M21 vs Ultra Fine Polish

[AustrianOak82]

Can M21 be used as a ultra fine polish? As far as I knew, it had minor abrasives and could be used as a LSP to remove very fine swirls/love marks. I typically use M105 and 205 (as needed) and am looking for something to remove the last traces of the very fine swirls and scratches. Wondering if I could use 205, followed by 21 with a white pad. I havent had much luck removing everything with the 205. Thanks!

 

[Setec Astronomy]

IMO you'd be better off trying to troubleshoot your use of 205 rather than spending time trying to get M21 to do that job. Also, I'm not sure that "minor abrasives" is exactly the term that Meg's would use for what's in M21, I think they would call them "cleaners", and tell you that they are "non-abrasive".

I mean if you are doing a machine application, sure, the pad itself will have some "minor" correction capability (depending on the pad), but I think you need to look into why M205 isn't doing it for you. Are you gumming up M105 or using it on too coarse a pad and leaving marring that 205 isn't capable of removing? Is the paint really soft? What pad are you using for each?

 

[AustrianOak82]

IMO you'd be better off trying to troubleshoot your use of 205 rather than spending time trying to get M21 to do that job. Also, I'm not sure that "minor abrasives" is exactly the term that Meg's would use for what's in M21, I think they would call them "cleaners", and tell you that they are "non-abrasive".

I mean if you are doing a machine application, sure, the pad itself will have some "minor" correction capability (depending on the pad), but I think you need to look into why M205 isn't doing it for you. Are you gumming up M105 or using it on too coarse a pad and leaving marring that 205 isn't capable of removing? Is the paint really soft? What pad are you using for each?

I would use my car as the most recent example. It has black metallic paint and about a medium CC hardness. It didn't require compound, so I hit it with a pink pad and the 205. There were some very fine scratches/swirls left and pretty much only visible in the beaming sun, so I figured I would hit it with the M21 as the LSP. I used the M21 with the white pad, speed of 4.5 on my GG 6", moderate pressure. I was left with the same result.

I figured either the M21 didn't have enough cut or maybe I needed the pink pad with the M21 or more pressure on the prior step. I guess my question was gauged around how much cut the M21 has but your question also has me thinking.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I hit it with a pink pad and the 205. There were some very fine scratches/swirls left and pretty much only visible in the beaming sun

I think you answered your own question. Your initial process wasn't aggressive enough to remove the defects. Either that or the pink pad isn't fine enough to finish with on a black car (I've never used the LC pink). Generally an "ultra fine" polish would be used for jeweling, so even if M21 could perform that function (which I don't think it can), you would need to have a better finish before using it and use a finishing pad. IMO.

You might want to look into a medium polish if you have instances where M105 is too much and M205 isn't enough...but I actually think you should be able to make M205 work...heck, Kevin Brown has used it as a "compound".

I'm sure once everyone wakes up you'll get better answers than mine.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

It sounds like you need either a more aggressive pad or a more aggressive product or both.

Technique could be a factor too.... if you want to keep trying the M205 then buzz that GG6 up to the 6 setting and press down about 10 pounds of pressure and start making slow, overlapping passes. Make about 6-8 and then wipe off the residue and inspect the results.


Save the M21 for sealing the paint, not correcting the paint.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I thought this all sounded a little familiar: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/89143-difficult-scratches-swirls.html

Listen to Mike's advice above...while it's always best to start with the least aggressive method, if you need to remove defects (once you have determined they are not too deep to remove) you need to use a combination of chemical, pad, pressure, and machine speed necessary along with the appropriate technique to get the job done.

 

[AustrianOak82]

It sounds like you need either a more aggressive pad or a more aggressive product or both.

Technique could be a factor too.... if you want to keep trying the M205 then buzz that GG6 up to the 6 setting and press down about 10 pounds of pressure and start making slow, overlapping passes. Make about 6-8 and then wipe off the residue and inspect the results.


Save the M21 for sealing the paint, not correcting the paint.

