Lacquer

[BillH]

I have a 65 Mustang, white with blue stripes, painted in 1980 with lacquer, no clear. The car has been sitting pretty much under a car cover in a garage since. The painter took the easy way out, not sanding it between coats. The paint is pretty much what you would expect, orange peel and lots of DA marks. Various cracks in the paint, I was told this was due to really thick paint, since it was never color sanded, that makes sense. What I have now is a car with really shiny orange peel. I would like to improve it without making a mess.
So, what should I do? Please don’t say to take it to someone who knows what they are doing as there are a number of issues with going this route. I would like to do this myself. I have a Snap-On rotary buffer.

 

[Dubbin1]

Need pictures but I think I would start with a good wet sanding.

 

[roscoe]

was this car done with new panels or is there some fillers used to repair rust or dents

 

[BillH]

was this car done with new panels or is there some fillers used to repair rust or dents

Minimum filler, just the usual mistake of filling in the factory lead work, no body damage. No rust ever. I stripped the car in 1980.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Where are you located?

If it were me, I would machine sand it and then buff it out. Lacquer is normally the softest paint there is to work on, since this is white lacquer, the pigment type will make it harder but still, if you finish out with #3000 grit or higher it should buff real easy using a rotary buffer and a wool pad and quality compound.

A 1965 Mustang is a very cool car and even though there are some problems with the paint this is the perfect candidate for what I call,

"Taking your car's paint to it's maximum potential"


I recently wrote an very in-depth article on Dampsanding and it takes all the work out of sanding down a car the size of a Mustang and it also leaves a very uniform sanding mark pattern that buffs out fast and easy.

Check it out here...


Damp-Sanding Tools, Tips and Techniques by Mike Phillips


You'll need an air-powered DA sander or an electric DA sander, if it were me and you don't already own a DA Polisher like the PC, Megs or Griot's then I'd get one of these because then you can sand with it and machine polish and machine wax.


Oh yeah... since this was your first post... welcome to Autogeek Online!

:welcome:

 

[BillH]

Where are you located?

If it were me, I would machine sand it and then buff it out. Lacquer is normally the softest paint there is to work on, since this is white lacquer, the pigment type will make it harder but still, if you finish out with #3000 grit or higher it should buff real easy using a rotary buffer and a wool pad and quality compound.

A 1965 Mustang is a very cool car and even though there are some problems with the paint this is the perfect candidate for what I call,

"Taking your car's paint to it's maximum potential"


I recently wrote an very in-depth article on Dampsanding and it takes all the work out of sanding down a car the size of a Mustang and it also leaves a very uniform sanding mark pattern that buffs out fast and easy.

Check it out here...


Damp-Sanding Tools, Tips and Techniques by Mike Phillips


You'll need an air-powered DA sander or an electric DA sander, if it were me and you don't already own a DA Polisher like the PC, Megs or Griot's then I'd get one of these because then you can sand with it and machine polish and machine wax.


Oh yeah... since this was your first post... welcome to Autogeek Online!

:welcome:

Thanks, hopefully I won't be to much of a PIA!

As far as color sanding goes, the only thing I am really concerned about (except making a total mess of it) are the stripes. I have heard horror stories from other Shelby owners who tried to use a polisher on their stripes, only to have them disappear. (The stripes are applied over the top of the white. I insisted on that when I had the car painted to match what was done at the factory and I think they are quite thin) I had intended on color sanding and polishing the white parts with the stripes masked off and go over the stripes later by hand.

BTW: Do you know how hard it was to bring myself to actually apply sandpaper to this car for the first time?

 

[BobbyG]

Welcome Aboard Bill!!

Your Mustang is definitely worth any effort you need to put in.

Back in the day when Lacquer was widely used it was very common to see 18 coats of this and 30 coats of that. Because Lacquer was very easy to work with and just about anyone with a compressor and spray gun could shoot it most did. It's very common to see older lacquer finishes checked or cracked and the condition varies in degree. I've seen it so bad that the paint had to be entirely stripped and start over.

The checking and cracking you see is caused by the paints film thickness, too thick, or put on too heavy, and the difference in it's expansion rate compared to the sub-straight. Another thing that causes this condition is not waiting long enough between coats before applying the next. Lacquer also continues to dry and shrink for a long time. Typically when I was spraying lacquer, especially a custom job where many coats were involved I'd spray the primer base coat and let it sit 2 to 3 weeks for it to finish drying and stabilizing before going on to the next coat.

