Light swirls after M105?

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Bill220

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I've just started my first detail with my new PC7424XP. There were some some light swirls on the hood and a couple of scuffs from some idiot sitting on it. I hit it with M105 and a Tangerine LC pad. I then wiped the hood down with an 11% IPA solution to check the results. The scuffs came out came out completely but I still see some very, very light swirls. I really have to look for them (turned off all my overhead lights and used an LED light to check). Should I go over it again with the 105 or go to the 205 with a White pad? I don't want to keep taking clear coat off if the 205 will knock out the remaining swirls.

Thank you!
 
Its hard to tell whether what you are describing is micromarring or not completely eliminating the swirls. M105 will leave some micromarring, which are very fine light swirls. This is why is necessary to follow up with M205.

I am not sure its neccesary to follow M105 with an IPA wipedown, or even beneficial, especially if being followed by M205. I think I have read somewhere before that there are oils and other ingredients in polishes and compounds that get removed with an IPA wipedown which leads to adversely effecting the results, especially among products within the same line. I have never used an IPA wipedown. I could be wrong.
 
Chances are, you will have the level of swirl and paint hardness throughout the rest of the vehicle. Maybe move to the roof and do some test spots. If the orange is not effective with the M105, move to the yellow with the M105 and the M205 with the orange. The number of section passes is a critical on each element in the process as well. The combination is what you have to play with. 6 passes with yellow and M105 followed by 4 passes with orange and M205. You get the idea.
 
cgreen1120 said:
You did the entire hood or just a test spot?
Click to expand...

I did the entire hood.

amnbcn said:
I might try 205 with the tangerine pad instead of the white one. That way you are reducing abrasiveness but keeping the cut. There was a recent thread about this same combo that gave some good info.

Check here: M205 via LC orange/gray - pics - - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum
Click to expand...

Thank you, I'll check out the thread.

cgreen1120 said:
Chances are, you will have the level of swirl and paint hardness throughout the rest of the vehicle. Maybe move to the roof and do some test spots. If the orange is not effective with the M105, move to the yellow with the M105 and the M205 with the orange. The number of section passes is a critical on each element in the process as well. The combination is what you have to play with. 6 passes with yellow and M105 followed by 4 passes with orange and M205. You get the idea.
Click to expand...

The paint on the car is only a few months old and didn't have a lot of swirls to begin with. I'll do the roof and see how it compares to the hood.

Thanks everyone.
 
I suggest doing the 205 finishing passes and then taking the car out to natural daylight where you'll actually be enjoying the finish of the car. This is what matters. I learned early on that chasing defects under unnatural light is a sure fire way to remove more clear than necessary.
 
Keep in mind M105 is an aggressive compound... not a finishing polish.

Clear coat paints are scratch-sensitive, that is they scratch easily. If M105 is leaving behind micro-marring that can be normal as you follow up the aggressive process with a less aggressive process to reach your final goal.

You can troubleshoot easily enough, place a tape-line down on the hood and on one side of the tape-line re-buff using a less aggressive pad and product and then inspect and compare the results to the side that you only used M105 on.

IF the micro-marring is gone then you have a recipe for success and you know the M105 was in fact leaving the micro-marring. If the micro-marring remains then it could be that it's not micro-marring but swirls and scratches that you didn't remove in the first place or your car's paint is really soft and the follow-up pad and polish are also micro-marring.


I strongly encourage everyone to do a Test Spot before buffing out an entire car or even an entire panel.


How To Do a Test Spot
(and why it's so important)



I have a LOT of articles on this topic as well as others here,

Articles


Here's two more from my list... these have pictures to help you identify the defects...


The difference between Rotary Buffer Swirls, Cobweb Swirls and Micro-Marring

Tracers Tracers - RIDS - Pigtails - Cobweb Swirls - Rotary Buffer Swirls - Holograms - Water Spots - Bird Drooping Etchings - Micro-Marring




:)
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
You can troubleshoot easily enough, place a tape-line down on the hood and on one side of the tape-line re-buff using a less aggressive pad and product and then inspect and compare the results to the side that you only used M105 on.

IF the micro-marring is gone then you have a recipe for success and you know the M105 was in fact leaving the micro-marring. If the micro-marring remains then it could be that it's not micro-marring but swirls and scratches that you didn't remove in the first place or your car's paint is really soft and the follow-up pad and polish are also micro-marring.


I strongly encourage everyone to do a Test Spot before buffing out an entire car or even an entire panel.


How To Do a Test Spot
(and why it's so important)
Click to expand...

