i am disappointed from my 21 MK2

[aderet]

hey guys!since day one i am trying to convince myself and others that my rupes 21 mk2 is the best thing but you know what? i was wrong,its a big disappointed ..
i have it for a year and barley use it, she can cover big and straight surface but on curves? a waste of time...mark 2 or not it's stall and no matter what Technic i use-i have to spend much more time then what i do with my 3401.


another problem s the fact she is killing pads- the original rupes pads on a rupes machine is so sensitive...the torq and the heat is destroying the pads.


another problem is that she "flays off" pads, the Velcro just does not steak the the BC with the original pads.
BTW-i barley speed up more then 4..


for me the rupes was a waste of money.

 

[tpr1634]

I have a original 15 Rupes and I feel the same way, no balls and over rated at that time. I will reach for my 3401 every time and I like Rupes but with the stalling and I tried thin pads and tried different techniques for my money it was a waste and as we know they are not cheap. I even wanted to try the mk2 15 but I figured I was only going to get burnt again. Sorry Rupes just the way it is build one that doesn’t stall so easy and you have a winner.

 

[dlc95]

It took a a few cars to really understand the concept of using the Rupes tools.

On page two of Mike Phillips' how to book - How To Use The Rupes Bigfoot Paint Polishing System, he previews his 11 tips for using the tool - "Forget everything you've ever learned and know from your experience using other polishers". And he was right. Like I've mentioned before, the book was a huge part of my being comfortable with this system.

Then there is the 3401. The whole technique using just about any random orbital - regardless of how powerful the tool is, and how well developed your technique - is all but unnecessary with the 3401. Removing this variable from the equation is a huge benefit for some people, as the motion of the pad is reliably consistent - regardless of the shape of the panel being worked.

To get the Rupes technique down might take more time than one might want, or has time to put in. I say make no apologies, and use the set up that works best for you.

 

[DBAILEY]

What made you think a 21 with that giant foot print as far as pad movement would have been a good choice? Its not like its a nimble machine for use on curvy panels. It was meant for big flat panels. Its not a good choice for use as an all around polisher.

 

[LEDetailing]

I was a little disappointed at first with my Rupes 15 Mk2, then I learned how and when to use it. Now, I cannot imagine trying to polish without my Rupes.

I would like a 3401, but that isn’t going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Joe@NextLevelDetail]

Are you using the washer mod?

The MK2 has a tremendous amount of more power compared to the first gen.

If you have no tried the washer mod, This is the answer to your problem. That machine on speed 4 is just a complete monster. the contour has to be pretty drastic if you can not get it to spin. You also have to learn how to manipulate the machine so you can maintain pad rotation.

The washer mod vs no washer mod debate will always go on, There are some people that say it is not needed.

To me it is like driving with a e-brake on, Why limit the power of the machine. The shroud restricts rotation and this can cause excess pad stall in curve areas.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

This is a difficult thread for me to respond to, because I don't want to make it sound like I am blaming you. I hate that you are not getting the results you want with the Mark II, but I am also fairly confident, unless it is a defective tool, there are a few technique adjustments that can be made for you to get the most out of your investment.

One of my job descriptions as Senior Technical Advisor for RUPES is to develop training protocols and to teach classes of people how to use our tools. I have spoken to a few guys who have, unfortunately, had a similar experience, and with just a little instruction we are able to get them up and running.

1) Make sure that the interface between the shroud and the backing plate is lubricated. A drop of vaseline or dielectric grease will do fine. Put a smudge on the backing plate, rotate the backing plate... move on.

2) Drink a sip of coffee, or a glass, or a 24-oz. container and prepare for number 3...

3) Had your coffee? Awake? Good... here we go.

The biggest issue I see with people suffering from poor performance with a large-diameter orbital polisher is that they are not holding the pad flat to the surface. The center of the part (or which ever part of the pad is being used if you are edging) should be near-flat at all times. I have seen many detailers and professionals "think" they are flat, but they aren't even close. I have taken pictures to show them, videos, etc and the look on their face is priceless. IF you have a friend who can video tape you, from a low angle, polishing a panel, you might gain great insight.

Why do I think this is the problem you are suffering from? Because of the problems you are having with pad life and heat are usually caused by either A) too much down pressure or B) interface angle.

Imagine the backing plate is moving in a large Mr. Myagi motion above the paint. Large circles/orbits (with or without rotation). Now we insert a pad in this space, perfectly even with the paint. It will "scrub" in the same motion as the backing plate with little deflection. Now if we angle 'northern' edge of the backing plate downward just a handful of degrees, each time the backing plate orbits to the north, it is compressing the foam, and each time it angles to the south, it is pulling the back edge of the foam from the paint.

The backing plate is literally 'punching' the paint, and the foam is caught in the middle. The larger the orbit, the more energy the pad absorbs, the more heat begins to build, the more the foam structure looses rigidity, and the cycle repeats until you are frustrated with the performance of the tool AND the life of the pads.

In addition to using a video camera, I have a technique that I teach people that seems to help... But before sharing that, consider this point. If you watch a painter paint a panel, they break their risk as they sweep side-to-side. This keeps the spray gun perpendicular to the paint for even application, like a robotic arm traveling on a rack. When we polish, we should break our wrists in a similar fashion as we extend outward, otherwise we will naturally angle the polisher the further we expand outside our shoulder width. If you are "white-knuckle" gripping the polisher and holding it tight you will naturally induce angle as you move across the paint, and will accidentally angle the polisher even when you think you are flat.

So....

Mark the edge of the backing plate with a marker so you can visualize rotation. Now, set the polisher on a flat or near-flat surface (just to learn), use a 7-inch pad without a washer mod (but make sure the interface is lubricated). Using speed 3, depress the trigger and use the trigger lock....

Now we are going to polish the panel using just the thumb of one hand and the finger of another, barely holding the tool. Whichever hand you use to "grip" the leading edge of the tool, use just your thumb to apply barely enough down pressure to hold the foam to the paint. Whichever hand you use to grip the handle, use just your index finger to lift the handle slightly (since in operation it is SLIGHTLY tail heavy). Once running, BigFoot Random Orbital Polishers will "self-level" if we just help them along with two fingers and the lightest of touch.

Other polishing movements, like gear-driven and rotary, require a firmer grip because of the steering, and thus can create some bad habits with random orbital polishers. Keep your grip light and let the polisher do all of the work. Move it around the paint, watch your backing plate marker, make small adjustments. In a few minutes, you will "get it".

When I have instructed people who suffer from similar performance issues, they usually have a death grip on the head of the tool and any movement induces angle. The large-diameter random orbital tools will do the work for you.

I hope this helps. If not, shoot me an email at my first name and last initial @RUPESUSA.com, and I will give you my cell phone number.

Yours in better polishing,
Todd

 

[zmcgovern45]

^^^Very, very good observation regarding keeping the pad flat.

This was something that I thought I was doing initially, but I had been using the Porter Cable before we switched to all Rupes machines, and when we did I was struggling to maintain rotation even on flat panels. I believe the longer handle on the machine makes it easier to get slightly off angle and therefore stall the machine for the reasons mentioned above. After figuring this out, and putting some real focus on maintaining a truly flat pad, we have had no complaints about our Rupes (21’s, 15’s, 75’s, and Nano)... they can even be quite effective on complicated panel shapes/contours with this tidbit of knowledge.

 

[Justin at Final Inspection]

Great response Todd! Without turning this into a debate, once you get used to using your MK2 I can almost be certain you will never turn back to a forced rotation. My 21 and 3in 12mm throw machines pretty much tackle everything along with my Ibrid. My 3401 sits in the bag. The smoothness and correction ability of a long throw is undeniable.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Just to comment....

The first time I used the RUPES polishers I had to unlearn most of what I knew. When I wrote the RUPES how-to book I shared this experience in it.

The other thing I shared in the RUPES book (and you can tell by the title), is that RUPES is not a tool, it's a system.


That said, if you spend enough time with any tool you can learn to make it dance on paint. Last Saturday I held a wetsanding class here at Autogeek and we ran into bad paint. That's all I can figure out about it is that the actual paint that is the resin and pigments are bad or inexpensive because on a few panels we ran into issues creating a uniform clear high gloss finish. My guess is these trouble areas were re-painted after the initial paint was sprayed because some of the panels buffed up to a super high gloss finish with no trouble at all.

Suffice to say, after a lot of experimenting with 6 different tools, the ONLY tool that created acceptable results was the RUPES BigFoot 21 with the RUPES Zephir Gloss Coarse Compound and the RUPES blue coarse foam cutting pad. <--AND this was for final polishing, not first step polishing.


Now here's where what I've written above applies to the topic of this thread.

My good friend Frank and I re-polished the entire car on Monday, (after the class on Sunday), using ONLY the RUPES BigFoot 21 and the RUPES 7" diameter foam cutting pad.

Now look at the curves panels and the TIGHT AREAS we had to get into from the side shot of this car...