Typically body panels were made of steel similar to today. When the temperature changes steel expands at a certain rate. Lacquer is a hard paint compared to enamel and although it does expand it does not expand at the same rate as the steel sub-straight. A better example would be; if the steel expands 1" and the lacquer expands 1/2" the lacquer splits or cracks. It nothng more than a tug of war between the two and steel is always the winner.

Depending on the pains thickness, cracking, and your goal, you could try wet sanding and feather the paint out from the defect 5 or 6 inches so that the change in paint thickness is not noticeable.

 

[BillH]

Welcome Aboard Bill!!

Your Mustang is definitely worth any effort you need to put in.

Back in the day when Lacquer was widely used it was very common to see 18 coats of this and 30 coats of that. Because Lacquer was very easy to work with and just about anyone with a compressor and spray gun could shoot it most did. It's very common to see older lacquer finishes checked or cracked and the condition varies in degree. I've seen it so bad that the paint had to be entirely stripped and start over.

The checking and cracking you see is caused by the paints film thickness, too thick, or put on too heavy, and the difference in it's expansion rate compared to the sub-straight. Another thing that causes this condition is not waiting long enough between coats before applying the next. Lacquer also continues to dry and shrink for a long time. Typically when I was spraying lacquer, especially a custom job where many coats were involved I'd spray the primer base coat and let it sit 2 to 3 weeks for it to finish drying and stabilizing before going on to the next coat.

Typically body panels were made of steel similar to today. When the temperature changes steel expands at a certain rate. Lacquer is a hard paint compared to enamel and although it does expand it does not expand at the same rate as the steel sub-straight. A better example would be; if the steel expands 1" and the lacquer expands 1/2" the lacquer splits or cracks. It nothng more than a tug of war between the two and steel is always the winner.

Depending on the pains thickness, cracking, and your goal, you could try wet sanding and feather the paint out from the defect 5 or 6 inches so that the change in paint thickness is not noticeable.

Thanks for responding, There are a couple of places where the lacquer is cracked besides the hood. (Typically, hoods on these cars are a no-win situation, being all glass they are very fragile. There were, I think 4 separate hoods for the early cars with the earliest car having the worst quality ones. This car is #26 so it got one of those.) What I am wondering is if I can sand out the cracks (going to bare metal, of course) and spot in the panels. I have 2 1/2 quarts of the paint that was used when it was originally painted. That's a long way off though.

 

[BillH]

I don't have access to an electronic paint thickness tester but I have a friend who has one of those magnetic pencil type. (Yea, I know) Using that, the paint on my car appears is 5 to 6mil thick including the "underlayment". The stripes are about 2 mil thicker. I have a fiberglass valance I recently took off the car that was on the car when it was painted. I think that unit is eligable for a little practice. Film at 11.....

 

[BillH]

I picked up a Griot 6" orbital Sunday at the Mustang show in Seattle. (Very good price). I have just about everything I need in the way of tools and supplies collected, I was wondering how I should proceed with this project. Color sand the whole car before using the buffers, or do it a panel at a time. Roof, deck lid, hood, fenders, doors, rear quarter.
Thanks.

 

[Tiffanator]

I'm far from being a pro, but my advice would be to do a test spot to make sure that the process is going to work. It would be quite heartbreaking to sand down the entire car only to find that you either can't get the sanding scratches out or sanded too far into the paint. Pick an out of the way spot to do a quick test with your whole process. That way you can get an idea of the amount of work and also deal with any kinks in the plan.

 

[BillH]

I recently removed the fiberglass front valance panel from the front of the car and replaced it with the stock sheet metal and bumper. Since it’s not going back on the car, I have been using this piece to practice on. On one hand, it’s astounding how much gloss there is under all that orange peel. If I can resurrect the finish on the rest of the car to just look close, this project will be a success. On the other hand it’s scary just how easy it is to go through. I plan on putting the car on stands and starting low on the body.
What should I be using for wet sanding backing pads? I have some soft 3M and one with beveled edges.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Sorry for the late reply, I've been out of state on a TV project since last monday...

What it's like behind the scenes of a TV show with Dave Bowman and Sam Memmolo of Motorhead Garage!

I was wondering how I should proceed with this project. Color sand the whole car before using the buffers, or do it a panel at a time. Roof, deck lid, hood, fenders, doors, rear quarter.
Thanks.

Like Tiffanator posted, do a TEST SPOT first.

Sand about a 1 foot square area and finish out to your highest grit and then remove your sanding marks. Make sure you can remove your sanding marks to your satisfaction with your tool of choice, buffing pads and compounds and polishes.

I always hope the sanding marks buff out as easy as a cool summer breeze... I've come across paint so hard that it could not be buffed. By this I mean after sanding the paint, the sanding marks could not be removed and the car had to be repainted since the painter sanded the entire car before doing a test spot.

Lacquer is soft and even though white pigment will tend to make the entire matrix of paint harder, it should and hopefully be easy to compound out your sanding marks.

What should I be using for wet sanding backing pads? I have some soft 3M and one with beveled edges.

Usually for removing orange peel when sanding by hand you want a stiff to medium backing pad, the soft gushy pads will work but the idea is to knock off the tops of all the high points and NOT sand the low areas or valleys until after the tops of knocked down flat. A soft backing pad will tend to sand lower depressions under pressure because it is more pliable or flexible.

Visit your local PBE store and see what they have to offer, let them know what you're looking for as PBE stores are not always the best an restocking the shelves out front.

Meguiar's makes a basic flat backing pad that fits most half sleeves of sanding papers... here's a how-to article with pictures and part numbers...


Basic Hand Sanding Techniques

Lots more pictures in the above linked to thread)

Also, be sure to read through some of the below articles that apply to your project, like the Rule of Thumb and Flight or Fight Method...


Wet-Sanding
Damp-Sanding Tools, Tips and Techniques by Mike Phillips
Meguiar's 6" Unigrit Sanding and Finishing Discs
Wet-sanding, Color-sanding & Damp-sanding
The difference between 3M's Hookit and Hookit II Hook-N-Loop Interface Systems
List of Sanding Discs at Autogeek.net
The Rule of Thumb
If it has paint... it gets polished...
RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips
Wet-sanding - Fresh Paint vs Factory Paint
Basic Hand Sanding Techniques
Removing Orange Peel & Sanding Marks with the Griot's ROP and the Wolfgang Twins
How long will a half sheet of wet/dry sandpaper last before it stops cutting and you need to replace it?
Fight or Flight Method for Gaging Surface Temperature



Sure wish I lived closer, this would be a fun project. I have my hand full tomorrow removing Tracers and Swirls out of this bad boy...


Autogeek's "Extreme Makeover" Class - 32 Ford Highboy - Saturday July 24th

Rick's 1932 Ford Highboy

 

[BillH]

Mike, not making a trip to Oregon any time soon?
I plan on putting the car up on stands and working on an area low on the rear quarter to start. I ended up with a bottle of M-85 and M-105 and I was wondering what the difference is, besides accoding to the label, the M-105 is coarser but you can use it by hand. I alwo have M-83 and Griot's Machine Polish #3. I can experiment, but which one would you use? Does starting wet sanding with 3000 grit make any sense? Seems that that would remove the least amount of paint but it would be a ton of work. I have 2, 2500 and 3K.

My idea on how to proceed:
1 After cleaning the panel, go over it with diluted Dawn to remove any wax. Clay Bar.
2 Mask off the panel. Door lines and high points.
3 Wet sand.
4 Use the rotary with a wool pad. (I have an old Snap-On rotary with a new Snap-On wool pad.) M105? M-85?
5 Use the Griot orbital I just bought. Griot polishing pad and M-83 or Griot #3?
6 Remove the tape, polish the high points by hand.
7 If there is any paint on the car by now, ready for wax?

I hope this doesn't sound too dumb, Maybe I should just pack up the car and ship it to Jason Killmer. (Met him Sunday at the Mustang show in Bell town)

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

4 Use the rotary with a wool pad. (I have an old Snap-On rotary with a new Snap-On wool pad.) M105? M-85?

Do yourself a favor and get a new, high quality wool cutting pad, we offer a number of brands in our store. Then use it with the M105

I hope this doesn't sound too dumb, Maybe I should just pack up the car and ship it to Jason Killmer. (Met him Sunday at the Mustang show in Bell town)

I know Jason Killmer and he's a top notch detailer, he's the real deal, if you can get him to polish out your car you would be guaranteed your car's finish will be taken to its maximum potential. Jason was out here for our DetailFest this year and we had a chance to meet and have actually become good friends.

I've met a lot of Pro Detailers proficient with the rotary buffer as well as other tools and he's good...

On my left is Jason Killmer an award winning detailer from Washington and associate with Griot's Garage and on my right is Rich Evans our special guest and the talent behind HuntingtonBeachBodyworks.com


Me out to Oregon?
Probably not for a while but I'm due for a trip... last time I was in Oregon I was at a family reunion and searching for my Sanger Drag Boat, I sure would like to find it and if the hull hasn't been destroyed I'd like to buy it back.


1970 Sanger V-Drive Drag Boat - 402 BBC - 18% Overdrive - 11" x 17" Prop