Low dusting performance brake pads.

[ScottB]

some brakes , like six piston calipers, and larger rotors will help to stop a car faster but does it equate to price. What I will tell you from past Corvette, I had a high dollar Baer Eradispeed set on car and it worked no better than a set of Brembo's I put on when the other warped. Baer did replace them however and I was able to recover most of their costs thru resale. I left the Brembo blanks on, which were considerably cheaper.

The best bang for my buck in brakes was adding the stainless steel lines. This reduced fade a bit as lines cannot hold heat and expand. I ran ceramic pads from Akenbono (SP?) and never had a issue.

 

[FMINUS]

Have you guys tested the braking distance on the track? From my experience, just because a car bucks earlier from braking does not mean it reduces the braking distance.

SS lines are only needed on the track in my opinion. (But then again, most of my cars are pretty well setup even at stock)

 

[Thejoyofdriving]

After spending $8000 for a Brembo Indy kit on my NSX, I realized that it didnt stop the car any faster. Its the tires that do it.

The kits only reduce brake fading under track conditions. Under street driving conditions, OEM is MORE than enough, especially on Bimmers.

I am going to have to disagree with you a bit on this one. after market pads offer more initial bite and less compression which can result in a faster stopping distance. if your brakes are 1/10 of a second more responsive that can stop your car 8ft shorter at 60mph. steel lines that reduce swelling can help with faster brakes, also pads with higher initial bite and lower compression.

 

[FMINUS]

I am going to have to disagree with you a bit on this one. after market pads offer more initial bite and less compression which can result in a faster stopping distance. if your brakes are 1/10 of a second more responsive that can stop your car 8ft shorter at 60mph. steel lines that reduce swelling can help with faster brakes, also pads with higher initial bite and lower compression.

Hmm... theres nothing new there. Ok do what you want, I dont know why you post anyways, just want to argue about everything.

But I guess 325 owners w auto trannys are track enthusiasts who know it all.

 

[Thejoyofdriving]

Hmm... theres nothing new there. Ok do what you want, I dont know why you post anyways, just want to argue about everything.

But I guess 325 owners w auto trannys are track enthusiasts who know it all.

I never said i know it all...... im just looking at this from a physics stand point. 60mph= 88fps, a 0.1 second quicker application of the brakes ends up giving you a 8ft shorter stopping distance. do you disagree with what i said? and you know that i would take a M over my 325 any day , the only reason i didnt get one is because of the money, i have to start somewhere. I would be at the track all day long if i could fit in my car with a helmet on, you should know that.

 

[supercharged]

I never said i know it all...... im just looking at this from a physics stand point. 60mph= 88fps, a 0.1 second quicker application of the brakes ends up giving you a 8ft shorter stopping distance. do you disagree with what i said? and you know that i would take a M over my 325 any day , the only reason i didnt get one is because of the money, i have to start somewhere. I would be at the track all day long if i could fit in my car with a helmet on, you should know that.

Why do you need to stop so fast anyway? Is it a safety concern, or are you just testing how fast you can stop?

Back to the topic it is tires that do the stopping, that's why it's extremely important to get "AA" traction. Larger brake rotors with 4 or even 8 piston calipers will bring your car to a faster stop, you won't have it with single piston calipers. As far as rotors heating up - change them to slotted or even better - drilled rotors (notice that all high performance cars have drilled rotors).

Good luck.

 

[wytstang]

Why do you need to stop so fast anyway? Is it a safety concern, or are you just testing how fast you can stop?

Back to the topic it is tires that do the stopping, that's why it's extremely important to get "AA" traction. Larger brake rotors with 4 or even 8 piston calipers will bring your car to a faster stop, you won't have it with single piston calipers. As far as rotors heating up - change them to slotted or even better - drilled rotors (notice that all high performance cars have drilled rotors).

Good luck.

Definatly going to have to disagree about drilled rotors being better (or worth it). Drilled rotors are notorious have stress cracks going from hole to hole.\

After spending $8000 for a Brembo Indy kit on my NSX, I realized that it didnt stop the car any faster. Its the tires that do it.