Alright, I'll hit it in the next couple of days and see what happens. The problem I have always had with running the GG at anything more than a 4.5, is that the LC pads are squishy and completely flat in a matter of seconds. I can take a brand new pad and run it at 6 for 1/2 a hood and by the time I am done with a double pass, the pad has no firmness at all. I'll use 6 with a 3" yellow pad for scratch removal but even then, I have about 10 seconds before the pad has no firmness. I picked up some MF cutting pads that I am going to try out soon. I've used the foam pads the past year or so and never liked them.

 

[AustrianOak82]

I thought this all sounded a little familiar: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/89143-difficult-scratches-swirls.html

Listen to Mike's advice above...while it's always best to start with the least aggressive method, if you need to remove defects (once you have determined they are not too deep to remove) you need to use a combination of chemical, pad, pressure, and machine speed necessary along with the appropriate technique to get the job done.

Like I said, my question was more about using the M21 to knock out the very fine remaining scratches. I can't find any good pictures (guessing because they are hard to find) but I felt like mine could be removed with a very fine polish. The swirls/scratches on that Dodge I did were much worse than what I am talking about here, so it's a different question.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Like I said, my question was more about using the M21 to knock out the very fine remaining scratches. The swirls/scratches on that Dodge I did were much worse than what I am talking about here.

But you're still having the same problem of not being able to correct defects. IMO you are looking at this the wrong way--you are trying to use your "wax" to finish your correction, rather than getting the correction done during the correction step.

As Mike said, you either need to step up the aggressiveness of your process (if the defects are too severe for your pink/M205 combo), or you need to work on your technique to get the pink/M205 to do the job.

 

[AustrianOak82]

This is about what I am working with, or as close as I can show. You can see the very minor swirls that are spaced apart about an inch as they go outward. That's what I working against. So I am guessing from what I am hearing that I need to keep with the 205 and that the 21 wouldn't be able to remove these. I wouldn't need a finer polish than the 205 you think? That was part of the reason I went with the 21, to use it mostly as a sealant but also to get rid of stuff like this:

 

[FUNX650]

So I am guessing from what I am hearing that I need to keep with the 205 and that the 21 wouldn't be able to remove these.

I wouldn't need a finer polish than the 205 you think? That was part of the reason I went with the 21, to use it mostly as a sealant but also to get rid of stuff like this:

Instead of using the Finishing-Sealant Meguiar's M21 2.0
as a "light polish"...Try Meguiar's M20.

Or Meguiar's Ultimate Polish.


Bob

 

[Setec Astronomy]

At the risk of repeating myself from the earlier thread, but also to echo what Mike said above (and I'd listen to Mike way before I'd listen to me)...M21 is a sealant, not a polish, it has no correcting capability.

M205 is already a fine polish--you don't need anything finer, you need to correct those light scratches. If you were going to use something finer than M205 it would be for amplifying the gloss, or "jeweling", not removing swirls.

Generally speaking you would use a compound to remove swirls/scratches, a polish to remove marring from the compound and your compounding pad, and possibly a finishing polish and pad to "jewel" the paint to it's maximum potential. The "wax" is to protect your work.

 

[AustrianOak82]

I have a bottle of M20 that I use from time to time. I picked up the M21 based on the information given my Meguiar's: "Visually eliminates fine scratches and swirls, creating a flawless finish." This would indicate to me that it does have cutting ability. The M20 didn't have this and from what I gathered it had no corrective ability. I guess that is where my confusion lies. This info indicated I could use it as a sealant and ultra-fine polish, which is why I picked it up.

Either way, I will hit it with the polish again and see what happens.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I picked up the M21 based on the information given my Meguiar's: "Visually eliminates fine scratches and swirls, creating a flawless finish." This would indicate to me that it does have cutting ability. The M20 didn't have this and from what I gathered it had no corrective ability. I guess that is where my confusion lies. This info indicated I could use it as a sealant and ultra-fine polish, which is why I picked it up.

What you interpreting as an indication of cutting ability is an indication of fillers. Back 20 years ago there were no hobbyist machines, you worked by hand (even some professionals), and there was really no practical way to remove swirls (especially on clear). So all the products of the day used oils and fine clays to "visually eliminate" swirls by filling them in. Some of these products are called "pure polishes" or "glazes" and sometimes the filling/glazing components are also in the "wax".