In order to maintain pad rotation for the NON large flat panel areas we had to use a technique I shared on page 64 of my how to book where I "gingerly" touched on the topic of going up on edge when using the BigFoot 21 and the 7" pad to cause the pad to reverse rotate BUT MAINTAIN PAD ROTATION and thereby enabling you/me to power through a detail job.


Here's a picture of that section I just took with my cell phone.... note the first sentence,

This is not a RUPES technique but a Mike Phillips technique.

So use this technique at your own discretion. And also note - to my knowledge RUPES has never recommended this technique, it's just something I figured out after using large pads on a rotary buffers to buff out thin or tight areas for years. The really BIG PICTURE is you purchase a collection of RUPES tools and then match the tool and thus the pad size to the panel you need to buff instead of making a pad that's too large for the panel work.


In my article here,

FLEX 3401 or RUPES? - A question I get asked a lot! -Mike Phillips

I show pictures of this technique from an old 2-door Chevy project we did here at AG.




Buffing a tight area UP ON EDGE using a RUPES BigFoot 21

Custom Paint Job - 1980 Corvette - RUPES & Gyeon - Extreme Show Car Makeover at Autogeek


Buffing on edge with the RUPES BigFoot 21 Mark II

I cover this technique on page 64 of my RUPES how-to book.

Final results...

Besides using the tool wrong, that is using the 7" pad on edge to buff out tight areas or thin panels, Todd is correct, you need to hold the tool in a way that you keep the face of the pad flat to the surface. This also includes buffing out curved panels where only a portion of the panel is in contact with the face of the pad - it just has to be in contact with the center footprint of the pad - not the edges of the pad. Hard to explain with a keyboard - easier to show in person.


If a tool works - with enough time behind the tool you can make it dance on paint.

 

[Ronin47]

Great response Todd! Without turning this into a debate, once you get used to using your MK2 I can almost be certain you will never turn back to a forced rotation. My 21 and 3in 12mm throw machines pretty much tackle everything along with my Ibrid. My 3401 sits in the bag. The smoothness and correction ability of a long throw is undeniable.

You just saved me from typing all this, I echo your sentiments exactly.

The only thing I would like to add is the 21 MKII, Mille and LH75E Mini are the tools I now use 99% of the time, no stall on my 21 MKII on any contours.

 

[SWETM]

Wow here comes alot of technique tips that I will test when polishing next.

A question on primeing the rupes pad their is a way to do with the first contact to the paint. You are recommended to build up some heat to the pad with it standing on the same spot for about 30 seconds I believe it was. This is to save the pads longevity and performance. Can someone write it thrue how correctly do this? It's something that I don't hear much about. But saw on rag companys Youtube chanel with a guest from rupes. And that is a very different way to prime the pads.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Wow here comes alot of technique tips that I will test when polishing next.

A question on primeing the rupes pad their is a way to do with the first contact to the paint. You are recommended to build up some heat to the pad with it standing on the same spot for about 30 seconds I believe it was. This is to save the pads longevity and performance. Can someone write it thrue how correctly do this? It's something that I don't hear much about. But saw on rag companys Youtube chanel with a guest from rupes. And that is a very different way to prime the pads.

For the Random Orbital Polishers Foam Pads: Place pea-sized drops of product about 2/3's the way out around the pad. I prefer 6 drops on the 180mm and 150 mm pads, about 3 drops on the 100 mm pads, and a drop on the nano's pads. Run for about 30 seconds using firm pressure for over a smaller than normal polishing section. The idea is bring the face of the foam up to operating temperature (necessary for blue, gray, and green foams) and to spread a thin amount of compound of the foam's face.

For the Random Orbital Polishers Microfiber Pads: Butter the entire face of the pad with compound.

 

[SWETM]

For the Random Orbital Polishers Foam Pads: Place pea-sized drops of product about 2/3's the way out around the pad. I prefer 6 drops on the 180mm and 150 mm pads, about 3 drops on the 100 mm pads, and a drop on the nano's pads. Run for about 30 seconds using firm pressure for over a smaller than normal polishing section. The idea is bring the face of the foam up to operating temperature (necessary for blue, gray, and green foams) and to spread a thin amount of compound of the foam's face.

For the Random Orbital Polishers Microfiber Pads: Butter the entire face of the pad with compound.

Thank you Todd for the answer.

 

[kkritsilas]

Great response Todd! Without turning this into a debate, once you get used to using your MK2 I can almost be certain you will never turn back to a forced rotation. My 21 and 3in 12mm throw machines pretty much tackle everything along with my Ibrid. My 3401 sits in the bag. The smoothness and correction ability of a long throw is undeniable.