What pads were used? Having a brake system used with pads that only work well when hot is just not going to perform well on the streets.

 

[FMINUS]

Definatly going to have to disagree about drilled rotors being better (or worth it). Drilled rotors are notorious have stress cracks going from hole to hole.\

What pads were used? Having a brake system used with pads that only work well when hot is just not going to perform well on the streets.

Used both:

Carbotech Panther Plus and Hawk HPS Pads.

Did a 0-100-0 test with BOTH Pads and OEM. Thats why I made the comment above.

This will be my last post on the topic, I have made a mental note to not post in JOYs threads anymore. No disrespect to anyone else :cheers:

 

[Thejoyofdriving]

Used both:

I have made a mental note to not post in JOYs threads anymore.

What ever # dont lie.....also remember how you said changing my sway bars wont do anything and its a waste of money when in fact, almost everybody agrees that it is the best bang for the buck suspension upgrade, it makes a huge difference in body roll and takes off the factory induced under steer, you seem to have a lot of experice but lately your coments have been off and sometimes untrue.....And supercharged...all of my tires are AA, 225 all 4 corners, Eagle F1s, i agree that tires play the most important role, but i cant upgrade mine anymore with out spending big bucks, i would like to run 275 all 4 corners but they would def. rub, the biggest i could fit in the front is probably ~240ish if even that. I am thinking of making my next tires 30mm high insteed of 45mm to help wit the rolling, but i dont want to f up my rims.

 

[Thejoyofdriving]

Why do you need to stop so fast anyway? Is it a safety concern, or are you just testing how fast you can stop?

Well im kinda part of a car club, it made up of me and some of my friends, they all have subies, they can all beat me 0-60 and it kinda suck having the slowest car.so since i will never beat them in HP i am trying to beat them in braking and handeling. Its really for bragging rights, but I really like it as a safety improvement. And who doesn't want good brakes ???!!!!

 

[Strokin04]

Why not just upgrade your bimmer to a new M3 and call it done?

 

[Thejoyofdriving]

Why not just upgrade your bimmer to a new M3 and call it done?

I wish.....not only would insurance go even higher but im missing the extra 30k. The secong the insurace compant sees the letter M they get crazy, especialy with a 17 year old crazy guy behind the wheel. If i would upgrade to anything it would prob be the 135i.

 

[FMINUS]

What ever # dont lie.....also remember how you said changing my sway bars wont do anything and its a waste of money when in fact, almost everybody agrees that it is the best bang for the buck suspension upgrade, it makes a huge difference in body roll and takes off the factory induced under steer, you seem to have a lot of experice but lately your coments have been off and sometimes untrue.....And supercharged...all of my tires are AA, 225 all 4 corners, Eagle F1s, i agree that tires play the most important role, but i cant upgrade mine anymore with out spending big bucks, i would like to run 275 all 4 corners but they would def. rub, the biggest i could fit in the front is probably ~240ish if even that. I am thinking of making my next tires 30mm high insteed of 45mm to help wit the rolling, but i dont want to f up my rims.

Damn, I hate it when I am forced to post after saying its my last post...

What I post I post from experience. Unlike some people (you mainly) who say "you need to use this product.... I recommend this product.... but Ive never used it before". I dont recommend things on hearsay, or just look at posted results or statisics alone and suggest it to other people.

You asked if you should change your sway bars, I told you skip the sway bars and change the suspension setup and upgrade the tires. When modding/tuning your car, certain things make a BIG difference while others make very small differences or none at all. I have learned this through spending tons of money. Some mods actually have an adverse effect on your performance.

If you really get into the racing scene you will learn that most mods are a waste of money are so miniscule in terms in increased performance that the only reason anyone would buy them is because they have already have every piece of performance mod possible and they HAVE to have the part, looks, or bragging rights.

Like I said go ahead and get ur pads, swaybars, smoked out tail lights and shift knob. Then take it to the track and test out the braking from 60-0 and report ur results here.

