How many times can you buff?

sportscarhiatus

sportscarhiatus

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Ok folks, I've been having discussions here at work with some of my friends who detail a lot as well. The discussion centers around this theme:

Given a brand new vehicle, if using a DA (say a PC), and let's say M205/M105-LC white pad, LC gray pad to remove swirls, how many times could a person perform that task before they wear through the clear coat?

Obviously, when you're buffing, you're removing paint. I know the answer to the question above depends on the kind of paint, how thick is it, etc etc... but just assume an average... Just want to know your estimates. How much can a new vehicle's paint withstand? 10 sessions? 5 sessions? 50 sessions?
 
Wondering about that myself, noob here.
 
This is why you use the least aggressive method first. Lots of people want to go right to M105 which is a compound. Give 205 by itself a try, or even menzerna power finish. With proper wash technique you should not need to polish all the time. For my twice a year polish I use 85RD, and maybe bump it up to 106FA. Last time I used dodo lime prime because the paint was fine.
 
loudog2 said:
This is why you use the least aggressive method first. Lots of people want to go right to M105 which is a compound. Give 205 by itself a try, or even menzerna power finish. With proper wash technique you should not need to polish all the time. For my twice a year polish I use 85RD, and maybe bump it up to 106FA. Last time I used dodo lime prime because the paint was fine.
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Really interesting post, thanks.:props:

The purpose to use something like Menzerna PO203S and after Menz Final Polish PO85RD.
PO85RD is used to clean the paint after a more intensive polish so the paint will be perfect for a sealant and wax ... am I right ?
 
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loudog2 said:
This is why you use the least aggressive method first. Lots of people want to go right to M105 which is a compound. Give 205 by itself a try, or even menzerna power finish. With proper wash technique you should not need to polish all the time. For my twice a year polish I use 85RD, and maybe bump it up to 106FA. Last time I used dodo lime prime because the paint was fine.
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Great advice. I normally only need to go around my black car with po87mc and a blue pad twice a year to keep it swirl free. I am always happy to make multiple passes if time allows since I am a big fan of try to remove as little as possible to achieve the level of correction I am looking for.
 
TheGLL said:
Really interesting post, thanks.:props:

The purpose to use something like Menzerna PO203S and after Menz Final Polish PO85RD.
PO85RD is used to clean the paint after a more intensive polish so the paint will be perfect for a sealant and wax ... am I right ?
Click to expand...

PO85rd has much finer abrasives which allows you to remove any marring that previous steps have left behind. It also jewels the paint but this is done via mechanical abrasives so it doesn't 'clean' the paint in the strict sense of the word; it focuses if you will.
 
folks, I appreciate the replies, but they still don't answer my question. Please don't threadjack and change the subject of this thread.

Yes, I understand that you must use the least aggressive method first and see if that takes care of the swirls. If it doesn't then move to next aggressive. Fine, I understand all that... but still, my question still stands.

How many buffing sessions can a standard vehicle' clear coat withstand? For sake of the discussion, assume Porter Cable, M205/105, LC white/gray pads.

Come on folks, all you experts out there. Someone HAS to know. Someone out there must have made the mistake of "buffing through the clear coat". For those of us without a clear coat thickness measuring device, we would like to know before we buff "too much".
 
TheGLL said:
Really interesting post, thanks.:props:

The purpose to use something like Menzerna PO203S and after Menz Final Polish PO85RD.
PO85RD is used to clean the paint after a more intensive polish so the paint will be perfect for a sealant and wax ... am I right ?
Click to expand...
I have used power finish 203 by itself w/a soft green LC pad as a one-step. It's almost the same as wolfgang TSR 3.0. With a more aggressive pad, yes, you would follow up with a finishing polish like 106FA or 85RD. 85RD does have cut and can remove light imperfections on paint by itself, 106FA has more cut. Always try to save your clear coat. 106FA with s soft green LC pad can remove swirls too, but minor ones only.

85RD is also used to jewel paint. Lets say you use SIP with a white pad, then 106FA on a grey pad. You can then use 85RD with a blue pad to jewlel(shine it up even more) the paint as your 3rd step.
 
sportscarhiatus said:
folks, I appreciate the replies, but they still don't answer my question. Please don't threadjack and change the subject of this thread.

Yes, I understand that you must use the least aggressive method first and see if that takes care of the swirls. If it doesn't then move to next aggressive. Fine, I understand all that... but still, my question still stands.

How many buffing sessions can a standard vehicle' clear coat withstand? For sake of the discussion, assume Porter Cable, M205/105, LC white/gray pads.

Come on folks, all you experts out there. Someone HAS to know. Someone out there must have made the mistake of "buffing through the clear coat". For those of us without a clear coat thickness measuring device, we would like to know before we buff "too much".
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You can't get a definite answer ot the question. That's why professionals still use a paint depth guage. What type of car, what polish/compound has been used, with what pads, has it had body work, how old is it and etc. I could go on.
 
Thanks to christian900se and loudog2.

Sorry sportscarhiatus for the threadjack... I'm out.
 
There is no exact way to know how many times you can buff. Every single car is different, since the paint thickness is never the same. Its not even the same on one car; every panel is slightly different. So if you really want to know, buy a paint thickness gauge and work out how many microns of clear you remove during a buffing session. Divide that by the total thickness of the clear and there you have it.
 
loudog2 said:
What type of car, what polish/compound has been used, with what pads, has it had body work, how old is it and etc. I could go on.
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Hence my requests for an "estimate". For all of you experts/professionals out there, I trust that your experience alone can probably give us noobs somewhat of a smart estimate. What's the ball park #? Think bell curve. Think averages...Think standards. How many times? 10 times? 20? 100?

loudog2 said:
That's why professionals still use a paint depth guage.
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I can almost assure you, 80-90% of the people on this forum are NOT professionals, and hence my question and my statement that most of us won't have or use a paint depth gauge. Most of us just enjoy buffing and polishing our cars using a PC or Flex in our garage. We just want to know how long we can safely do it.
 
And loudog is telling you that you cannot tell without definitive measurements of paint thickness. EVERY single car is different, even if you put another black G35 right up against yours with no other factors differing the two cars; it will be similar, but not the same. Thats what he is trying to tell you, it is impossible to know even roughly.

The only advice I can offer in terms of paint removal with your process is that you will probably be removing between 2-4 microns of paint. Assuming your paint is average in terms of hardness. It may be more if the paint is softer than average or it may be less if it is harder. Thats all I can say without repeating what lou has already said.
 
Here I will give you an answer, 100 times before you go through the clear. Now go and buff your car and let me know if I am right then we can pass the info on to others.

There are way to many variables to answer your question. You have the tool itself, da or rotary. Someones technique-pressure, speed of moving the pad along the paint, how many uses of different polishes. There will be no set answer or any type of answer. Just like Loudog said if you want an answer to your question you need to a ptg and monitor it. It is just like asking the owl how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop.
 
ASPHALT ROCKET said:
Here I will give you an answer, 100 times before you go through the clear. Now go and buff your car and let me know if I am right then we can pass the info on to others.

There are way to many variables to answer your question. You have the tool itself, da or rotary. Someones technique-pressure, speed of moving the pad along the paint, how many uses of different polishes. There will be no set answer or any type of answer. Just like Loudog said if you want an answer to your question you need to a ptg and monitor it. It is just like asking the owl how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop.
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Hey Dana,

Can you tell me how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop???
 
christian900se said:
The only advice I can offer in terms of paint removal with your process is that you will probably be removing between 2-4 microns of paint.
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Thank you. That's all I wanted to hear. I appreciate you actually trying to help members of this forum rather than others who make sarcastic answers.

So how many total microns of paint does an average vehicle have?
 
sportscarhiatus said:
Thank you. That's all I wanted to hear. I appreciate you actually trying to help members of this forum rather than others who make sarcastic answers.

So how many total microns of paint does an average vehicle have?
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Well, that is more specific to the exact model car you have, and even more specific each color will be different in terms of thickness. Paint thickness is very unique to the color and car model you have, but I looked around and found that black G35 paint has been found to have between 80 microns at low points to 120+ microns for the high points.

Now the low points are at different points on the vehicle, and this is only dealing with original paint. I would expect to see an average of around 100 to 110 microns on a black Nissan from what I have seen. Remember that the first time around with polishing, you have much more significant defects to remove compared to any subsequent polishings where you will not need as aggressive a pad/polish combination. Normally, going around a car to maintain a swirl free finish with a finishing polish will remove a minimal amount of paint, the trick is maintaining the car properly to keep those swirls at bay.
 
Sports, you ask a loaded question and you got loaded answers. Lou, Dana and Christian gave you the best answers possible. Short of getting a PTG you won't really know. Just use good washing techniques and use the least aggressive correction and you'll get 10+ years of enjoyment.
 
loudog2 said:
You can't get a definite answer ot the question. That's why professionals still use a paint depth guage. What type of car, what polish/compound has been used, with what pads, has it had body work, how old is it and etc. I could go on.
Click to expand...
He said a NEW vehicle, not one with bodywork or previous polishing or any previous work done to it. I think it's a reasonable question.
 
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