Mckees paint coating vs pinnacle black label paint coating?

[Desertnate]

Not to get off topic, but is Sonax now part of the PBMG? I noticed on the site on the pulldown menu that PBMG brands are usually at the top and Mckees has been moved to the bottom and Sonax is at the top now with PBMG brands. There seems to be much more ads for Sonax on Autogeek. Not that its a bad thing though.

The company that bought PBMG is the US distributer for Sonax.

 

[fightnews]

From what I could gather, they don't mention that it was *designed* to be topped, but it *can* be topped; appears their language is a bit ambiguous. Given their specific mention of Pinnacle Souveran, could be they're just trying to sell wax in addition to the coating...which is a disservice to their customers in my eyes. They tout the self-cleaning abilities of their coating, then suggest a wax that'll pretty much mask the self-cleaning behavior the tout as one of the benefits of their coating. I think whoever writes their ad copy/product descriptions needs to decide just what the main benefit of the coating is and not include extra language to suggest another product that'll mask one of the touted aspects of the coating.

The diamond paint coating is version 2. If you look at the diamond surface coating which is version 1 it says it was "formulated to be able to top with your favorite paste wax"

I think they might of changed to wording a little too. IDK

 

[fightnews]

That's cause there is no concrete data or information on the coatings. They aren't making it in the back room of autogeek or mckees. They are provided a coating sometimes after many revisions and they sell it as brand x y or z. They may have input on "we want it silica based" or "we want it in a spray bottle" etc.

You just won't get the data you are looking for

You just need to put your faith in the company and chemists that are making the products.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unfortunately you are probably right. But maybe they actually do have a tweak to make it more compatible with a wax???

The other thing I would like to know about is the new mckees coating formula will harden in the tube if you don't clean it out after first use. The old formula did not do that I would like to know

1 why
2 does the PBL harden the same way?

 

[BudgetPlan1]

The diamond paint coating is version 2. If you look at the diamond surface coating which is version 1 it says it was "formulated to be able to top with your favorite paste wax"

I think they might of changed to wording a little too. IDK

Never really understood the exact differences between SURFACE coating and PAINT coating in their lineup. Who knows, maybe it's the same stuff, different bottles and pricing...never really looked that closely. I think sometimes PBMG just plain over saturated themselves with all the different brands.

Wonder if some of the PBMG (Pinnacle, Wolfgang and so forth) brands are gonna slow in new development after McKees broke off into their own entity.

Coatings, being one of the more recent developments, sure are producing more and more products these days. Seems like every day someone is asking about the 'best' or if this newly released product is *the best* when likely many are the same or only mildly tweaked. Doesn't seem reasonable to think every coating brand has a *significantly* special formula.

I messed around with 10 or 11 different consumer-grade coatings last winter and while there were some standouts, a few seemed awful similar in their application and final *general* characteristics.

I do remember that one of the PBMG, maybe Pinnacle or Blackfire, was an absolute nightmare in its first version, so much so they took returns on much of it.

At the end of the day, find something you like and something that works for you, your environment and your maintenance habits and stick with it. Just because it works for Bob in Arizona on his car that never sees rain doesn't mean it's gonna work well for Pete's daily driver in Minnesota. The idea that there is an absolute best for any and all folks in every case is a fantasy perpetuated by Internet Fan Boys.

 

[fightnews]

Never really understood the exact differences between SURFACE coating and PAINT coating in their lineup. Who knows, maybe it's the same stuff, different bottles and pricing...never really looked that closely. I think sometimes PBMG just plain over saturated themselves with all the different brands.

Wonder if some of the PBMG (Pinnacle, Wolfgang and so forth) brands are gonna slow in new development after McKees broke off into their own entity.

Coatings, being one of the more recent developments, sure are producing more and more products these days. Seems like every day someone is asking about the 'best' or if this newly released product is *the best* when likely many are the same or only mildly tweaked. Doesn't seem reasonable to think every coating brand has a *significantly* special formula.

I messed around with 10 or 11 different consumer-grade coatings last winter and while there were some standouts, a few seemed awful similar in their application and final *general* characteristics.

I do remember that one of the PBMG, maybe Pinnacle or Blackfire, was an absolute nightmare in its first version, so much so they took returns on much of it.

At the end of the day, find something you like and something that works for you, your environment and your maintenance habits and stick with it. Just because it works for Bob in Arizona on his car that never sees rain doesn't mean it's gonna work well for Pete's daily driver in Minnesota. The idea that there is an absolute best for any and all folks in every case is a fantasy perpetuated by Internet Fan Boys.

