of this thread and now just realized the GG was hurting more than helping.
 
cobalt60 said:
Updates for anyone who cares. I ran more tests and the final results, for me at least are:

Manzerna HCC applied with Bosch drill and 3" foam pad: Works, but very easy to burn-through the clear coat. I'd post a pic if I wasn't at limit, but I had a couple incidents of the finish bubbling up, and one where it completely blistered and delaminated from the wood. Once I got the hang of the limit, this was fine.

Manzerna HCC applied with Griot 3": Never any concern of burn-through, but absolutely no chance of removing swirls with this compound either. I tried hard pressure, light pressure, in-between, over short and long times. This tool will apparently never make this compound work as intended.



Manzerna FF 3000, drill or GG 3" Hard to say here. If the HCC 1000 went well, the polish made it look a bit better, using either tool. If there were swirls, this step would not remove them using either tool.



3M Perfect-it stage 1 applied with Bosch Drill and 3" foam pad: Actually a bit easier and more consistent than the Manzerna. Results were predictably swirl-free if I gave enough time to each area, and I never had any burn-through, so I like this option best so far.

3M Perfect-it stage 1 applied with Griot's Garage 3" and foam pad This process leaves swirls, fairly similar to the Manzerna but perhaps a bit better. I only tried twice but I assume I'd be banging my head against a wall if I kept trying.



3M Perfect-it stage 2 applied with Bosch Drill and 3" foam pad: Very nice. I did one instrument with the thick foam pads from the GG tool, then got the 'thinline' foam pads and did another instrument with the white pads. Both worked well, the thin pads felt a little more "in control," but results are both great.


3M Perfect-it stage 2 applied with Griot's Garage 3" and foam pad Of everything, this was the most unexpected. If the first pass of 3M left no swirls, this combo would somehow make new swirls. They are very fine, only visible in the brightest LED, but they were there. To me, this is the death knell of the Griot's Garage 3" orbital polisher. I was hoping it could AT LEAST excel in this step, but it's somehow WORSE than not doing anything at all.



So, once again, thank you to everyone who helped me get this process working for me. The results look really solid across multiple instruments, and I feel comfortable that I could reproduce the results next time around (though I'm sure I'll experiments with something along the way). Seriously, BIG thanks to all of you - I was pretty frustrated at the start of this thread and now just realized the GG was hurting more than helping.
Click to expand...

What pads did you use? I think the sanding step is leaving scratches too deep. Have you tried going up to 3000 grit?
 
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