Is beading overrated?

Mike is on the button about perception.

As someone who manufactures/designs this sort of product, I probably have a better grounding to comment than most. What i will tell you is that EVERYONE wants beading. I might be selling products to a non specialist brand or it could be to a niche detailing brand, but they always want strong beading with their wax/sealants.

In reality, beading leads to water spots. In a perfect world, I would like a sealant which is totally the opposite and sheets water (note that means that water sticks to the surface and is NOT the same as when detailers talk about sheeting - this is actually just the same as beading, but it does so slightly differently). This would mean that any minerals within the water will be spread uniformly over the vehicle. It also means that the paint is easier to clean. Cleaning 101 will tell you that the key goal is to wet out your soiling. If you have strongly water repellent paint, it is darned difficult to wet! Hydrophobic surfaces are extremely difficult to clean without abrasion or specialised wetting agents. In fact, if you look at a lot of people with shampoo and mitts, you will see that their bubbly shampoo solution breaks up on their sealant, it fails to wet properly (this is a fault of the shampoo and the brand failing to recognise this clear indicator of a short coming). Hydrophobic surfaces will, however, be more inclined to stay clean in the first place. It is swings and round abouts - hydrophobic is hard to get dirty but hard to get clean when it is, hydrophillic is more inclined to get dirty (but uniformly so you might not realise) but decidedly easier to fix when it does.

Unfortunately, as Megs somewhat demonstrated, even the niche markets are unaware or unwilling to accept these realities. As a product designer, I wouldn't waste my time on such a project, even though I know that the performance would be good.

Another thing that should be considered is what actually constitutes protection? The peak of demonstrations of protection are when some idiot throws a lighter or a set of keys and says "wow, it didn't scratch". This is the sort of lovely demo which tells you nothing beyond the level of scientific knowledge or the demonstrator! So what is protection really?

Another question, those products which start beading and get less so but claim still to be protecting - how are they protecting? Why has the beading gone and how does it not mean that their product has now degraded? Are they being honest that it is still there at all!?
 
I actually have seen bird poo bead up. I noticed it on the right rear corner panel one day about 10 days after WGDPS was applied. I hit it with a water hose and it flew right off.
EEEEWWWW!!!

My guess is:
•You probably were noticing the metabolic-waste:
(excretion/uric acid/"the white stuff")...

-"boiling away"/separating from the solid-wastes:
(defecation/feces/"the black stuff").


•Don't know what, if any, role the WDGPS
played in the separation, then removal of
this striking color-themed contaminate. :D


Bob
 
I love beading and use it to determine when I need to re-apply a wax/sealant. In my eyes, if a car isn't beading anymore, then the wax/sealant that I put down has been completely removed and it's time to re-apply. If not for water beads, how would we know that the paint is still being protected?
 
I love beading and use it to determine when I need to re-apply a wax/sealant. In my eyes, if a car isn't beading anymore, then the wax/sealant that I put down has been completely removed and it's time to re-apply. If not for water beads, how would we know that the paint is still being protected?

That is the association most consumers have... beading = protection, however the point many of us are trying to bring awareness to is that there is no guarantee that the paint is protected just because water beads on it.

Water beading is simply an indication of high surface tension... many things can lower surface tension. Shampoos/detergents, contaminates, etc. So, the point is that just because the paint beads less or is not beading at all, there is no way to determine if the layer of protection (wax, sealant, coating, whatever) is still present or not.

Beading has simply become the signal that many people look towards to determine if a car is protected or needs a new layer, when in fact it's just a guess.

If you're using traditional waxes and sealants, then sure... go ahead and reapply a new layer to restore the beading, however it gets a little trickier if you're using paint coatings. Chemically, coatings are much much much more resistant to normal environmental wear and tear than a wax or sealant. It has been said that the bond developed within these coatings will require a considerable amount of energy to break, and in most cases will require abrasives (or great amounts of time) to remove, so just because a coating stops beading, does that mean it is gone? My argument is no... it just means the surface tension was altered. Should you desire beading, there are plenty of coating toppers that will increase slickness and raise surface tension to promote hydrophobic behavior.
 
That is the association most consumers have... beading = protection, however the point many of us are trying to bring awareness to is that there is no guarantee that the paint is protected just because water beads on it.

Water beading is simply an indication of high surface tension... many things can lower surface tension. Shampoos/detergents, contaminates, etc. So, the point is that just because the paint beads less or is not beading at all, there is no way to determine if the layer of protection (wax, sealant, coating, whatever) is still present or not.

Beading has simply become the signal that many people look towards to determine if a car is protected or needs a new layer, when in fact it's just a guess.

If you're using traditional waxes and sealants, then sure... go ahead and reapply a new layer to restore the beading, however it gets a little trickier if you're using paint coatings. Chemically, coatings are much much much more resistant to normal environmental wear and tear than a wax or sealant. It has been said that the bond developed within these coatings will require a considerable amount of energy to break, and in most cases will require abrasives (or great amounts of time) to remove, so just because a coating stops beading, does that mean it is gone? My argument is no... it just means the surface tension was altered. Should you desire beading, there are plenty of coating toppers that will increase slickness and raise surface tension to promote hydrophobic behavior.

I can see the point of view regarding coatings since it is a chemical bond to the paint, much more of a bond than a sealant or wax.

But waxes and sealants don't have that kind of chemical bond and you have to go by something to know when to reapply.

Though with coatings, what would you use as your guage to know when to reapply? Further, how is "durability" tested during the R&D phases? Is there some kind of test or instrument used to test the decline of the protection? We have been told that certain coatings last a year, or that you can see up to two months of durability from a given sealant or wax...but how does one (consumer or professional) truly know when their protection has deteriorated to the point where a new application is necessary?

I think we have to go by some kind of visual queue, and that's what beading is for us. I'd also venture to say that just because one form of protection offers small tight beads and the other brand offers larger beads, that one is not better than the other. Simply stating that as beading decreases, it can be taken as a sign that the protection you put down is starting to deteriorate.
 
Beading is highly overrated, and based upon the experts who have posted on this thread and others in the past I'm going with overrated. And water spots stink.
 
Is beading overrated?

(Sonax BSD)
19070274056_eee9771eab_c.jpg


No way! Im the MAN

With regards to the push for "sheeting" LSP's:

This is what the paint looked like after a heavy rain storm in Florida with Meguiar's Paint Protect, which when flooded with the hose and nozzle produced a very slow moving sheet:

19537934265_cb71dae5fd_c.jpg


Even the least water repellent LSP's in today's market will produce significant beading during rain storms or accidental hard water sprinkler wet downs to result in heavy spotting. Clean, decontaminated, and polished paint after wiping down with a paint prep product to remove the oils will also leave you with enough "beading" if not enough volume of water is applied and cut off in a short enough time to allow the sheet to fully form and then gravitate off the paint clean and dry. The only time I see as close to a hydrophilic surface as it gets on cars to really avoid spotting, is when the paint is completely contaminated and unpolished, or soiled with road grime. During a rain storm the least volume of water is needed to connect the sheet as the water is forced flat by contaminants and it has a lower tendency to spot.

In Florida, I've not noticed any significant spotting from the rain storms here regardless of what type of "beading" or "sheeting" LSP I have on the paint. And after setting up the hard water sprinkler test with both types of products on the paint, I noticed very similar levels of spotting. If you want to combat this idea of spotting, you're going to have to come out with a true hydrophilic product or closer to it, because just lowering the surface tension in relation to other products so the beads aren't as cool looking :coolgleam: isn't giving me much of an incentive to like the product more, especially when I'm not seeing any difference in the level of spotting in my environment. It has to be a product with a lower surface tension compared to that of clean and polished paint and much lower than LSP's I'm seeing on the market right now. That's my personal experience.

That hydrophilic property comes with its own set of problems as well. The water sheet no longer flows off the paint through gravity, a large amount of water sticks to the surface until it's evaporated. Harder to dry properly, and any time hard water evaporates you leave behind whatever was in that water on the paint.

With water beading, people want to see that difference in the water behavior and attribute it to the idea that the product has survived on the paint. That's what more aggressive water beading does and the longer it does it, the more durable it is considered. And the closer you get to the water behavior baseline of having no LSP on the paint, the more people question the effectiveness of the product, especially when they've seen a drastic change in the water behavior from their first wash with it. And we are at the level where products are leaving behind a level of beading durable for months where people can be more assured of the life of the product through some sort of observable evidence.

No beading = no spotting. But I haven't seen products that are going to reduce the surface tension and beading enough to be able to market it towards a much more attractive purchase.
 
I've said it before but i would like to invent an LSP Thickness Gauge! I like Joshs2013 question...how do the manufacturers base their longevity claims on? Is there a test they perform of some sort? If so, how do they do it?
 
I agree with Loach.
Btw, I've seen the youtube vids you've put together and I found them to be a unique and informative watch. I really like your vids. Thumbs up.👍🏽

Long live the beads:)

View attachment 39409
 
I've said it before but i would like to invent an LSP Thickness Gauge! I like Joshs2013 question...how do the manufacturers base their longevity claims on? Is there a test they perform of some sort? If so, how do they do it?
Here's one type of evaluation process:

•There are numerous (and expensive)
ASTM Testing Standards, that can be
performed by unbiased independent labs,
on automotive car-care products.

•Do all car-care products manufacturers subject
each and everyone of their individual products to
these ASTM testing standards?
-Off the top of my head I'll say: 'probably not'.


Bob
 
You guys are beading this topic to death! �� OK bad humor but couldn't resist. We live in a time where the products are so advanced, even the lower end products provide protection that was, for the most part, unavailable 20 years ago. And it's our passion! That's pretty cool.
 
my car sits outside all day so when it rains and the water beads up all pretty by the time I get home it's dried into hundreds of tiny dirt spots.


Dirt Spots - I have an article on this... I wrote this back in 2008 when I ran MOL

Washed my truck on Friday, so it wasn't freshly washed before it rained, it had been 2 days, (took these pictures on Monday). but the truck wasn't what you would call dirty, just dusty.

Here's some photos of the dirt spots on the hood after a light sprinkle early in the morning.

Original pic #1
DirtSpotsFromRain001.jpg

Original pic #1 resized to 800 pixels wide
DirtSpotsFromRain001c.jpg


Original pic #2
DirtSpotsFromRain002.jpg

Original pic #1 resized to 800 pixels wide
DirtSpotsFromRain002c.jpg


Close-ups...
DirtSpotsFromRain003.jpg

DirtSpotsFromRain004.jpg


Now some of the dirt on the hood could have been blown onto the hood via the wind and then heavier deposits of dirt accumulated on the water puddles/spots. Even so, the end result is dirt on the water spots after the rain because where your car is parked, if it rains it could also be windy.

From the looks of the last two close-ups, it looks like it would be safer to rinse the car really well and then wash it, not wipe it down.
Personal preference.

:xyxthumbs:
 
Interesting in that Sonax PNS and BSD bead as well or better than most products, but I never seem to get water spotting in my paint when using them. Collinites (845, 476, 915) all bead almost as well as the Sonax, but I usually suffer with terrible water spots when I use them. Obviously the Sonax products protect against that much better, but the beads are similar.

Not to knock Collinite, they are some of my favorite LSP's.
 
Here's one type of evaluation process:

•There are numerous (and expensive)
ASTM Testing Standards, that can be
performed by unbiased independent labs,
on automotive car-care products.

•Do all car-care products manufacturers subject
each and everyone of their individual products to
these ASTM testing standards?
-Off the top of my head I'll say: 'probably not'.


Bob

Unlike other products such as motor oil, which has to go through numerous engine testing, tear downs and ASTM testing, detailing products don't. Which leaves us with youtubers doing the testing. Makes it fun, but far from conclusive.

There simply are no industry standard tests in this industry that I am aware of.
 
Unlike other products such as motor oil, which has to go through numerous engine testing, tear downs and ASTM testing, detailing products don't. Which leaves us with youtubers doing the testing. Makes it fun, but far from conclusive.

There simply are no industry standard tests in this industry that I am aware of.

Six years later you are still correct in your assessment.
 
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