How to determine paint "hardness"?

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Sonic Pilot

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Car manufacturers sometimes have a reputation for "hard" or "soft" paint finishes and that is fine for those who memorize which is which.
That aside, what is the current detail industry practice for determining paint "hardness"? I'm not talking about weather or not the paint is fully cured. Lets assume the paint is fully cured. As a detailer assessing a cars finish, how do you determine "hard" paint from "soft" paint? Also, what is the unit of measure used when determining paint hardness? For example, a common unit of measure for determining weight is pounds.
 
The typical way of finding if paint is hard or soft is trying to remove defects from it. Soft paints are easy to remove damage from. Some paints are so hard it's almost impossible to remove scratches and swirls unless you go with a super agressive combo of machine, pad and compound.

Also, soft paint damages very easilly, so you are much more likelly to put swirls in it during the wash. Hard paints on the other hand are harder to damage, and are more resistant to day to day things that might damage softer paints. This is why ceramic coatings boasts being able to protect from scratching, the harder finish of the coating is more resistant than most paints.
 
European cars are known for hard paint and most Asian cars are known for soft paint,
but not always. Never start polishing without doing a test spot to see what polish and pad combo will work best.
 
Sonic Pilot said:
Car manufacturers sometimes have a
reputation for "hard" or "soft" paint
finishes and that is fine for those who
memorize which is which.

That aside, what is the current detail industry
practice for determining paint "hardness"?
I'm not talking about weather or not the paint
is fully cured. Lets assume the paint is fully cured.

As a detailer assessing a cars finish, how do you
determine "hard" paint from "soft" paint?
Click to expand...
Below, IMHO, is the definitive
information regarding paint “hardness”.

Bob


**********************************************

Re: Paint Hardness

“You don't know how hard or soft the paint is
on any car until you go out into your garage
and actualy start to work on it.


In a nutshell, no one should be making broad
statements about hard and/or soft paint,
because, no one knows how hard or soft the
paint is on each car until they go out into the
garage and work on it.


It is at the point that you bring your hand down
on the paint,or a machine and do a little cleaning
that you're going to find out if the paint you're
working on is hard or soft.


***Pretty simple really,
if you with your 4 fingers pushing down on an
applicator pad with a paint cleaner like ScratchX
can remove swirls and scratches with 2-3
applications using perfect technique, then
the paint is workable, or polish-able.
If you can't then the paint is hard.***

Same goes for machine applied paint cleaners
or cleaner/polishes.


You really don't know whether the paint on
your car is hard or soft until you go out into
your garage and test it to see what can be done.


Don't follow the advice of anyone on a forum
making broad statements about different models
of cars having hard or soft paint, they really
shouldn't be doing this disservice to people.”


~ Mike Phillips

***********************************************
 
FUNX650 said:
Below, IMHO, is the definitive
information regarding paint “hardness”.

Bob


**********************************************

Re: Paint Hardness

“You don't know how hard or soft the paint is
on any car until you go out into your garage
and actualy start to work on it.


In a nutshell, no one should be making broad
statements about hard and/or soft paint,
because, no one knows how hard or soft the
paint is on each car until they go out into the
garage and work on it.


It is at the point that you bring your hand down
on the paint,or a machine and do a little cleaning
that you're going to find out if the paint you're
working on is hard or soft.


***Pretty simple really,
if you with your 4 fingers pushing down on an
applicator pad with a paint cleaner like ScratchX
can remove swirls and scratches with 2-3
applications using perfect technique, then
the paint is workable, or polish-able.
If you can't then the paint is hard.***

Same goes for machine applied paint cleaners
or cleaner/polishes.


You really don't know whether the paint on
your car is hard or soft until you go out into
your garage and test it to see what can be done.


Don't follow the advice of anyone on a forum
making broad statements about different models
of cars having hard or soft paint, they really
shouldn't be doing this disservice to people.”