Again, the only gains I got from the brake upgrade is the elimination of brake fade. The 8K brake kit completley eliminated any fading. I have also used Axxis pads on the M3. Less dusting, more squeeling, uneven rotor wear, and no increased stopping distance.

Now leave me alone and stop IMing and PMing me.

 

[Surfer]

]
If you really get into the racing scene you will learn that most mods are a waste of money

People ask me and I tell them the best mod is driving school

 

[blk45]

This is not meant to be argumentative, so please do not try to turn it into that.

Can gains be had by switching brake pads? Yes. Is it common or guaranteed? Absolutely not. At least not in cars that were designed properly. Most cars that have marginal braking systems are manufactured by the "bean counting" companies. BMW is not one of those companies. That is why they are more expensive than a lot of other cars. I have seen MANY tuner mags (all different brands) that have conducted big brake conversions on cars and tested them in a controlled enviroment with accurate equipment. Results? Not only did some not improve, but they were actually worse than the OEM! There have been some exceptions, but more so than not, they didn't offer any improvement, except for fade resistance, as FMINUS stated. For a track car, these are a necessity. Daily driver, hardly. Big brake kits offer increased fade resistance, great looks and a much lighter wallet. Most OEM braking systems provide more than enough clamping power to lock up the rotor/activate the ABS, at which point you are better off upgrading your tires for more grip to maximize the braking ability, also stated by FMINUS. This will also provide increased performance in other depts as well. The braking system on automobiles, just like the other systems (suspension, engine) is a balanced group of parts that are designed to work together. When you "upgrade" only a few components, you may see a slight improvement, but usually you don't or you cause more harm than good. That is the reason for bigger master cyl., proportioning valves, etc. so that you can match the system as a whole to perform to it's full potential. However, gains can be had. I've had Mustangs and Cobras over the years with upgraded braking systems. Results? The Mustangs benefited from the upgrades because they were very inadequate from Ford. The Cobras? Nope. Just better fade resistance, because they were designed with performance in mind, not how many pennies can we save. The OEM brakes on my 745? Amazing for a luxury sedan. They of course dusted like crazy and made my wheels black in two days. That goes hand in hand with performance, as I mentioned in an earlier post. Being that I didn't want to wash the wheels every two days, I tried some aftermarket "low dust" pads that were supposed to be equal or superior to the OEMs in performance. Mintex Red Box and Axxis Deluxe pads. Both were drastically superior in the dusting dept., but neither perform as well as the OEM. That's a trade off that I'm willing to make on a luxury car.

Take it with a grain of salt, just stating some facts, not opinion.

 

[Thejoyofdriving]

FMINUS, your a cool guy and i dont dislike you. Im part of a forum called 46fanatics, there are thousands of people on there that have 325ci just like mine, and they get sway bars, every single one has stated a major improvement in body roll and making the car neutral. This goes for the 325, 328, and 330. Im not sure if you are already part of this forum but you should take a look. So if every single person with the exact same cars as mine and no other suspension mods get sway bars and all notice a major improvement then i will too. I agree with every one that improving tires is by far the best upgrade, as i said i have already upgraded mine and any further improvements could reach 600-1000$, and yes Surfer driving school is also very important, there is no point in making your car better if you cant control or use it. I feel i am starting to be able to push the limits on my car and thus i need to upgrade. Im not sure what compound the OEM brakes are but i feel that the HPS ferro carbon compound might give me more of an initial bite. I will search the forums on 46fanatics and post my findings. And yes sometimes i do recomend products with out having used them, but i make sure i state that i have never used the product and i do this because i am trying to help. If every one used product "X" for polishing and everyone thought it was the best but i have never used it and some one comes along and askes what is the best product for polishing i would say " Most people use product "X", i have never used it but everyone seem to like it." I dont think there is anything wrong in doing this. FMINUS don't stop posting in my threads....I enjoy the discussions.

 

[FMINUS]

This is not meant to be argumentative, so please do not try to turn it into that.

