m105 and m205 leaving bad hazing and not correcting properly.

[TurboToys]

so anyway, ill get straight to the point and try to leave out the long story.

working on my 1993 toyota supra, i noticed some holograms on the sides of the car in the sun.. checked with my brinkmann i just got and voila, i have tons of holograms i couldnt see with the halogen lights i was using. only visible in the sun and with the xenon dual lights

i was going with m105 on an orange LC pad, priming the pad complete with product, putting 3 pea size dots. spreading over a 1 foot square section as a sort of test spot. and started at 3, spread it out, then turned up to 6, applied enough pressure to slow down the rotation but not completely stop it (kbm method) for 2 passes to remove the scratches and hologramming that had been worked into the paint previously. then 2 passes at medium pressure, and 2 more passes at light pressure while the 105 had become translucent. and wiped off extremely easily with no dried sections (priming the pad properly helps with that a lot apparently, i used to get a ton of dried polish when not priming properly).


then m205 on a gray LC pad. primed it properly, put 3 pea size dots, kbm'd it for 2 complete passes, 2 more passes with medium pressure, and 4 complete passes (1 pass being covering the section entirely once, as described on the back of the 105 and 205 containers) with light pressure to take out the small amounts of hazing.... but even after all of that i still have a lot of hologramming and quite a bit of light scratches present that look like its from wiping product off.... i just cant get a scratch/holo free finish... the best i got was a foggy paint finish.


need some ideas as to why this isnt working, i thought a pc and the 105 205 combo was supposed to be just about the best combo there is right now.

btw the temp when working on it in the garage was around 45-50 in the daytime and maybe colder at night.... didnt turn the garage heater on til later, would cold be causing the polishes to act weird??? i had gone over sections of the paint before and it looked good, until shown under sunlight and under xenon bulbs.


also... if the 105 205 isnt working for me, what can you suggest for a 3 step finish with XMT products (which have caught my eye a little bit) that could work like 105 and 205, and give possibly better results without the use of special methods (KBM).... i do have a makita rotary, thats in storage, so i dont really NEED to use the kbm method to remove defects... and i have removed some decent defects using it, but it just recently began giving me trouble and i cant quite put my finger on it.

 

[Dibbuz]

You're going from M105 and an orange light cutting to M205 on a black finishing pad. I think the gap between those is way to big.

Start with M205 on a white polishing pad, finishing up with a green light polishing or black finishing pad. M205(white white polishing) on 5 with light pressure and M205 (with green light polishing or black finishing) on 4 with very light pressure. If this combo is no good, then start with M105 with the white polishing and finish up with M205 on green or black. Make sure you refine in very small steps.

Also wipe the residu off very gently, do NOT rub in any case. Rubbing causes scratches. If you have trouble removing residu, spray some QD on it to help it wipe away.

It could be you have extremely soft paint. Holograms are very light defects wich should come out with a light combo. Is this the case then M105 and orange is overkill.

 

[TurboToys]

You're going from M105 and an orange light cutting to M205 on a black finishing pad. I think the gap between those is way to big.

Start with M205 on a white polishing pad, finishing up with a green light polishing or black finishing pad. M205(white white polishing) on 5 with light pressure and M205 (with green light polishing or black finishing) on 4 with very light pressure. If this combo is no good, then start with M105 with the white polishing and finish up with M205 on green or black. Make sure you refine in very small steps.

Also wipe the residu off very gently, do NOT rub in any case. Rubbing causes scratches. If you have trouble removing residu, spray some QD on it to help it wipe away.

It could be you have extremely soft paint. Holograms are very light defects wich should come out with a light combo. Is this the case then M105 and orange is overkill.

i would hope the paint isnt too soft, otherwise it wouldnt too too hard to remove m105 effects from the paint with 205 and a gray pad. i had already tried the white pad before the gray pad, but ill probably do the green pad first.

i usually have the product worked down far enough that it requires a very light wiping to remove the residue, but the only thing i wouldnt really be sure about is using a qd to remove the residue... you would have to go over it again with ipa or a prep wash wiping and then ipa to remove that to make sure your QD isnt filling anything in for the inspection, adding lots of steps to it.

 

[Superdutytd]

X2 on that gap being too big between the 2. Compounding will need at least a white pad to remove the damage in past experiences of mine.

 

[sullysdetailing]

I would go with M205 on a White LC pad and then if you wanted to Ultrafine on a gray pad the your LSP by hand.

Where you cleaning the pad alot?

 

[CTS-Veo]

i would hope the paint isnt too soft, otherwise it wouldnt too too hard to remove m105 effects from the paint with 205 and a gray pad. i had already tried the white pad before the gray pad, but ill probably do the green pad first.

i usually have the product worked down far enough that it requires a very light wiping to remove the residue, but the only thing i wouldnt really be sure about is using a qd to remove the residue... you would have to go over it again with ipa or a prep wash wiping and then ipa to remove that to make sure your QD isnt filling anything in for the inspection, adding lots of steps to it.