+100:dblthumb2:

If the roof or trunk still has the original problem it's easy enough to check, a roll of 3M tape is your best friend! ;) Tape off your test spots, take notes with a pen and paper, and work on what works for *your* paint. Might be the same product with a different pad combo, or as simple as the same product/pad combo with a different number of section passes.
 
cardaddy said:
+100:dblthumb2:

If the roof or trunk still has the original problem it's easy enough to check, a roll of 3M tape is your best friend! ;) Tape off your test spots, take notes with a pen and paper, and work on what works for *your* paint. Might be the same product with a different pad combo, or as simple as the same product/pad combo with a different number of section passes.
Click to expand...

^^^ Agree :)
 
tuscarora dave said:
I suggest doing the 205 finishing passes and then taking the car out to natural daylight where you'll actually be enjoying the finish of the car. This is what matters. I learned early on that chasing defects under unnatural light is a sure fire way to remove more clear than necessary.
Click to expand...

Great idea, I'll give this a try. I buffed the roof and trunk lid and they came out pretty good. There are a couple of scratches on the roof that wouldn't come out, despite buffing them twice. I can't feel them with my fingernail but I don't want to keep buffing the area. They are extremely hard to notice under fluorescent light so I figure they won't be noticeable in natural daylight.

Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Keep in mind M105 is an aggressive compound... not a finishing polish.

Clear coat paints are scratch-sensitive, that is they scratch easily. If M105 is leaving behind micro-marring that can be normal as you follow up the aggressive process with a less aggressive process to reach your final goal.

You can troubleshoot easily enough, place a tape-line down on the hood and on one side of the tape-line re-buff using a less aggressive pad and product and then inspect and compare the results to the side that you only used M105 on.

IF the micro-marring is gone then you have a recipe for success and you know the M105 was in fact leaving the micro-marring. If the micro-marring remains then it could be that it's not micro-marring but swirls and scratches that you didn't remove in the first place or your car's paint is really soft and the follow-up pad and polish are also micro-marring.


I strongly encourage everyone to do a Test Spot before buffing out an entire car or even an entire panel.


How To Do a Test Spot
(and why it's so important)



I have a LOT of articles on this topic as well as others here,

Articles


Here's two more from my list... these have pictures to help you identify the defects...


The difference between Rotary Buffer Swirls, Cobweb Swirls and Micro-Marring

Tracers Tracers - RIDS - Pigtails - Cobweb Swirls - Rotary Buffer Swirls - Holograms - Water Spots - Bird Drooping Etchings - Micro-Marring




:)
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike! I have been studying your articles and videos but can't remember it all. I did do various test spots and they all came out pretty much the same.

On the hood I used an 11% IPA/distilled water solution and it did dull the shine some compared to the roof and trunk lid. Should I not use the IPA/Water at all? My plan is to go to 205, Blacklight, Lava, then V7 and wanted to be sure that there are no oils left on the paint so that the Blacklight will seal properly.

cardaddy said:
+100:dblthumb2:

If the roof or trunk still has the original problem it's easy enough to check, a roll of 3M tape is your best friend! ;) Tape off your test spots, take notes with a pen and paper, and work on what works for *your* paint. Might be the same product with a different pad combo, or as simple as the same product/pad combo with a different number of section passes.
Click to expand...

I like the idea of using a pen and paper. I hadn't considered that. Thank you.
 
Bill220 said:
Thanks Mike! I have been studying your articles and videos but can't remember it all.
Click to expand...

Ha ha.... I can't remember it all either... that's why I write everything down... :laughing:


Bill220 said:
On the hood I used an 11% IPA/distilled water solution and it did dull the shine some compared to the roof and trunk lid. Should I not use the IPA/Water at all?

My plan is to go to 205, Blacklight, Lava, then V7 and wanted to be sure that there are no oils left on the paint so that the Blacklight will seal properly.
Click to expand...


Unless the manufacturer of a product states you must strip the paint before applying their product I don't.

See what I wrote here years ago on this topic...


Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding


:)
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
Ha ha.... I can't remember it all either... that's why I write everything down... :laughing:

I've been cutting and pasting things I need to remember into Word docs and printing them so that I have reference material at my fingertips when I'm in the garage.



Unless the manufacturer of a product states you must strip the paint before applying their product I don't.

See what I wrote here years ago on this topic...


Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding


:)

I couldn't find anything stating that CG Blacklight requires chemical stripping so I won't do it.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mike, I really appreciate the advice.
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
No problemo...

It's a good idea to have a little balance between washing and waxing your car and turning something very simple into rocket science.



:D
Click to expand...


I tend to complicate things to the point where what I'm doing becomes frustrating and unenjoyable. The car I'm working on (2009 Mustang Bullitt Edition) is primarily a sunny day car and I'm a fanatic about keeping it looking nice.
 
Bill220 said:
I like the idea of using a pen and paper. I hadn't considered that. Thank you.
Click to expand...