Theres 10000 diffrent products in every catagory though. You can't spend a million dollars, quit your job and try a million different products to find what you like. Thats why they have features to help you narrow it down.

I'm mean look at me I can't get a straight answer or even a vauge answer on anything so I bought both. It's ridiculous, the only time they ever answer a question on anything is if its easy or it's a newly released product

 

[BudgetPlan1]

Theres 10000 diffrent products in every catagory though. You can't spend a million dollars, quit your job and try a million different products to find what you like.

Boy, you sure got that right, something new every day it seems. Did finally find something that does everything *I* need and am pleased with...done chasing unicorns.

 

[TMQ]

Boy, you sure got that right, something new every day it seems. Did finally find something that does everything *I* need and am pleased with...done chasing unicorns.

I agree! Love your statement! -- "done chasing unicorns." Lol....

My life is much better once I realized there were no unicorns! Took me awhile tho...Chuckle...

Tom

 

[fightnews]

Thats why I don't want to use a coating. What am I supposed to do with all my waxes, sealants, spray waxes, quick retailers, waterless wash products ect,,, all designed to work with regular uncoated paint or boost regular wax products. Am I supposed to throw it away?

I have expensive products I haven't even used yet or only used once

 

[BudgetPlan1]

Thats why I don't want to use a coating. What am I supposed to do with all my waxes, sealants, spray waxes, quick retailers, waterless wash products ect,,, all designed to work with regular uncoated paint or boost regular wax products. Am I supposed to throw it away?

I have expensive products I haven't even used yet or only used once

Once I finally settled on what worked for me, I just gave away most of my other stuff, much of never or only once used. In addition to being strangely entertaining, it gave me a chance to see if other folks impressions matched mine. Also let me find out if things that didn't meet my expectations were due to the product itself or my inability to use correctly.

 

[kb2ehj]

Thats not the reason why they say it. Thats your assumption. It has nothing to do with synergy wax. It clearly says "designed to be topped with your favorite carnuba wax.

You say they are "buzz words"and "any coating can be topped" but then you say all coatings are not the same. Obviously any coating can be topped that does not mean they all should be topped.

This stuff is all new. Pinnacle black label may have a reason to say specifically their coating is more compatible with a carnuba wax. Instead of trying to answer the question you are trying to give reasons why it shouldn't be asked. The fact is you don't know. Not a big deal but don't try to convince me I shouldn't be asking the question.

If they claim their coating is designed specifically to be topped I want to know about that. Not about the boards coating dogma. I'm sorry but that doesn't help.

If the question had been answered in my "other threads" I wouldn't have made this one. I can read so thanks but I don't need the reiteration.

Yes that is called marketing

 

[kb2ehj]

If they claim their coating is designed specifically to be topped I want to know about that. Not about the boards coating dogma. I'm sorry but that doesn't help.

.

Then email the company directly and not post a question to the forum - Very simple don't you think?

 

[RippyD]

fightnews, I understand your frustration. It's difficult to figure out how coatings are different and what is marketing vs. fact. I think Matt, The Guz, and others have given you the best answers there are. It's just not as clear as it could be. I would be surprised if a topping remained on one coating significantly longer than another, as Guz said. And if it did there are probably some tradeoffs, such as that coating not being as hydrophobic.

Until more of us do some real-world testing of topping coatings with different products, we just don't know. If you decide to try it, please post your results here so we can all learn from it.

 

[vobro]

Theres 10000 diffrent products in every catagory though. You can't spend a million dollars, quit your job and try a million different products to find what you like. Thats why they have features to help you narrow it down.

I'm mean look at me I can't get a straight answer or even a vauge answer on anything so I bought both. It's ridiculous, the only time they ever answer a question on anything is if its easy or it's a newly released product

I cant help you with the two products you've listed but having used CQuartz,CQuartz UK,Gloss Coat and GTechniq quite a bit I'd say it's best to just not wax it. Imho opinion its best to let the coating do its work, I've experienced dust build up and less self cleaning effect by topping. I'm long past the days of chasing the miracle product or system and keep things simple.
As far as getting direct answers from PBMG I just look at it this way, they are a business and their purpose is to sell. Saying that they do provide this great forum and you will get real world answers from users, then it's up to you to budget and select the products based on the info. Nobody's asking anyone to quit their job or spend a million dollars to try searching for products you like, you say you bought both and I gotta ask why? You've had threads on getting unsatisfactory results by mixing this with that and most replied that you are making things difficult on yourself by layering product upon product. I'd say if you go the coating route just to keep it simple

 

[fightnews]

Then email the company directly and not post a question to the forum - Very simple don't you think?

Don't post a question on a forum? What do you think the forum is for?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

You just need to put your faith in the company and chemists that are making the products.

You have hit the nail on the head.

I hope by now in the blogosphere I'm known for never stealing other guys stuff and in fact just the opposite, I always give due credit where credit is due. Of course I rarely see this from others but that's there problem.

To your point and mine, years ago when there was a flaming wax war over whether or not there were abrasives in Meguiar's NXT Tech Wax, at that time I was the front line Wax Warrior for Meguiar's as I ran their detailing discussion forum.

When discussion the problems with all the fighting in the forum world (facebook didn't exist back then but I think MySpace did), John Dillon at Meguiar's, (at that time, I don't know if he's still there or not), gave me some GREAT advice that I not only remember to this day but give him due credit for whenever I share his wise words. You will also find his name and his quote in my how-to book, The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine, but I forget where?

Here's the advice he gave me,


Mike,

When the topic of what's in the bottle comes up, simply put the focus on the performance of the product - John Dillon



And he's right. Wax companies are secretive because it's a very competitive business. I use to tell people that Meguiar's will start telling you what's in the bottle as soon as all the other wax companies start telling you what's in their bottles and that for the most part shut people up as they realize that's the reality of the car wax business, (or coating business), or ANY business except for open source software coding.


I'm like you guys, duh...

Of course I'm curios about what's in the bottle and chemistry in general. But at the end of the day, I put my trust in a brand I know and focus on the performance of the product.

From what I could gather, they don't mention that it was *designed* to be topped, but it *can* be topped; appears their language is a bit ambiguous.

That's the nature of the beast...

The company that bought PBMG is the US distributer for Sonax.

That's correct.

I toured the SONAX manufacturing plant, R&D Lab and the Corporate Offices in Neuburg, Germany last year and was completely impressed with the scope of their operation, (huge), and most important to me... their chemists... they are the real deal.

Somewhere on this forum is a thread I created from our trip to SONAX?

Never really understood the exact differences between SURFACE coating and PAINT coating in their lineup. Who knows, maybe it's the same stuff, different bottles and pricing...never really looked that closely.

The only coating that has ever remained on one of my personal cars is the Pinnacle Black Label Surfaxce Coating. I don't know if it's different from the other coatings or not but based upon what the information says it can be used on paint, glass and plastic. Just by coincidence, the exterior of our Mercedes-Benz SL500 is paint, glass and plastic. I like how fast and easy it is to use. I like how fast our car washes and dries. I like how GLASSY the paint always looks.

Just by coincidence, I will have this car here at Autogeek tomorrow morning to wash her and then use the PBL Booster on her.

I think sometimes PBMG just plain over saturated themselves with all the different brands.

Just to comment.... in my online life, I see the pendulum swing both ways...

People complain when there are only a few choices - then they complain when there are too many choices.

One thing I know for sure, more choices are better than limited choices.

I remember when all we had for tools were these,

Now people complain there's too many tool choices. :laughing:

At the end of the day, find something you like and something that works for you,

Couldn't agree more... in fact, here's my article on this topic and just recently I found my friend Jack Anderson's business card. (Jack is the guy I got the quote from). I'm going to re-create that thread because a couple of people took it way off topic and they've gone by the way side like so many in the forum world. :laughing:

"Find something you like and use it often"

your environment and your maintenance habits and stick with it. Just because it works for Bob in Arizona on his car that never sees rain doesn't mean it's gonna work well for Pete's daily driver in Minnesota.

Totally agree and that's why it's great to have choices and a forum like this to get other peoples opinions and experiences with different products and just to note, opinions can be very different than real-world experiences.

The idea that there is an absolute best for any and all folks in every case is a fantasy perpetuated by Internet Fan Boys.

And I laugh at the Fan Boy Club.

Me?

I'm an equal opportunity exploiter except I won't recommend products I don't trust or would not use on my own car or anyone's car. I'm a purist in this sense.

Do no harm to thin car paint - Mike Phillips

Yes that is called marketing

Yep... see all the time on TV. It makes the world go around. In fact... I have an article on this topic...


I like this saying by Aurthur "Red" Motley because I think it puts thing into perspective...


"Nothing happens until someone sells something"


Example
I can imagine two guys standing around complaining about advertising on a TV show and then I can see these same two guys out on the lake blasting around on their new Jet Skis.

They love their Jet Skis but the blasting around on the lake, (something happening), couldn't happen until the Jet Ski Sales Person sold them their Jet Skis.


Nothing happens until someone sells something...


Think about it...


Great discussion guys...

:dblthumb2:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Also just to chime in...

I think ALL coatings can be topped with a non-cleaning wax or sealant. It's personal preference.

To me?

Once you put something on top of the coating you then gain the benefits and features of the stuff you put on top of the coating and lose the benefits and features of the coating.

At least until the stuff you put on top of the coating wears off.

That's one of the benefits of the coating... it doesn't wear off as fast as historical products we use like waxes and sealants.


I for one don't top cars I coat.

 

[fightnews]

Also just to chime in...

I think ALL coatings can be topped with a non-cleaning wax or sealant. It's personal preference.

To me?

Once you put something on top of the coating you then gain the benefits and features of the stuff you put on top of the coating and lose the benefits and features of the coating.

At least until the stuff you put on top of the coating wears off.

That's one of the benefits of the coating... it doesn't wear off as fast as historical products we use like waxes and sealants.


I for one don't top cars I coat.

I only want to top it because of looks. I'm willing to sacrifice the water beading ECT if I can get the glassy look of the coating and the glow of carnuba.

Plus the fact of not wanting to put the coating on and rendering my thousands of dollars worth of wax based products useless. Detail sprays waxes waterless washes spray waxes the whole bit.

I have faith in the company and like the marketing on the PBL paint coating v2. The thing is, Is the new mckees coating a better, cheaper, easier to use version of the same thing?

I've already bought both so now it's just about finding the answer to that question. They are both nano glass but is 1 more compatible with wax? If they are both equally compatible I would probably lean towards using the mckees since it's a newer formula.

I really don't want to have to put both on my car to find out. I've been using synergy for a long time now. It has issues with stubborn residue but I love the way it looks on my car. I want to recreate the synergy look by applying both components separately. The nano glass and the carnuba.

Thanks for chiming in you're like the God of detailing so it's always good to hear your thoughts on it lol

 

[fightnews]

I cant help you with the two products you've listed but having used CQuartz,CQuartz UK,Gloss Coat and GTechniq quite a bit I'd say it's best to just not wax it. Imho opinion its best to let the coating do its work, I've experienced dust build up and less self cleaning effect by topping. I'm long past the days of chasing the miracle product or system and keep things simple.
As far as getting direct answers from PBMG I just look at it this way, they are a business and their purpose is to sell. Saying that they do provide this great forum and you will get real world answers from users, then it's up to you to budget and select the products based on the info. Nobody's asking anyone to quit their job or spend a million dollars to try searching for products you like, you say you bought both and I gotta ask why? You've had threads on getting unsatisfactory results by mixing this with that and most replied that[b you are making things difficult on yourself by layering product upon product[/b]. I'd say if you go the coating route just to keep it simple

I appreciate your advice but I don't layer product on top of product. That might be the impression people are getting but that's not what's actually what's happening. I try a lot of different products but I always start fresh by polishing at least with diamond ultra fine or menzerna 3800 so I have clean slate.

The problem I'm having is I love the look of synergy wax but it has to be applied in a "clean room" to work right. It leaves a very difficult residue that I'm tired of having to remove every time I use it.

So I want to get the same look without the residue by putting both components on separately

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I only want to top it because of looks. I'm willing to sacrifice the water beading ECT if I can get the glassy look of the coating and the glow of carnuba.

Plus the fact of not wanting to put the coating on and rendering my thousands of dollars worth of wax based products useless. Detail sprays waxes waterless washes spray waxes the whole bit.

I have faith in the company and like the marketing on the PBL paint coating v2. The thing is, Is the new mckees coating a better, cheaper, easier to use version of the same thing?

I honestly don't know the chemical make-up of the products. They tend to keep me in the dark about this type of information. Meguiar's did the same thing.

Here's what I've been saying now for the last couple of years on the forum and that is

PAINT GETS DIRTY

By dirty I don't mean a layer of dirt on the car you can wash off. I mean the paint gets a DIRT STAIN on it and in my experience it doesn't matter if the paint has a coat of wax, synthetic paint sealant or a ceramic coating, the dirt stain from ROAD FILM and other junk in the air will build-up over time and tend to GRAY your car's paint even if you can't see it.

So in my mind, I don't want or need a product that lasts more than a year because within a year I'm going to machine polish the paint and re-apply the coating.

1: This will remove the dirt stain i.e. built up and impacted road grime.

2: It will completely restore the brightness of color, gloss and shine.

3: It will give me peace-of-mind that the car is in fact fully coated and thus full protected.

4: It's normal for me as I'm a real "Car Guy". I do my own mechanical work and I do my own detailing and I don't let my cars go for years without touching them.​

For the above reasons, at least for me, a one-year coating is a better fit than a coating that boasts multiple years of longevity. As for price, I believe the old saying that you get what you pay for rings true from the beginning of man's time on earth to today. I've used McKee's 37 Paint Coating when it first came out. Back then it was DP Paint Coating and I like it. Unlike most coatings it creates a glassy look that feels slippery to the touch. I HATE it when the paint on my car feels rubbery. I won't use coatings that make paint feel rubbery. But again, that's me and my preference, most people don't even know some coatings make paint feel rubbery while some make paint feel slippery like a wax or sealant.

I like the PBL Surface Coating because from going on 2-3 years real-world experience, it's a nice product. It's fast and easy to use, lasts a long time even though I don't let it get over a year old, makes the paint look glassy and makes washing and drying fast and easy. Could be McKee's 37 Paint Coating does the same thing, I don't know I haven't used it in a while.


For all of you reading this into the future, if you have NOT read the below article then click the link, read the text and look at the pretty pictures. It will "teach" you how and why paint gets dirty. This is easily one of my Top 10 artciles I've ever written because of the information it shares.


Road Film - If you drive your car in the rain your car has road film

Thanks for chiming in you're like the God of detailing so it's always good to hear your thoughts on it lol

I call myself and consider myself to be

A blue collar working class dog


Just ask James - he'll tell you the same thing...

Here's James wearing an SCANGRIP i-view to light up products on a shelf.


Click here to view the original image of 1024x767px.

 

[fightnews]

I honestly don't know the chemical make-up of the products. They tend to keep me in the dark about this type of information. Meguiar's did the same thing.

Here's what I've been saying now for the last couple of years on the forum and that is

PAINT GETS DIRTY

By dirty I don't mean a layer of dirt on the car you can wash off. I mean the paint gets a DIRT STAIN on it and in my experience it doesn't matter if the paint has a coat of wax, synthetic paint sealant or a ceramic coating, the dirt stain from ROAD FILM and other junk in the air will build-up over time and tend to GRAY your car's paint even if you can't see it.

So in my mind, I don't want or need a product that lasts more than a year because within a year I'm going to machine polish the paint and re-apply the coating.

1: This will remove the dirt stain i.e. built up and impacted road grime.

2: It will completely restore the brightness of color, gloss and shine.

3: It will give me peace-of-mind that the car is in fact fully coated and thus full protected.

4: It's normal for me as I'm a real "Car Guy". I do my own mechanical work and I do my own detailing and I don't let my cars go for years without touching them.​

For the above reasons, at least for me, a one-year coating is a better fit than a coating that boasts multiple years of longevity. As for price, I believe the old saying that you get what you pay for rings true from the beginning of man's time on earth to today. I've used McKee's 37 Paint Coating when it first came out. Back then it was DP Paint Coating and I like it. Unlike most coatings it creates a glassy look that feels slippery to the touch. I HATE it when the paint on my car feels rubbery. I won't use coatings that make paint feel rubbery. But again, that's me and my preference, most people don't even know some coatings make paint feel rubbery while some make paint feel slippery like a wax or sealant.

I like the PBL Surface Coating because from going on 2-3 years real-world experience, it's a nice product. It's fast and easy to use, lasts a long time even though I don't let it get over a year old, makes the paint look glassy and makes washing and drying fast and easy. Could be McKee's 37 Paint Coating does the same thing, I don't know I haven't used it in a while.


For all of you reading this into the future, if you have NOT read the below article then click the link, read the text and look at the pretty pictures. It will "teach" you how and why paint gets dirty. This is easily one of my Top 10 artciles I've ever written because of the information it shares.


Road Film - If you drive your car in the rain your car has road film






I call myself and consider myself to be

A blue collar working class dog


Just ask James - he'll tell you the same thing...

Here's James wearing an SCANGRIP i-view to light up products on a shelf.


Click here to view the original image of 1024x767px.

Coincidentally i just bought that same exact light!