Meguiar's used to make a number of pure polishes, #3, #5, #7, #82, DC 2, but I think they are all gone now except for #7. The reason is they have less applicability to clearcoat paints, and also because of the advances in abrasives and machines it is now possible to actually correct clearcoat defects rather than cosmetically hide them.

 

[FUNX650]

I have a bottle of M20 that I use from time to time.

I picked up the M21 based on the information given my Meguiar's: "Visually eliminates fine scratches and swirls, creating a flawless finish." This would indicate to me that it does have cutting ability.

The M20 didn't have this and from what I gathered it had no corrective ability.

I guess that is where my confusion lies. This info indicated I could use it as a sealant and ultra-fine polish, which is why I picked it up.

I personally don't recall that particular information
about M20. Or M21 2.0, for that matter.


Bob

 

[AustrianOak82]

What you interpreting as an indication of cutting ability is an indication of fillers. Back 20 years ago there were no hobbyist machines, you worked by hand (even some professionals), and there was really no practical way to remove swirls (especially on clear). So all the products of the day used oils and fine clays to "visually eliminate" swirls by filling them in. Some of these products are called "pure polishes" or "glazes" and sometimes the filling/glazing components are also in the "wax".

Meguiar's used to make a number of pure polishes, #3, #5, #7, #82, DC 2, but I think they are all gone now except for #7. The reason is they have less applicability to clearcoat paints, and also because of the advances in abrasives and machines it is now possible to actually correct clearcoat defects rather than cosmetically hide them.

So guessing that when they say "Visually eliminate" that is code for glazing over and covering those defects like an M7? In reading on their polishes like 205 they state "Permanently eliminate" so guessing that is what I misinterpreted.

I personally don't recall that particular information
about M20. Or M21 2.0, for that matter.


Bob

Seemed odd to me as well but I was like, hey, I'll take it. Here is the info on both the M20 and M21:

M21 Mirror Glaze® Synthetic Sealant 2.0,
16 oz

16oz
Product number: M2116 | SKU: 070382221164

Hydrophobic Polymer Technology™ Provides Technologically Advanced Paint Care and Protection.

• Hydrophobic Polymer Technology™ provides amazing gloss and water beading
• Produces a noticeable deeper, darker, more reflective paint finish
• Visually eliminates fine scratches and swirls, creating a flawless finish
• Glides on easily with a smooth, resistance-free wipe-off

M20 Mirror Glaze® Polymer Sealant, 16 oz

16oz
Product number: M2016 | SKU: 070382120160

Unique blend of polymers, silicons and imported waxes creates a brilliant high gloss finish that outlasts all other waxes

• Safe and effective on all paint finishes, including clear coats

 

[The Guz]

M20 has a cleaning agent built into it. Think of it as a cleaner agent. It probably won't knock those out but give ti a try.

M21 is a polish wax. It has no ability to correct.

They look like RIDS. Follow what Mike posted and you will be just fine.

 

[AustrianOak82]

M20 has a cleaning agent built into it. Think of it as a cleaner agent. It probably won't knock those out but give ti a try.

M21 is a polish wax. It has no ability to correct.

They look like RIDS. Follow what Mike posted and you will be just fine.

That's my plan. I should clarify, that isn't a picture of my car. That was the closest picture I could find that was similar to mine. Mine are swirls for sure, just very minor.

 

[Kengo123]

Hey man, not to be mean, but setec astronomy has it right but you're not listening to him lol.

If there are still minor swirls visible after compounding and polishing, then you haven't fully corrected the paint.

Redo it with 205 and different pads. Then if you see that it doesn't work, go back and re-compound with 105. After 105, good technique, a cutting pad, and enough TIME, there should be no SWIRLS visible, just a hazier finish that will look awesome after a finishing polish like 205

 

[AustrianOak82]

I am, I said that was my plan! I was just trying to clear up the confusion on the M21 issue, which I think I have. I'll post the results as soon as I can sneak away and do it.