I had to come up with that one from trying to keep up with the vast amount of knowledge from Mike. ;) Well that, and the ol' gray matter isn't what it used to be, meaning I might just forget from one test to another what I've done. :rolleyes:

Was working on my wife's hood last night that is severely etched / pitted from water and and all around abuse. Set aside some test spots for 4 and 8 section passes, orange CCS, Megs UC. Then ended up getting much better results from 6 with a yellow pad. Go figure.... (but at least I knew what was what).
 
Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
No problemo...

It's a good idea to have a little balance between washing and waxing your car and turning something very simple into rocket science.



:D
Click to expand...

Mike,

I had considered, after correction, glazing with Meg's 7, then sealing with WG Sealant 3.0, and topping with Souverin. Is this overkill? Would this issue create bonding issues? I did read your columns with regard to the topic, but I suppose I was looking for a specific answer to this scenario. Thanks
 
thrownout27 said:
Mike,

I had considered,

  1. after correction,
  2. glazing with Meg's 7,
  3. then sealing with WG Sealant 3.0,
  4. and topping with Souveran.
Is this overkill?
Click to expand...


No, I think it's the least you can do.


Just joking... :cheers:



Looks like from this thread you're working on a 2012 Doge Charge with water spots?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...phillips/58899-dodge-charger-water-spots.html


If so, then I would suggest after your last correction and polishing steps, wipe the paint clean using a soft microfiber towel and then applying the Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0.

The next day if you want you could top this with the Pinnacle Souveran.


I use to top sealants with waxes a long time ago, now I'm more in the camp of doing a great job of applying one product and call it good till the next detailing session.




thrownout27 said:
Would this issue create bonding issues? I did read your columns with regard to the topic, but I suppose I was looking for a specific answer to this scenario.

Thanks
Click to expand...


The topic of "bonding" is a very emotional topic on car detailing discussion forums and I've written a lot on the topic. Here's my most recent article on the topic of bonding,

Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding



The nutshell version goes like this,

Mike Phillips said:
Follow the Manufacturer's Recommendations
The first and primary consideration goes to the manufactures recommendations. If the manufacturer of a wax or paint sealant officially recommends that the surface of the paint must be stripped clean before their product can properly bond to the paint, then you should follow the recommendations of the manufacturer as they know their products best.

If the manufacturer does not specifically recommend that a painted surface needs to be stripped clean, then whatever recommendations they do provide should be followed as they know their products best.

To my knowledge, there are only a few manufacturers in the wax and paint sealant business that recommend that the surface of automotive paint be surgically clean and bare before their products can be applied. Besides these few companies, most manufacturers either recommend to apply their wax and/or paint sealant to the paint after first using their surface prep products which can include, compounds, polishes, paint cleaners and pre-wax cleaners. And of course, sometimes there are no specific recommendations.
Click to expand...


My good friend, Tom aka Mosca as he's known on detailing discussion forums, once posted,


Mosca said:
I've never walked out into a garage only to find out that overnight the wax or paint sealant I applied slipped off the car's paint and piled-up on the floor surrounding the car because it didn't bond or stick to the paint.
Click to expand...


I would have to agree with Tom.


Besides all of the above... most of us, not all of us but probably most of us, do something to the paint on our pride and joy before the point in time comes that whatever was previously applied is completely worn off.

It's actually a good idea to practice Preventative Maintenance and just like you change the oil in your car's engine before it no longer provides any lubricating qualities, change or refresh your car's finish by re-applying your favorite wax or paint sealant before it stops providing any beauty and protection qualities.


:)
 
Mike and everyone, I appreciate the time in helping me.

Mike.Phillips@Autogeek said:
No, I think it's the least you can do.


Just joking... :cheers:



Looks like from this thread you're working on a 2012 Doge Charge with water spots?

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...phillips/58899-dodge-charger-water-spots.html


If so, then I would suggest after your last correction and polishing steps, wipe the paint clean using a soft microfiber towel and then applying the Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0.

The next day if you want you could top this with the Pinnacle Souveran.


I use to top sealants with waxes a long time ago, now I'm more in the camp of doing a great job of applying one product and call it good till the next detailing session.







The topic of "bonding" is a very emotional topic on car detailing discussion forums and I've written a lot on the topic. Here's my most recent article on the topic of bonding,

Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding



The nutshell version goes like this,




My good friend, Tom aka Mosca as he's known on detailing discussion forums, once posted,





I would have to agree with Tom.


Besides all of the above... most of us, not all of us but probably most of us, do something to the paint on our pride and joy before the point in time comes that whatever was previously applied is completely worn off.

It's actually a good idea to practice Preventative Maintenance and just like you change the oil in your car's engine before it no longer provides any lubricating qualities, change or refresh your car's finish by re-applying your favorite wax or paint sealant before it stops providing any beauty and protection qualities.


:)
Click to expand...
 
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