LSP stripping

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Unfortunately I think there would always be questions of how well that replicates reality.

Agree. That's always the problem or issue with trying to,

Recreate artificially something that occurs naturally.



But sometimes, all you can do is all you can do...


A person could put a lot of time and energy into getting test cars that are known to have iron contamination naturally.

Or getting test hoods off wrecked cars that are known to have iron contamination naturally but how hard is this going to be? And how much time, work and investment is this going to take?

And all this just to try to find out if we should be washing our cars, then pre-polishing them to remove any wax before decontaminating them with a product like IronX before we polish and wax them.

:laughing:



I'm all for taking detailing to it's maximum potential but at some point... just wash and wax the car...


KISS = Keep it Simple Simon

 

[swanicyouth]

I can tell you what I do to remove LSPs. First, I think its always best to "go over" the paint with something, even if its a fine polish, pure polish, or paint cleaner. Just chemically stripping wax (+/- hybrid) isn't too hard. Stripping soaps, Sonus All in 1, Griots Paint Prep, Eraser, & IPA all work.

None of those have worked for me with certain sealants. If your not correcting paint, I find the following to work well, depending on what your trying to do:

Prima Amigo (light polish / paint cleaner /glaze): very good and easy to use. Very good on a DA and super easy to wipe off.

Poor Boys Pro Polish: (pure polish with minimal or no abrasives, depending who you ask): also works well on a DA. Easy to wipe off as well.

Optimum Finish Polish (light polish): very user friendly light polish. Seems to have polymers in it (per the label and experience). "Dry buffing" isn't an issue. Easy to wipe off if you don't use a lot, use sparingly.

P21S Paint Cleaner: works so-so on DA. Dries fast, so you want to use slow speed to not generate heat.

That's what I do anyway.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Optimum Finish Polish (light polish): very user friendly light polish. Seems to have polymers in it (per the label and experience). "Dry buffing" isn't an issue. Easy to wipe off if you don't use a lot, use sparingly.

I just used mine for the first time recently, really unique (buffing) feel to it, weird, feels so "wet". It's just as weird as the "dry" feeling of Opti-Bond which you expect to be greasy.

 

[FUNX650]

Whilst making things excessively complex is bad, it is important to understand the necessary complexity.
I know it isn't popular on here
but this goes with many things detailing,
whether it is the science of the process/products or the safety data sheets.

^^^I agree wholeheartedly!!^^^

-Even though I've often heard the AGO forum being referred to as an: "Enthusiasts-forum"...
-When it comes to the subject matters that are listed in the above posting:
I become, indeed, enthusiastic!! {Why even one of this forum's members has kindly referred to me as: "The MSDS Fanatic"}

Cheers!

Bob

 

[PiPUK]

Do you have a way to artificially induce iron contamination?

Point being, for your test, how would you know the paint your testing has iron contamination without first testing it by applying a product like IronX but after applying the IronX you will have remove the iron you needed in the paint for your test?

So do you have a way to artificially induce iron contamination?

Yup, it isn't hard to deposit iron on a surface. I am surprised that someone hasn't done it to win one of those competitions for the biggest bleed!

I could do it without as well. I know of a number of vehicles which have not been decontaminated in years. Quick test I can do a test section to show there is bleed and then I can do the test I alluded to. In any case, doing a half and half (protected and unprotected) - the unprotected section will bleed anyway (assuming there is contamination) and the interest would be whether the protected section bled visibly less.

I can tell you what I do to remove LSPs. First, I think its always best to "go over" the paint with something, even if its a fine polish, pure polish, or paint cleaner. Just chemically stripping wax (+/- hybrid) isn't too hard. Stripping soaps, Sonus All in 1, Griots Paint Prep, Eraser, & IPA all work.

None of those have worked for me with certain sealants. If your not correcting paint, I find the following to work well, depending on what your trying to do:

Even with wax I don't find ease. If you read back, you will see results where I tried stripping a spray sealant and it wasn't coming off easily! The issue of surfactants sticking and giving a false impression of stripping is also higher with wax as I would expect there to be a greater affinity to a wax compared to a synthetic layer.

Really nice to have a proper discussion with some really knowledgeable people - the brits are just not up for this sort of chatter!

 

[ski2]

swanicyouth---Are you saying that the Griots Paint Prep does not remove sealants??? Seemed like a simpler method than using something like Squeaky Clean or DP Paint Cleanser.

 

[zerix]

Thinking about switching over to the Detailers Paint Coating and wanted to know if the Detailers Coating Prep Polish would remove my LSP (Optimum Opti-Seal which is 2 months old + Duragloss Aquawax)? I would be using a PC7424XP with a White Lake Country 5.5" Flat Pad.

 

[addysdaddy]

Thinking about switching over to the Detailers Paint Coating and wanted to know if the Detailers Coating Prep Polish would remove my LSP (Optimum Opti-Seal which is 2 months old + Duragloss Aquawax)? I would be using a PC7424XP with a White Lake Country 5.5" Flat Pad.

Hopefully Mike or Nick can speak to this.

 

[zerix]

Hopefully Mike or Nick can speak to this.

I already went ahead and used the prep polish as I stated then applied the Detailer's Paint Coating (2 coats) and the car seems to be looking great. I found the coating to be a bit grabby and flash almost too fast for my taste, I felt like I had to use much more product than I would if I was using Opti-Seal.

 

[aim4squirrels]

Funny, I just found this topic when looking for a definitive way to strip the KSG off my car to prep for a claying and Iron X decontamination before polishing and applying the pinnacle black label surface coating I just bought.

I guess the only definitive answer would be to polish it off. That kind of defeats the purpose of using iron X before claying to decon if the KSG is still present and protecting the iron particles.

That led me to reflect on the entire thread and whether one could definitively state whether a chemical is truly stripping a given LSP.

I thought of a test, but it don't own the correct materials.

If someone owns a set of Transition lens glasses (the ones that turn dark from UV exposure) they could test 2 things:

1. Whether or not any given LSP actually possesses UV Protectant in sufficient quantity to protect the paint.

2. What chemical strippers actually work to remove said protection.

I have a friend that owns a pair. I know for a fact that modern car windows are coated with sufficient protection as his glasses don't change in a vehicle, but do begin to change upon exiting the vehicle. I'm not going to ask him for his glasses as if I can't get the UV protectant off his glasses are ruined, and he'd probably look at me kind of funny for even suggesting it. He doesn't share my love of the process in most ventures.

Applying any product to the lens any taking it into direct sunlight would tell if UV protection claims of products are indeed valid. Likewise, if one finds a product that does indeed hinder UV rays then a test could begin using IPA, Eraser, panel wipes, Dawn, etc. to test the plausibility of it being able to strip that product.

I understand the information gathered would be only for the protectant product in question, but then, if I found out that a particular LSP offered no UV protection, then I'd be less inclined to want to use it.

 

[PiPUK]

We have conceived several such tests. We have access of a Visible/UV spectrometer and sources and we can do transmission and reflection measurements.

The only thing is that it is time consuming and thus expensive and would not actually translate to more sales (the market doesn't actually care, as a whole). Moreover, if we actually did some real measurements on other products, we would be rubbished by the brands behind them on the basis of having bias (which would be right, albeit they would effectively be questioning our honesty!).

I have been doing a bit of work with regards to trying to strip and have made some progress but it is extremely hard to be definitive - the most successful products are surfactant heavy and it can take a whole lot of washing down to actually remove the surfactant film (we had one surfactant film which lasted nearly a week before the underlying LSP started showing through again).

 

[swanicyouth]

We have conceived several such tests. We have access of a Visible/UV spectrometer and sources and we can do transmission and reflection measurements.

The only thing is that it is time consuming and thus expensive and would not actually translate to more sales (the market doesn't actually care, as a whole). Moreover, if we actually did some real measurements on other products, we would be rubbished by the brands behind them on the basis of having bias (which would be right, albeit they would effectively be questioning our honesty!).

I have been doing a bit of work with regards to trying to strip and have made some progress but it is extremely hard to be definitive - the most successful products are surfactant heavy and it can take a whole lot of washing down to actually remove the surfactant film (we had one surfactant film which lasted nearly a week before the underlying LSP started showing through again).

Dunno. I've tried a bunch of surfactant products on carnauba wax. Beading is easily killed. I've tried the same products on PowerLock and WGDGPS - beading remains. Wouldn't this "surfactant film" cover up beading equally on both products??? Same with OptiCoat.

 

[Russ57]

PiPUK, I admire your work. I wish I could say I had the time to read the entire thread but I didn't. So what I'm about to say may have already been brought up. If so I apologize.

I am curious if you have looked outside your field for the answers you seek. Areas such as adhesive bonding and/or painting castings that have mold release agents on them could prove useful.

Now don't get me wrong. I know we are dealing with paint on cars. I doubt many owners would be happy to have their car returned to them sand blasted and chemically etched I suppose a Delorean might look nice glass beaded though....LOL!

 

[weekendwarrior]

Sounds good....now I just need to obtain a car that isn't coated with Opti-Coat to test it on!


Thanks for the reply!

I have a car with sealants applied, over the summer, which is undergoing a winter of approx 8-10 touchless car washes. How do you want me to test in the spring?

Hood had duragloss 111 after polish, side panels power lock, roof just spray sealant in October. I was guessing it would be all gone by April...parked outside 24/7 northeast PA winter...have Eraser and Paint Prep as well as IPA I could mix...

 

[PiPUK]

Dunno. I've tried a bunch of surfactant products on carnauba wax. Beading is easily killed. I've tried the same products on PowerLock and WGDGPS - beading remains. Wouldn't this "surfactant film" cover up beading equally on both products??? Same with OptiCoat.

If all surfactants and all the protecting films were equal, yes. In reality they are definitely not so it is much more complex.

Consider that not all surfactants do the same thing, nor do they do it to the same degree. Just like one surfactant produces more foam than another, different surfactants have different ability to wet surfaces. Moreover, the surfaces themselves vary dramatically. Just consider the behaviour with water. The energetics vary a lot - some are extremely hydrophobic, some slightly hydrophobic, some not very hydrophobic at all. This is not really appreciated in detailing circles - detailers often talk about beading and sheeting and think to call it black and white (hydrophobic and hydrophilic) when in fact it all tends to be shades of grey (beading and the sheeting referred to are both just degrees of hydrophobicity). This extends further again because the behaviour with oils (i.e. the soiling) varies similarly. In fact this latter is important for considering the surfactants because they will behave rather like an oil for this consideration.

The topic is really rather complex and I am just presenting my findings and thoughts. Chemically, talk of simple surfactant stripping of almost any LSP is a difficult one to swallow (especially when people discuss it occurring at levels of ppm of active). Ask yourself, if it was really that easy, why do we have to bother with hot water and scrubbing to get light oils off our dishes? If these surfactants can so quickly dissolve large solid hydrocarbon networks (i.e. wax), surely one would expect a few light oils to almost run away screaming? Translating back into detailing considerations, think polishing oils. These are simple oils like mineral spirits, they are not substantive, they have very limited durability. Yet we have extremely strong solvent blends routinely used to remove them. Even IPA blends are pretty potent. If a touch of Dawn in a bucket is so effective at stripping waxes (which are specifically designed to be durable and detergent resistant), why are we not using that to remove these light duty polishing oils? We are talking about cost savings of 100 to 1000 in favour of 'dawn in a bucket' yet I have never heard of anyone doing it - always with panel wipe or IPA.

 

[ski2]

Other than just washing the car with a surficant based product to remove LSPs (which we now know doesn't seem to work) the easiest method would seem to be Griots Paint Prep since you just spray it on, agitate and rinse it off. However, does it really remove the LSPs?? Has anyone tested this product on both waxes and sealants??

http://www.griotsgarage.com/text/content/prodinfo/videos/html/paint_prep.html

 

[Calendyr]

I confess I did not read the whole thread. 12 pages longs seemed too long for my tired mind (should have been in bed 6 hours ago) LOL

I am in the process of Learning auto body repair and paint. One of the important steps of preparing a pannel for paint is using a wax and grease remover. It's a product that is designed to remover anything on top of the paint/bondo/pannel.

I don't think it can harm the paint, maybe some people with painting skill can comment on that.

Might be the best way to strip wax. I don't know if it would affect sealants. I know it won't touch coatings.

 

[Bunky]

I tried reading this again and wonder why body shops use products like
DuPont PrepSol, 3M Prep Solvent, Wurth Clean Solve, and Klean Strip Prep-All to strip paint when from what I read here IPA should do the same thing.

 

[weekendwarrior]

What I read here is that an IPA won't do the same thing? Unless I missed it.

 

[ski2]

I tried reading this again and wonder why body shops use products like
DuPont PrepSol, 3M Prep Solvent, Wurth Clean Solve, and Klean Strip Prep-All to strip paint when from what I read here IPA should do the same thing.

Post #8 from PiPuk
"Yup, this is me myth busting. I could strip this if I wanted but the point Herr is that a strong alkaline degreaser has failed to strip (but has left a film which could easily confuse someone into thinking so) and IPA (100%) has not only also not stripped it but has in fact succeeded in making it 'good' again."

So the IPA just removed what the detergents left behind and not the LSP.

I'm still interested in the effectiveness of Griots Paint Prep.