Can gains be had by switching brake pads? Yes. Is it common or guaranteed? Absolutely not. At least not in cars that were designed properly. Most cars that have marginal braking systems are manufactured by the "bean counting" companies. BMW is not one of those companies. That is why they are more expensive than a lot of other cars. I have seen MANY tuner mags (all different brands) that have conducted big brake conversions on cars and tested them in a controlled enviroment with accurate equipment. Results? Not only did some not improve, but they were actually worse than the OEM! There have been some exceptions, but more so than not, they didn't offer any improvement, except for fade resistance, as FMINUS stated. For a track car, these are a necessity. Daily driver, hardly. Big brake kits offer increased fade resistance, great looks and a much lighter wallet. Most OEM braking systems provide more than enough clamping power to lock up the rotor/activate the ABS, at which point you are better off upgrading your tires for more grip to maximize the braking ability, also stated by FMINUS. This will also provide increased performance in other depts as well. The braking system on automobiles, just like the other systems (suspension, engine) is a balanced group of parts that are designed to work together. When you "upgrade" only a few components, you may see a slight improvement, but usually you don't or you cause more harm than good. That is the reason for bigger master cyl., proportioning valves, etc. so that you can match the system as a whole to perform to it's full potential. However, gains can be had. I've had Mustangs and Cobras over the years with upgraded braking systems. Results? The Mustangs benefited from the upgrades because they were very inadequate from Ford. The Cobras? Nope. Just better fade resistance, because they were designed with performance in mind, not how many pennies can we save. The OEM brakes on my 745? Amazing for a luxury sedan. They of course dusted like crazy and made my wheels black in two days. That goes hand in hand with performance, as I mentioned in an earlier post. Being that I didn't want to wash the wheels every two days, I tried some aftermarket "low dust" pads that were supposed to be equal or superior to the OEMs in performance. Mintex Red Box and Axxis Deluxe pads. Both were drastically superior in the dusting dept., but neither perform as well as the OEM. That's a trade off that I'm willing to make on a luxury car.

Take it with a grain of salt, just stating some facts, not opinion.

Can I buy you a beer? :cheers:

 

[supercharged]

Definatly going to have to disagree about drilled rotors being better (or worth it). Drilled rotors are notorious have stress cracks going from hole to hole.\

What pads were used? Having a brake system used with pads that only work well when hot is just not going to perform well on the streets.

I personally never had a car with drilled and/or slotted brake rotors, but those who did an upgrade said that it keeps their rotors cooler, as when brake rotors heat up, it extends the stopping distance.

 

[FMINUS]

I personally never had a car with drilled and/or slotted brake rotors, but those who did an upgrade said that it keeps their rotors cooler, as when brake rotors heat up, it extends the stopping distance.

Thats been a huge debate in the racing world on which is better. Some say drilled rotors crack (Ive seen some on ocassion), Slotted rotors have uneven pad wear, and BOTH altered rotors reduce braking power because of the reduced surface area.

I have driven cars on track with all 3 rotors and I cant really say one has a definate edge over the other. Personally I prefer a larger plain rotor to dissapate heat faster wihtout sacrificing surface area.

And the thing with Mods, and detailing products, is that the MIND has a lot to do with actual results. Which is why I always try a product before recommending it.

We've all heard stories of people claiming thier their new exhausts made "a big difference" only to show WHP losses on the dyno.

 

[FMINUS]

Thats been a huge debate in the racing world on which is better. Some say drilled rotors crack (Ive seen some on ocassion), Slotted rotors have uneven pad wear, and BOTH altered rotors reduce braking power because of the reduced surface area.

I have driven cars on track with all 3 rotors and I cant really say one has a definate edge over the other. Personally I prefer a larger plain rotor to dissapate heat faster wihtout sacrificing surface area.

And the thing with Mods, and detailing products, is that the MIND has a lot to do with actual results. Which is why I always try a product before recommending it.

We've all heard stories of people claiming thier their new exhausts made "a big difference" only to show WHP losses on the dyno.

And btw (I dont have access to the internet as much, Im in Bora Bora on vacation.....) :righton: