Help with 2013 Lexus GS350 black, very soft paint

[TiredOfPaintStains]

Hello,

After lurking for years, I'm finally really getting into this paint correction thing. Wow, so much info and I'm extremely interested. Just something else I need right now. ~sarcastically joking~. I'm prepping to really care for a car I'm about to get. I always like learning new things and doing the work myself, so I've decided to learn and practice while I'm waiting. I'm planning to add a paint coating once the car arrives so I started looking into all the things I need and things started escalating from there. I started practicing on our highly neglected 2013 Lexus GS350 with paint code 212, black obsidian. Probably not a wise choice as a novice, but I didn't realize how soft the paint was.

I went into my cabinet and dug out all the stuff I bought years ago collecting dust or leaking from the bottle. :hungry:

Here's what I have:

Except for the noted, all of this stuff is old. At least 7 years old if i remember correctly.

- Meguiars g110v2
- meg #7 glaze
- meg 82
- meg ultimate compound - just purchased
- meg ultimate finish - jus purchased
- meg swirl x - it's now super runny.
- meg 5" backing plate - just purchased
- meg 5" foam disc; red, yellow, and black - jus purchased
- LC 5" flat discs - white, yellow, orange, black, blue
- 3M finesse-it 3000 swirl remover
- 3M finesse-it compound
- 3M Finesse-it II finishing material machine polish

I searched and searched. But nothing's working or I'm messing up on technique? I came across multiple threads on AG and also MOL with other people correcting the same paint or similar soft paint. Ive been working on test panel(s) for weeks+ using what I had and trying different combinations between compounds, polishes, and pads. That's when I realized how soft the paint is. I thought I was imagining things, but surely, I marred the paint when i clayed it using meg clay bar kit.

This is what I'm working with. Don't mean to call out names, but Lexus of Westminster washed my car during my 1st oil change(it was complimentary) and 80% of these swirls came up. I remember seeing it that day and saying something to my wife about it. It was very obvious. I probably contributed to the other 20% with incorrect washing method.

Different Angle:

Here's my working combo to get here at a marred and haze state. DFC5 with 3M 3000 Swirl Remover, 6 passes @ speed 5-6. Followed by DFP5 with 3M Machine Polish, 6 passes @ speed 3, slow arm movement. Anything after that seemed to make it worse or micro marr the surface. Or at least produce what you see below. I've tried DFF5 with UF. I've read Kevin Brown's method as well as even using the DFF5 with just water or M82 diluted with water. Didn't work or see any noticeable results from the few passes I did. I've cleaned out my pads after a few passes..etc. The below is the best I can get as of now. Up close and at certain angles, it's micro-marred and the hazed. Looking at a farther angle, the marred surface looks swirled again. So seems like I'm going in circles. I read on MOL TNOG, that they used a DFC5 with UC, with heavier pressure and a 1-2 pass and it worked. I tried this and didn't see any good results. Maybe my technique is off?

Different angle:

Here are my questions:

- Looking thru a slew of products is quite overwhelming, but i found the aggression chart or the polish comparison chart from Autopia(it seems more updated than AG's version) very useful when selecting products to use in my test panel. Is there much difference between brand's aggressiveness, i.e....do I need Ultimate Polish when I have M82? They both share the same aggressiveness according to the chart. Ideally, I would have at least one product in every level of aggressiveness? Would this generally work regardless of SMAT or DAT?

- As for the test panel, I feel i'm over using it. I've used at least 10 combinations. I use about 6 passes(3 section passes) per combo. I feel I don't have enough experience or product to adequately produce a haze/mar-free recipe. I have 3 small test panels now. I've stopped. lol. Luckily, I found MOL and signed up for their Saturday and Thursday Night Open Garage that's coming up, so we'll see what kind of recommendations I get.