I've seen some people say that m205 finishes down to an LSP ready finish, and others say that it requires a fallowing final polish.

It sounds like you've used the m105/m205 combo before... If so, do you normaly go right to LSP after the m205? Maybe you could try a finishing polish like 3M ultrafine (I haven't tried it because I think it is only for rotary use. Someone correct me if that is wrong), or Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.

Please post your solution when you find it. Good luck!

 

[sullysdetailing]

I've seen some people say that m205 finishes down to an LSP ready finish, and others say that it requires a fallowing final polish.

It sounds like you've used the m105/m205 combo before... If so, do you normaly go right to LSP after the m205? Maybe you could try a finishing polish like 3M ultrafine (I haven't tried it because I think it is only for rotary use. Someone correct me if that is wrong), or Wolfgang Finishing Glaze.

Please post your solution when you find it. Good luck!

I normally go M105 orange pad M205 white pads. I did a red 98 supra like this it left no haze. I went straight to Pinnacle Sourvan after.

The Ultrafine with gray pad is an extra step but not needed.

 

[CTS-Veo]

I normally go M105 orange pad M205 white pads. I did a red 98 supra like this it left no haze. I went straight to Pinnacle Sourvan after.

The Ultrafine with gray pad is an extra step but not needed.

Do you use the Ultrafine with a DA?

 

[Superdutytd]

I normally go M105 orange pad M205 white pads. I did a red 98 supra like this it left no haze. I went straight to Pinnacle Sourvan after.

The Ultrafine with gray pad is an extra step but not needed.

I've found that most car will look great after the Orange/M105 then white/light or medium polish :xyxthumbs:

That last step is just something on top of that.

 

[TurboToys]

went out today to attempt to work it down from a white lc pad with 205.

the white lc pad with 205 worked fine, then moved onto the gray lc pad with 205, i think my problem lies elsewhere after removing the hazing and holos though. i attempted to wipe and remove the very small amount of polish that was left. used fk 425 as a lubricant to help remove it, then after it was all removed. i went ahead and sprayed the area with a little prep wash , let it set for 30 seconds or so, and then wiped the surface carefully with a new MF. then sprayed the area with IPA 50/50 and let it set for 30 secs or so, and wiped away carefully with another new MF... making sure i didnt have anything extra on any microfiber so i just grabbed a new one for each.

after the area was clean, i could tell there was no scratches left.

but it seemed that the hologramming or the small scratches i was seeing were in the direction i would wipe.... if i wiped side to side softly to remove the ipa then turned it to a dry side and went side to side again to carefully buff it off... i could shine my light from above and see all the horozontal marks... staring me in the face..

now opposite, i went a did vertical wipes after doing a quick rebuff, same process with the gray pad and 205, did my last ipa wipe and did vertical wipes and then i aimed the light down and up on it... zero anything, it looked basically perfect.. but then looked from the left and right, i could see all the marks.

i didnt think that my microfibers had any issues.... i use the proforce microfibers from sams club, a lot of people have said that they are clear safe, and i never left marks like this before with them... if i was drying them in a home dryer, would lint from other clothes possibly get stuck in the mf and make my mf into sandpaper capable of leaving small amounts of scratches??

im not entirely convinced that its the MF clothes, but it seems to look that way right now. any other suggestions? maybe do my final ipa with with the fk 425 to keep the clotch lubricated? or prime the MF with a misting of fk 425 so it isnt as bad?

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

The microfibers are not going to cause holograms but will induce scratches. Also if you have a rotary why not use that instead of forcing the pc to do something it wasn't designed to do.

 

[TurboToys]

I normally go M105 orange pad M205 white pads. I did a red 98 supra like this it left no haze. I went straight to Pinnacle Sourvan after.

The Ultrafine with gray pad is an extra step but not needed.

thats good to know..


when using the brinkmann xenon light, do extra hazing and chemical residues show up that wont be visible under the sun? i could lay halogen lights 2 feet from the paint and not see things that the brinkmann makes visible.... i know that when i initially buffed my paint, it looked flawless outside in the sun, then i turned the brinkmann on it, and im crying with how many things i see after trying to fix some of the holos.

 

[TurboToys]

The microfibers are not going to cause holograms but will induce scratches. Also if you have a rotary why not use that instead of forcing the pc to do something it wasn't designed to do.

rotary is in storage and i wont have it for a bit, need more practice with a PC though.


well, if im not wiping firm enough, will it leave chemical residue behind? im thinking i could use a very minor glaze/aio like ZAIO after finishing the surface, and let the AIO take care of the very minor stuff while also adding a layer of protection for the next layer of sealant and LSPs, but not sure if the ZAIO is enough of a AIO to do that.