It is incorrect to say "...The smoothness and correction ability of a long throw is undeniable.....", because there are other long throw polisher that will not be as smooth as the Rupes polishers. There are plenty of cheap Chinese long throw polishers that won't be anything near as smooth as a Rupes, even though they may have the same throw. What I am saying is it isn't the throw length that makes a Rupes smooth, it is the engineering and development by Rupes that makes their long throws smooth, something which is not necessarily true of all long throw polishers.

 

[Heisenberg]

It is incorrect to say "...The smoothness and correction ability of a long throw is undeniable.....", because there are other long throw polisher that will not be as smooth as the Rupes polishers. There are plenty of cheap Chinese long throw polishers that won't be anything near as smooth as a Rupes, even though they may have the same throw. What I am saying is it isn't the throw length that makes a Rupes smooth, it is the engineering and development by Rupes that makes their long throws smooth, something which is not necessarily true of all long throw polishers.

Seemed like independent thoughts to me. The smoothness of the Rupes is undeniable, and the correction ability of a long throw is undeniable as well.

Dunno why you felt compelled to comment on that part of his sentence, but I guess I felt equally compelled to point out that you may not need to be so quick to point out someone being incorrect when you might have just read it incorrectly yourself.

 

[dcjredline]

So what I am reading (And agree with) is...

3401 - No learning curve as long as your muscles are more developed than a 14yo female
Long Throw - Whole new technique to learn to get it to not stall as much as any old other plain jane DA polisher does.

Sorry, I had to be a smart ass cause Im a 3401 fan all the way. Long throw doesnt really impress me that much, IF I was doing alot of panel vans I may just consider it but every single car on the road today has sick body lines and I cant imagine using something with a 21mm throw and a THIN 7" pad. Yeesh

 

[kkritsilas]

I felt compelled to comment because the original statement would have lead some people reading the post that all long throw polishers were equally smooth. That is not the case; in the case of long throw polishers, it is the engineering/development/refinement of the Rupes that makes it as smooth as it is. That smoothness is NOT caused by a polisher having a long throw, it is because of who manufactured the polisher.

I didn't say anything regarding the correction ability. And to be honest, even that will vary between long throw polishers, even with the same throw, based on things like motor power, gear reduction ratio, etc. Do you think that a 21mm long throw polisher, made by some unknown Chinese cut every corner possible factory, with a 100W motor will have great correcting ability? I don't. Great tools, like the Rupes and other recognized brands, have earned their reputations by designing/engineering/refining and manufacturing good tools. This is over and above the throw length, or even type (free rotation vs. forced rotation) of system.

As for the rest, it is pedantic and unnecessary. You are correcting me on something I never even wrote about.

 

[Ronin47]

So what I am reading (And agree with) is...

3401 - No learning curve as long as your muscles are more developed than a 14yo female
Long Throw - Whole new technique to learn to get it to not stall as much as any old other plain jane DA polisher does.

Sorry, I had to be a smart ass cause Im a 3401 fan all the way. Long throw doesnt really impress me that much, IF I was doing alot of panel vans I may just consider it but every single car on the road today has sick body lines and I cant imagine using something with a 21mm throw and a THIN 7" pad. Yeesh

We were fans of black and white tv’s and fax machines too.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

So what I am reading (And agree with) is...

3401 - No learning curve as long as your muscles are more developed than a 14yo female
Long Throw - Whole new technique to learn to get it to not stall as much as any old other plain jane DA polisher does.

Sorry, I had to be a smart ass cause Im a 3401 fan all the way. Long throw doesnt really impress me that much, IF I was doing alot of panel vans I may just consider it but every single car on the road today has sick body lines and I cant imagine using something with a 21mm throw and a THIN 7" pad. Yeesh

If I may...

First. My (now) 16-year old neighbor is the Florida State Champ for her weight division (105 lbs or similar) in Olympic Lighting, and even at 14, she was moving serious weight... just sayin'.

Second. It is my opinion that gear-driven polishers are less technique dependent than random orbital polishers (which become slightly more technique specific as the orbital length increases). The trade-off with gear-driven polishers is you pay for this with a rougher rider and more fatigue. RUPES, with the Mille, has made a serious effort to create a gear-driven polisher that ramps up user comfort to levels unthought of before while offering class-leading performance.

Third. Too much attention is paid to pad stall. If we freeze the rotational movement, large-diameter random orbital polishers like the 21 will still produce more movement across the entire diameter of the pad than most gear-driven polishers do at full RPM. It is a matter of utilizing that power with proper technique and pad formulas that makes the difference.

I am a firm believer that off the polishing movements currently available : orbital, random orbital, gear-driven, and rotary - random orbital still offers the best average of attributes.