- If my technique is good, is it possible to use what I have or combinations of what I have to paint correct at least 90% of this soft paint with out marring and hazing or finish at LSP state?
- is it time to get new products? From what I've searched, people seem to praise and have good luck with Menzerna finishing products for soft paint. Even the product page advertises the use on soft paint systems. If I purchase, which finishing product should I buy? If we speak in terms of aggressiveness, they all advertise to remove 3000. Is SF 3800 enough? From the comparison chart, M82 = SF 3500. Well, M82 regardless of Meg DFF5 or DFP5 still caused haze and marring currently. The next logical step would be Color X, #09, or Menzerna SF 3800

- Others have mentioned good results w/ Sonax finishing products. If I buy a finishing product, should I stick to just Menzerna. Like the least aggressive practice, I would like to practice the least amount of purchase to get the job done. =p Ideally, I would have over 50 products to choose from and test, but I'm just a weekend warrior, so l have to start little by little. However, Sonax Paint Cleaner is the next step on the chart.

Sorry for the long post. It's the most info I can provide. Thanks a lot in advance.
.

 

[Finick]

I'm not a professional, but I was experiencing crazy micro marring on my 2012 Nissan Altima, with basically everything I have. d151, UP, and m205. I made a thread about it and got some pinnacle ascanced swirl remover sent to me, and I will say that it's honestly amazing, and I'd highly recommend it.

I even ordered their advanced finishing polish later on to follow up with, and I'm meaning to do a good 50/50 to see the difference in finish.

I don't know if my technique was causing the marring, but like you I tried different pad and product combos, speeds, number of passes, nothing worked. I'll include a picture to show how much better advanced swirl remover finished than m205

View attachment 59575

Some tape residue, but ASR on the left m205 on the right

 

[MattPersman]

Would try carpro essence or reflect. Sonax has two (paint cleaner and ex 04-06) you could try or HD polish

Im sure there are other good ones too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Justin at Final Inspection]

Honestly get it corrected to the haze free state then finish polish with HD Speed on a white or black finishing pad.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Hello,

After lurking for years, I'm finally really getting into this paint correction thing. Wow, so much info and I'm extremely interested. Just something else I need right now. ~sarcastically joking~. I'm prepping to really care for a car I'm about to get. I always like learning new things and doing the work myself, so I've decided to learn and practice while I'm waiting. I'm planning to add a paint coating once the car arrives so I started looking into all the things I need and things started escalating from there. I started practicing on our highly neglected 2013 Lexus GS350 with paint code 212, black obsidian. Probably not a wise choice as a novice, but I didn't realize how soft the paint was.

I forget when Lexus stopped using their "Self-Correcting" paint. Cross your fingers and hope to the God of Car Paint that you don't have this on your Lexus.

I went into my cabinet and dug out all the stuff I bought years ago collecting dust or leaking from the bottle. :hungry:

Here's what I have:

Except for the noted, all of this stuff is old. At least 7 years old if i remember correctly.

- Meguiars g110v2
- meg #7 glaze
- meg 82
- meg ultimate compound - just purchased
- meg ultimate finish - jus purchased
- meg swirl x - it's now super runny.
- meg 5" backing plate - just purchased
- meg 5" foam disc; red, yellow, and black - jus purchased
- LC 5" flat discs - white, yellow, orange, black, blue
- 3M finesse-it 3000 swirl remover
- 3M finesse-it compound
- 3M Finesse-it II finishing material machine polish

I searched and searched. But nothing's working or I'm messing up on technique? I came across multiple threads on AG and also MOL with other people correcting the same paint or similar soft paint. Ive been working on test panel(s) for weeks+ using what I had and trying different combinations between compounds, polishes, and pads. That's when I realized how soft the paint is. I thought I was imagining things, but surely, I marred the paint when i clayed it using meg clay bar kit.

The #7 is useless for working on the paint of this car.

The M82 is outdated and will micro-mar.

The UC and UF are great products but if your car's paint is soft the UC will leave micro-marring but this would be normal for soft paint.

If shaking hard won't return the SwirlX back to a lotion like consistency then throw it away.

To my recollection, the directions on the back of the bottles for ALL 3M products state to use them at such and such RPM and this implies using them with rotary buffers. My guess is the Finesse-It 3000 and the Compound will leave micro-marring when used with an orbital but the Finnesse-It Finishing Material should be okay. (Test first to small area).


The polisher, the pads and the backing plates are all good.


Car Detailing History

Check out this article,

Meguiar's Ultimate Compound History

You'll see pictures of Meguiar's Ultimate Compound and SwirlX and also Meguiar's garage in Irvine. Those are all my pictures and my projects.

This is what I'm working with. Don't mean to call out names, but Lexus of Westminster washed my car during my 1st oil change(it was complimentary) and 80% of these swirls came up. I remember seeing it that day and saying something to my wife about it. It was very obvious. I probably contributed to the other 20% with incorrect washing method.

Different Angle:

For you and everyone that will read this article into the future, see this article,

DON'T WASH CAR! by Mike Phillips

Subtitle: How to prevent your car dealership from putting swirls and scratches into your car's paint!

Here's my working combo to get here at a marred and haze state. DFC5 with 3M 3000 Swirl Remover, 6 passes @ speed 5-6. Followed by DFP5 with 3M Machine Polish, 6 passes @ speed 3, slow arm movement. Anything after that seemed to make it worse or micro mar the surface.

Or at least produce what you see below. I've tried DFF5 with UF. I've read Kevin Brown's method as well as even using the DFF5 with just water or M82 diluted with water.

Didn't work or see any noticeable results from the few passes I did.

I've seen people work so hard at making SMAT products work on soft paint and instead of working and working and working, simply change to different abrasive technology and get-r-done...

I've cleaned out my pads after a few passes..etc. The below is the best I can get as of now. Up close and at certain angles, it's micro-marred and the hazed. Looking at a farther angle, the marred surface looks swirled again. So seems like I'm going in circles. I read on MOL TNOG, that they used a DFC5 with UC, with heavier pressure and a 1-2 pass and it worked. I tried this and didn't see any good results. Maybe my technique is off?

Different angle:

Have you read anywhere that FIBERS are a FORM OF ABRASIVES?



If not, you can read it here,

Here's what you need to get into machine polishing - Recommendations for a beginner by Mike Phillips


The below is just a small portion of the entire article...

Foam pads versus microfiber pads

Below is a list of 5.5" foam pads and 5.5" microfiber pads. Here's the primary difference if you're new to machine polishing and don't know which style of pad to go with.

You can quote me on this statement,

When comparing foam pads to microfiber pads, foam pads will finish out nicer and more consistently on a wider spectrum of paint systems - Mike Phillips


What this means is, cars have paint on them. The paint comes from a paint manufacturer. There are about a dozen paint manufacturers that provide paint to car manufacturers and the re-finishing industry. (re-finishing industry is the local body shop or dealership that fixes the dents in your car and sprays fresh paint on the repaired area so it matches the rest of the car.

Paint systems are not only different in their hardness and softness, or what I like to call polishability, but paints are ALWAYS changing. So there's no simple way to know if the paint you're buffing on is hard or soft without testing and experience, (I cover this in my how to book on page 7)

So when I say, that foam pads will finish out nicer and more consistently on a wide spectrum of paint systems that means

A: For the finishing step, not the compounding step. (look at what I wrote)

B: I used the words wide spectrum because thousands of people will read this and then be buffing on a car somewhere and it will have a "paint system" on it and none of us except the person buffing on this car will know if the paint is hard, soft or somewhere in-between.


Fibers are a form of abrasive
Just like the headline reads, fibers are form of abrasive. A gentle abrasive in most cases but an abrasive all the same. If you put a wool cutting pad on a rotary buffer and then buff on some black paint with some baby oil, after you strip the paint of the baby oil and look at the paint there will be hologram swirl scratches in the paint. They will not have come from the baby oil or the tool, so what put the scratches into the paint? Answer. The fibers that make up the wool pad.

You can extrapolate this out to microfiber pads for orbital polishers. While for some paints, (harder paints), you can both compound and finish out with a fiber/microfiber pad, for other paints, (softer paints), you can compound with a microfiber pad and remove defects but the fibers that make up the pad can and will leave a scratch pattern called micro-marring. That's okay if you do a follow-up step after compounding and re-polish the paint but if you're seeing micro-marring from a microfiber pad then you'll have a high chance of finishing out without micro-marring if you switch over to a foam pad.