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

105 will fill when used with a pc, plus you are finding out that the KBM isn't really all that. I would agree that going from the orange to the gray pad is a big step. You can even go back over the 105/orange combo with 105/white combo, then move on to your 205. I wouldn't give up and just try and cover the defects up, figure out what the cause is and find a solution. Also those that say 205 doesn't need to follow up are missing out on alot. Keep playing around with different pad combos, like 105 on a milder pad before moving onto your 205.

 

[TurboToys]

105 will fill when used with a pc, plus you are finding out that the KBM isn't really all that. I would agree that going from the orange to the gray pad is a big step. You can even go back over the 105/orange combo with 105/white combo, then move on to your 205. I wouldn't give up and just try and cover the defects up, figure out what the cause is and find a solution. Also those that say 205 doesn't need to follow up are missing out on alot. Keep playing around with different pad combos, like 105 on a milder pad before moving onto your 205.

ive been going back and forth on pads, im about ready to switch to a new set of polishes before i give myself more headaches trying to work with the 105 205 combo. also gonna try some correction on a couple other cars (test spots) to see if its just my paint, or if its the combinations im using.

 

[Dibbuz]

Aren't the M105 and M205 micro abrasives? Maybe that doesn't work so great on your paint and you diminishing abrasives.

If you mf's give scratches (even with lite wiping and lube) than you have a very soft paint. Had a couple of paint with that (all black non metallic) and it is a pain in the ass to get them right.
You could try a different polish like Menzerna's or 3M.

It's difficult to give advise without seeing the car or working on it.
Good luck!

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

ive been going back and forth on pads, im about ready to switch to a new set of polishes before i give myself more headaches trying to work with the 105 205 combo. also gonna try some correction on a couple other cars (test spots) to see if its just my paint, or if its the combinations im using.

If you have other polishes then try those out. I was under the impression the Megs twins were all you were using. Lets us know the outcome with the other polishes.

 

[TurboToys]

Aren't the M105 and M205 micro abrasives? Maybe that doesn't work so great on your paint and you diminishing abrasives.

If you mf's give scratches (even with lite wiping and lube) than you have a very soft paint. Had a couple of paint with that (all black non metallic) and it is a pain in the ass to get them right.
You could try a different polish like Menzerna's or 3M.

It's difficult to give advise without seeing the car or working on it.
Good luck!

yeah i hear ya, wishin there was something in my area that was knowledgeable and a member of the forum that could take a wack at it.

i may pick up some 3m stuff locally with diminishing abrasives and see what i can come up with, maybe need something that wont leave anything to question on the black surface...

 

[T Riddle]

u may be rubbing the compounds back into the paint after removing them with the MF....hence may be the reason your getting super fine scratches again. One thing does puzzle me though.. If the only way your seeing these is with the brinkman, then why are you so worried about them? lol. If the car looks flawless under halogen and sunlight then I wouldnt worry about it at all. You might try a different approach to removing the compounds and see if that works for ya. my .02

 

[TurboToys]

u may be rubbing the compounds back into the paint after removing them with the MF....hence may be the reason your getting super fine scratches again. One thing does puzzle me though.. If the only way your seeing these is with the brinkman, then why are you so worried about them? lol. If the car looks flawless under halogen and sunlight then I wouldnt worry about it at all. You might try a different approach to removing the compounds and see if that works for ya. my .02

yeah, ive tried quite a few approaches to removing the compounds, and the thing about the light is, it gives a really good idea of what its going to be visible under direct sunlight. and im honestly trying to get as good as possible, i do want to open a detailing business on the side and just need to work on paint correction techniques more.

the out in the sun, a lot of things look good... then you get up close and it may still look good..... but in the case of holograms if the sun is anywhere from 11am-2pm in the sky. you could walk past a door panel and it would look like one of those little 3d images, you can see tons of things you shouldnt see (holograms) under the sun outside.... which is why, waving a brinkmann on it is a good way to tell if your going to have holograms hiding under your lsp, instead of relying on a halogen... then wasting a bunch of time after pulling it into the sun.

to get better, you have to practice... and in this case, its not just practice, its products also, just need to find out what works... and i wouldnt feel right turning away a customer simply because i didnt spend an extra 60 bucks to pick up some bottles of another kind of polish so i could do paint correction on say a mazda or honda with the water based eco paint which is apparently incredibly soft.... or a corvette which may be pretty resistant to PC correction.:buffing:

thanks for all the suggestions guys, keep em comin if you can, i just finished out a portion of the panel... did a good wipe down and worked it with ZAIO to see if it needs something to work the rest of the tiny imperfections out and a protective layer to make it easier to apply a top coat LSP