~ Mike Phillips

***********************************************
Click to expand...

Bob that is awesome, and straight from "the Man" himself.

Thanks guys for all the replies.... You ROCK!!
 
I totally agree with Mike however will also emphasize careful inspection both before and after. I always take a good look at the paint and defects with adequate light before I attempt my test spot(s). After I do a test spot, I take another very careful look at the after condition and with the exact same light that hasn't moved. The results or lack of jump right out at you.

Now that goes without saying but my point is to study the paint closely. I'm also able to see the workability with some products while I'm working the section.
 
You can also have repainted areas that can differ in hardness from the OEM paint.
 
Section 4 Page 19 Paint Hardness or Softness

Polishable: Capable of being polished.

Polishability: To the degree a surface or coating can be polished.

Too hard, extremely difficult to level paint in an effort to reomove below-surface defects.

Too soft, so soft that just the act of wiping the paint with a clean soft microfiber polishing towel can instill swirls and scratches.

The best paint sysems are some where between these two extremes. This would be a paint system the average person can work on. By this I mean a paint sytem soft enough that defects can be removed but hard enough to resist scratching through normal maintenance procedures while still providing long service life.
 
Mike Phillips said:
I also answer this question in my how-to book,

The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine


I'll send a prize to the first person that shares the page and the what I wrote.

:)
Click to expand...


Section 4 Page 19 Paint Hardness or Softness

Polishable: Capable of being polished.

Polishability: To the degree a surface or coating can be polished.

Too hard, extremely difficult to level paint in an effort to reomove below-surface defects.

Too soft, so soft that just the act of wiping the paint with a clean soft microfiber polishing towel can instill swirls and scratches.

The best paint sysems are some where between these two extremes. This would be a paint system the average person can work on. By this I mean a paint sytem soft enough that defects can be removed but hard enough to resist scratching through normal maintenance procedures while still providing long service life.

I purchased this great book as soon as it came out on ibooks, it's a must have!
 
custmsprty said:
Section 4 Page 19 Paint Hardness or Softness

Polishable: Capable of being polished.

Polishability: To the degree a surface or coating can be polished.

Too hard, extremely difficult to level paint in an effort to reomove below-surface defects.

Too soft, so soft that just the act of wiping the paint with a clean soft microfiber polishing towel can instill swirls and scratches.

The best paint sysems are some where between these two extremes. This would be a paint system the average person can work on. By this I mean a paint sytem soft enough that defects can be removed but hard enough to resist scratching through normal maintenance procedures while still providing long service life.
Click to expand...


The above portion is good, I started using the words polishable and polishability about 15 years ago on MOL, seem to help describe what we do and the characteristics of some paints.


There's another portion I wrote about how to tell hard paint from soft paint and I'll include it here later. Believe it or not, I don't have a copy of this book in my office. I usually do but when guests visit Autogeek I tend to give them a copy and thus I end up having to put in an order for more books. (They are provided to anyone that takes any of the automotive classes).



custmsprty said:
I purchased this great book as soon as it came out on ibooks, it's a must have!
Click to expand...


Thank you!

It's hard to write a book where you share yourself, your insights and your experience gained over the years from buffing out thousands of cars (and other things), and also teaching classes. I read once that the best way to learn is to teach.


:)
 
Mike Phillips said:
I read once that the best way to learn is to teach.
Click to expand...

The way the medical profession teaches is exactly that. It is know as "see one, do one, teach one". You observe, you do, and then the real learning is done by the teaching of others.

I am very active in the Boy Scouts (now Scouting), and our Troop uses this method extensively. A new Scout watches at a meeting while an older Scout demonstrates how to set up a tent. The new Scout practices at a meeting, and then puts his new knowledge to good use setting up his own tent (with the guidance of an older Scout) during his first campout. Within a campout or two, the new Scout is expert at setting up tents. Next year, when a new batch of new Scouts join the Troop, that guy is now the demonstrator, guiding the newest Scouts toward learning a skill.

Almost universally, Scouts that are getting ready to leave the Troop to attend college point to this method of learning as the single greatest influence on their success - Not only in Scouting, but in their lives. The process works, and it works so well that a 17 year old young man can recognize the value it provided himself.

See one, do one, teach one - A great plan for your classes, and I am sure it is why you see so many people here express positively their experience attending your classes. I hope to be among that group someday soon.
 
Mike Phillips said:
The above portion is good, I started using the words polishable and polishability about 15 years ago on MOL, seem to help describe what we do and the characteristics of some paints.


There's another portion I wrote about how to tell hard paint from soft paint and I'll include it here later. Believe it or not, I don't have a copy of this book in my office. I usually do but when guests visit Autogeek I tend to give them a copy and thus I end up having to put in an order for more books. (They are provided to anyone that takes any of the automotive classes).






Thank you!

It's hard to write a book where you share yourself, your insights and your experience gained over the years from buffing out thousands of cars (and other things), and also teaching classes. I read once that the best way to learn is to teach.


:)
Click to expand...

I have a hard copy of your book too, but what I really like about your ibook is the interactivity of the videos. It's helped me numerous times to illustrate to a person what we are going to achieve and how.
 
mk9750 said:
The way the medical profession teaches is exactly that. It is know as "see one, do one, teach one". You observe, you do, and then the real learning is done by the teaching of others.
Click to expand...

I have an article very similar to the above, the date I wrote it is September 22nd, 2004 - Today is September 20th, 2018. In 2 days, this article I wrote will be 14 years old!

Each one, teach one... Ferrari Fiorano 355 F1 Spider

The owner of a car dealership, (I think), flew out to Apple Valley, California where I lived at the time and picked me up in his plane and then flew me to Malibu where he lived. He kept his Ferrari in an hanger at the airport in Malibu. He had a guy that he paid to wash and wax his cars but he wanted the swirls removed out of his Ferrari and he knew his guy didn't have the tools, knowledge or skills to do the job. So he hired me to basically teach this young man how to do this type of work.


2MartinPolishing1.jpg




I wonder what ever happened with this guy?

By the way, lots of pictures and information in the actual write-up that's still just as accurate today as when I wrote it.


Before
2IMG_8146RAW.jpg





After - Sun was getting low in the sky so here's what I got....

2600_F1SunonHood1.jpg



And the proud young man that did the majority of all the work...

Martin
2600_Martin.jpg



"Each one, teach one"




mk9750 said:
I am very active in the Boy Scouts (now Scouting), and our Troop uses this method extensively. A new Scout watches at a meeting while an older Scout demonstrates how to set up a tent. The new Scout practices at a meeting, and then puts his new knowledge to good use setting up his own tent (with the guidance of an older Scout) during his first campout. Within a campout or two, the new Scout is expert at setting up tents. Next year, when a new batch of new Scouts join the Troop, that guy is now the demonstrator, guiding the newest Scouts toward learning a skill.

Almost universally, Scouts that are getting ready to leave the Troop to attend college point to this method of learning as the single greatest influence on their success - Not only in Scouting, but in their lives. The process works, and it works so well that a 17 year old young man can recognize the value it provided himself.
Click to expand...

I was a Boy Scout, great experience, I like the camping parts the best...


mk9750 said:
See one, do one, teach one - A great plan for your classes, and I am sure it is why you see so many people here express positively their experience attending your classes.

I hope to be among that group someday soon.
Click to expand...


I hope you can make a future class too, I do everything I can to make sure you have GREAT cars to train on and it's hands-on from start to finish - very LITTLE sitting time as I know people learn from doing, not sitting.


:)
 
Test spot! To determine hard or soft, my first test spot is to use a FINISHING polish with a polishing or finishing pad. If this combo leaves micro-marring, the paint is on the softer side. Micro-marring is most noticeable on black paint.
 
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