And the above explanation is what I mean when I say,


"When comparing foam pads to microfiber pads, foam pads will finish out nicer and more consistently on a sider spectrum of paint systems"


Of course, you never know what you can do until you try.... and then inspect the results. And when inspecting, to measure the true and accurate results you'll need to chemically strip the paint and inspect with a quality swirl finder light or bright overhead sunlight.



Car Detailing History 101

To help understand the history of microfiber pads and when and why they were introduced into the car detailing world, I like to use the Meguiar's Microfiber DA Correction System as an analogy.


Meguiar's introduced this system to change the production detailing industry by getting rid of the universally abused rotary buffer. The production detailing industry uses the rotary buffer for SPEED, not quality. The problem with the rotary buffer is that all to often it leaves the paint filled with holograms.

Holograms = a circular scratch pattern IN the paint caused by the single rotating action of the buffing pad on a rotary buffer.

Holograms mimic the pattern a rotary buffer is moved over the paint. Holograms is a SPECFIC type of scratch pattern only inflicted into paint by rotary buffers, not orbital polishers. Orbital polishers can instill micro-marring and a visible pattern of how an orbital buffer was moved over the paint can be seen on darker colors but this pattern is NOT called holograms. You can call it buffer trails, or buffer haze or buffer shadows, or buffer patterns but it is NOT called holograms.

The idea was to replace the rotary buffer with a free spinning orbital polisher from Meguiar's called the G100 which was a copy of the Porter Cable 7424 orbital polisher, and then later the MT300, which offers the same 8mm orbit stroke length has the G100 (or the Porter Cable), but has a longer body than the G100. (same 8mm free spinning orbital polishing action)

To make up for the loss of direct drive power and speed offered by the rotary buffer, Meguiar's incorporated a microfiber pad or a FIBER pad to assist in faster defect removal. Or you could say this as faster PAINT REMOVAL as removing defects is actually removing paint to level the surface, that is level the surface with the lowest depths of the defects you're trying to remove to create a visually flat and also visually perfect finish. The fibers act as a form of abrasives and aid the actual abrasives in compounds and polishes.


The downside of increasing the aggressiveness or cutting ability of an orbital polisher by introducing a microfiber pad is the risk of introducing micro-marring when the fibers instill their own scratch pattern into some paints, typically softer paints. This tradeoff is considered a net gain as compared to having the detailing industry inflict every car buffed out with a rotary buffer with hologram scratches.


The above is an attempt to explain not only why there are microfiber pads on the market but where they fit into the car detailing or car buffing processes.


Foam pads reduce the risk of micro-marring because they offer a uniform texture of the entire face of the pad, not individual fibers, or loops of fibers in the case of some brands of microfiber pads.

You won't know if a microfiber pad will induce micro-marring into the paint of any car you are going to buff out until you do a Test Spot. One option for detailers that want increased cutting from any free spinning orbital polishers is to START with microfiber pads for the compounding or cutting step but finish with foam pad.


Besides pads, abrasive technology is a HUGE factor as to whether you will see micro-marring or not no matter what type of pad you use. This is why I believe the most important factor when buffing out a car is the abrasive technology, not a person's technique, not the tool or the pad. It all starts with the substance TOUCHING the paint and in the car detailing world this would include,

1. Compounds
2. Polishes
3. Cleaner/waxes --> most cleaner/waxes, or cleaner/sealants contain some form of abrasive technology like compounds and polishes and this is why I include them in this group of substances that touch the paint.

Here are my questions:

Let me take a stab at them in the next reply...

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Continued....

Here are my questions:

- Looking thru a slew of products is quite overwhelming, but i found the aggression chart or the polish comparison chart from Autopia(it seems more updated than AG's version) very useful when selecting products to use in my test panel.

Is there much difference between brand's aggressiveness, i.e....do I need Ultimate Polish when I have M82? They both share the same aggressiveness according to the chart.

Ideally, I would have at least one product in every level of aggressiveness? Would this generally work regardless of SMAT or DAT?

Good questions. Those charts are good for "general reference" and that's about it. Asking a question on this forum is more powerful.

The M82, unless they've reformulated it, will tend to micro-mar when used with an orbital polisher. Might have to chemically strip the paint to see it but that's my experience and I probably used it and taught how to use it more than anyone still breathing today. Back when I used it and taught the Meguiar's TNOGs and Saturday detailing classes it was one of the few and one of the best polishes on the market but a LOT has changed in the last 11+ years.

I think I started the first TNOG on a Wednesday in 2006. I started the first Saturday class on July 31st, 2002.

It's good to see these classes continue to today...

- As for the test panel, I feel i'm over using it. I've used at least 10 combinations. I use about 6 passes(3 section passes) per combo. I feel I don't have enough experience or product to adequately produce a haze/mar-free recipe. I have 3 small test panels now. I've stopped. lol. Luckily, I found MOL and signed up for their Saturday and Thursday Night Open Garage that's coming up, so we'll see what kind of recommendations I get.

Please share what you find out. Jeff Wynn, Mike Stoops and Mike Pennington are very good at diagnosing paint issues, I'm sure whoever is running the TNOG can help you.

- If my technique is good, is it possible to use what I have or combinations of what I have to paint correct at least 90% of this soft paint with out marring and hazing or finish at LSP state?

- is it time to get new products?

Menzerna abrasive technology works great on all paint system, hard or soft. I recently tested some new abrasive technology that works as good and even better but it's not available yet.

- Others have mentioned good results w/ Sonax finishing products. If I buy a finishing product, should I stick to just Menzerna.

SONAX also makes great abrasive technology. I would put SONAX and Menzerna on the same level or same top shelf as quality goes.

Like the least aggressive practice, I would like to practice the least amount of purchase to get the job done. =p Ideally, I would have over 50 products to choose from and test, but I'm just a weekend warrior, so l have to start little by little. However, Sonax Paint Cleaner is the next step on the chart.

And the SONAX Paint Cleaner is actually a one-step cleaner/wax and it would probably finish out on this paint without micro-marring. If you're going to use a coating however, then you'll have to strip off the SONAX PAINT Cleaner to remove the "protection" ingredients.

You also have to strip off any polishing oils or other ingredients after machine polishing before using a ceramic coating. Keep that in mind.

If this car is a daily driver, parked outside, maybe consider finding and falling in love with a simple cleaner/wax and use it a few times a year to maintain the paint.

 

[RaskyR1]

I just finished one up the other day and it was pretty soft. I'm sure there are tons of good combos but I cut with Griot's Fast Correct Cream using BOSS MF pads on the Rupes 21 and G15. Finished using Optimum Hyper Polish on yellow BOSS foam pads.

50/50
https://youtu.be/lgCuurUMnqo


Finished walk around
https://youtu.be/aSoOOq27KZs




FYI, The one I did had a tinted clear too....

 

[TiredOfPaintStains]

Thanks everyone for their replies and thanks Mike for your detailed reply to every question I had. I feel star struck getting a reply from Mike, the guru with celebrity status. icture: I should've joined earlier, but most information is very easy to find and a simple search on google provides tons of articles from Mike over the years, so it's been quite a learning experience to say the least. After extensive reading for weeks, putting it into practice is harder than i thought, especially w/ soft paint.

Have you read anywhere that FIBERS are a FORM OF ABRASIVES?

Yes, I read your articles and about the Meg DAMF system, and that's the next step or set of products I'm going to purchase. At this time, I thought or felt I have what I need as far as pads go. Although, now I need to invest in finishing products. I forgot to mention I did buy some D300 compound, so now i just need the DMC5, DMF5, D302 to finish the med cut kit. My other cars aren't that bad. Speaking of that I tried DFP5 pad w/ UC last night on the trunk of our white '07 TSX last night. After 6 section passes, here are the results on test area. Took out about 90%. I may bump up to a DFC5 w/ UC and 3 section passes to see if I can get 100%. This is pretty fun! Just the initial passes tells me the paint is much easer to work w/. I now feel more confident. :xyxthumbs:

Before: I'll try to take better pictures, but it's hard to get it to reflect just right.

After:

I can do a 50/50 on the white next time, but i really hate the residue the tape leaves. On soft paint, it's a nightmare getting off and you're once again, marring the paint trying to get the residue off.

Please share what you find out. Jeff Wynn, Mike Stoops and Mike Pennington are very good at diagnosing paint issues, I'm sure whoever is running the TNOG can help you.

I will definitely do this.

And the SONAX Paint Cleaner is actually a one-step cleaner/wax and it would probably finish out on this paint without micro-marring. If you're going to use a coating however, then you'll have to strip off the SONAX PAINT Cleaner to remove the "protection" ingredients.

You also have to strip off any polishing oils or other ingredients after machine polishing before using a ceramic coating. Keep that in mind.

If this car is a daily driver, parked outside, maybe consider finding and falling in love with a simple cleaner/wax and use it a few times a year to maintain the paint.

Thanks. Yes, this is a daily driver. I'll definitely considering this. The only reason I'm shooting for close to 100% paint correction is to practice and test out McKee's paint coat or just a paint coat. We'll see what techniques or combinations I learn at this week's training. Or I may just do a 1-step cleaner/wax and let it be.

To my recollection, the directions on the back of the bottles for ALL 3M products state to use them at such and such RPM and this implies using them with rotary buffers. My guess is the Finesse-It 3000 and the Compound will leave micro-marring when used with an orbital but the Finnesse-It Finishing Material should be okay. (Test first to small area).

It definitely left micro-marring. I also have an old craftsman polisher that goes up to about 1400 rpm. I was thinking of trying that, but went against it and decide to be patient and just wait for the Meguiars class first..:buffing:

 

[TiredOfPaintStains]

I just finished one up the other day and it was pretty soft. I'm sure there are tons of good combos but I cut with Griot's Fast Correct Cream using BOSS MF pads on the Rupes 21 and G15. Finished using Optimum Hyper Polish on yellow BOSS foam pads.

50/50
https://youtu.be/lgCuurUMnqo


Finished walk around
https://youtu.be/aSoOOq27KZs



FYI, The one I did had a tinted clear too....

Looks fantastic! Thanks for sharing! 25$/bottle, not too bad. I'll still wait for the Meg before i go on AG shopping spree.

 

[TiredOfPaintStains]

As promised, here's the process we used at @ Meguiar's TNOG. It's a GS350, not IS.

Pictures from Meguiar's August 24th, 2017 Thursday Night Open Garage Classes

It was really a fun experience and I'll go back again at some point. Everyone there was very helpful.

Prior to TNOG, I did quite a bit of research as well as asking you Autogeeks for input. :xyxthumbs: So thanks for that again! I stumbled upon a couple threads per below that mentioned the same process, using M205 with polishing and finishing pads. So the process is consistent.

Trouble on Lexus paint correction

Black Lexus Paint Question?

For experimenting; for the sake of perfection or just to see how good I can get this paint to finish, I went out and bought Menzerna Super Finish 3800, Sonax Perfect Finish, and Optimum Hyper Polish. I did a few passes w/ Sonax PF, using black 5" Meg foam disc, and wow!! I'm impressed. For my paint and the test area I did, i see considerable less marring than the M205. I'll report back after more testing. I'll post pictures.

 

[WRAPT C5Z06]

I just finished one up the other day and it was pretty soft. I'm sure there are tons of good combos but I cut with Griot's Fast Correct Cream using BOSS MF pads on the Rupes 21 and G15. Finished using Optimum Hyper Polish on yellow BOSS foam pads.

50/50
https://youtu.be/lgCuurUMnqo


Finished walk around
https://youtu.be/aSoOOq27KZs




FYI, The one I did had a tinted clear too....

Nice job, Chad. Those yellow BOSS pads sure finish nicely on soft paint. How did you use Hyper Polish? 1 spritz per section? Did you spray the pad with ONR?