FUNX650
New member
- Dec 1, 2010
- 21,057
- 1
@OP:
Hi David...
In all seriousness…
I agree with the below:
Therefore...I shall start over.
(NOTE: I originally said I was going to post "Fillers" in Tundra_10’s:
"new word of the day" thread...but I’ll post, in part, here instead.)
When I first read your OP:
These were some of my conclusions...
Meaning:
-It seemed to me as though you were at first perpetuating information regarding fillers
that you had either heard, seen, read as being factual, or "expert";
-And then it was as though you were questioning the validity of what you regarded as:
fillers hiding swirls.
-It led me to believe that confusion was present.
Then...
This caused me to conjur up flash-backs of how many times the word filler(s) has been debated...
even my inner-debates as well.
That’s why I posted:
I meant no disrespect or offense...My intents were:
-The furtherance of the fillers-debate;
-And to paraphrase an excellent quote by Vegas Transplant (VT):
"I did not want you to aquiesce to any information disseminated by heresay, expert or not"...
-Also…I was hoping to also pique your interest in a: 'filler-fact-finding' mission of your own...
Because, as a former AGO member used to say: 'Information obtained from forums/internet can be helpful…
But: Research, Research, Research'.
Over the years I have taken that advice to heart.
First…As to car-care products:
-Fillers seem to have a pejorative connotation attached to them (such as filling swirls)…
And that products containing them may be "bad", or not as "good" as others. Over the
years they have received a bad reputation from formerly being used to: “cheapen” products.
When I think of fillers as: filling…
I see images of things like:
-Plastic surgeons taking collagen and filling in wrinkles and such
-By adding 1lb of pork @ $1.50/lb...to 2lbs of ground round @ $2.75/lb allowed me to extend
the amount of patties for the grill, and save a few bucks in the process.
-Seeing my bulging, overflowing, Christmas stocking only to find it was not filled with toys,
but supplanted with underwear and school supplies for the upcoming semester.
Now are these fillers good or “bad”?
Next…What are fillers, and their purpose, in car-care products?
-Many, many types of fillers, with those fillers having scores upon scores...or more...of synonyms.
A few fillers are:
-calcium carbonate, diatomaceous earth (DE), clay, kaolinite, kaolin clay, calcined kaolin clay, mica and feldspar.
But the particular filler that I’m going to focus on
(to stay on this thread topic; and, for further reference to Meg’s 21) is:
-Clay…especially Kaolinite/Kaolin Clay...
Versus, specifically, Calcined Kaolin Clay (anhydrous)
Note: These "clays" come in a variety of grades, through different refining processes…
With Calcined Kaolin Clay being considered the most refined (best) grade.
What is Calcined Kaolin Clay?
- It is an anhydrous (water/moisture-free; dried) aluminium silicate produced
from the natural clay mineral Kaolinite.
-Calcined: heated to temperatures 650 C, and above.
-The chemical formula for pure clay (mineral name Kaolinite) is Al2O3 2SiO2 2H2O
- It is inert (neutral), and has a high silicon content.
-Has a porous structure
What are some of its purposes:
-Improves structural strength, good dispersion, chemical stability, corrosion resistance, gloss,
enhances luster, chemical engineered ceramics (such as in brakes), impact resistance, durability,
heat and weather resistance, opacity...as when one coat of paint hides wall-blemishes/other colors,
diffuses light transmission, adsorption, it can partially replace (supplant) things like: TiO2 (titanium white)---for whiteness...
and alumina… thereby improving product quality and reduce production costs...directly cutting monetary output
for costlier materials, (<<<my: Pork/Ground round analogy(?)), reinforcing, electrical insulator, tear resistance,
tensile strength, aging resistance, solubility enhancement, abrasion resistance, smoothness, insulating properties,
fire resistance, barrier properties, mildly abrasive formulations for metal cleaning compounds and car polishes,
modify rheology, stain resistance, carrier for active ingredients, "nano’s", chemical-interaction for polymer structures…
among many others.
From M21’s MSDS:
Section 3 - COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
NAME…………………………………CAS#................................…….%
synthetic polymer blend ………..N/A……………………………….3-5
calcined kaolin clay……………66402-68-4………………………..5-15
naphtha petroleum,
isoparaffin hydrotreated.……64742-48-9…………………………5-15
distillates, petroleum,
middle, hydrotreated…………64742-46-7………………………….1-5
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Just as, or more important, are CAS#’s...Because MSDS may be misleading at times:
Examples:
-Some products will say there is no HF acid in our product but their MSDS says otherwise:
Ingredient Name............CAS#............%
Ammonium bifluoride...1341.49-7...10-15
-Other products may list: Ammonium Sulfanylacetate, but it has synonyms like acetic acid.
-A supplier of polymer resins lists one of its ingredients as:
Glass Fiber...CAS No.65997-17-3
-Its CAS# explains that it is:
"320F White Aluminum Oxide for Refractory 1.Description: White Fused Alumina /White Refractory Abrasive,
was made from the high quality alumina by melting above 2000
in the electric arc furnace and cooling. It is white with the main crystal phase alphaAl2O3.
Used to improve volume stability and thermal shock resistance"
-In other words a Calcined Kaolin Clay.
-If one looks up one of M21's CAS# 66402-68-4…
It will, in more detail, define the specifics of M21’s particular Kaolinite Clay (calcined)
So I ask myself: What is the purpose of Meguiar’s putting Calcined Kaolin Clay in M21?
(From the list of purposes)
-Is it to impart opaqueness (hide, cover-up---like paints will)?
(Sealants are said to impart a glassy-look. Doesn’t sound like what M21, a sealant, should be doing.)
-Is it to assist the “synthetic polymer blend” in M21?
(This Q&A session may be interminable.)
So… to wind this post down…
-I’ll say that if I had to choose sealant-products, I’d go with ones that used
Calcined Kaolin Clay in their formulations, with some 'polyamino-functionals' thrown in.
-Yes…M21 does have at least one filler in it…
But…IMHO…it’s usage/intention is not what many have said fillers "do".
In closing...
-I like, and really appreciate the below posting by smack…makes a lot sense (Thanks Mike!):
And, IMO…The below posting by Mr. Phillips regarding fillers is also a very good read.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...-sealant-coating-works-fills-some-degree.html
-Just a few thoughts of mine regarding: Fillers.
-Thanks for taking the time to read this post of mine.
Bob
Hi David...
In all seriousness…
I agree with the below:
Therefore...I shall start over.
(NOTE: I originally said I was going to post "Fillers" in Tundra_10’s:
"new word of the day" thread...but I’ll post, in part, here instead.)
When I first read your OP:
These were some of my conclusions...
Meaning:
-It seemed to me as though you were at first perpetuating information regarding fillers
that you had either heard, seen, read as being factual, or "expert";
-And then it was as though you were questioning the validity of what you regarded as:
fillers hiding swirls.
-It led me to believe that confusion was present.
Then...
This caused me to conjur up flash-backs of how many times the word filler(s) has been debated...
even my inner-debates as well.
That’s why I posted:
I meant no disrespect or offense...My intents were:
-The furtherance of the fillers-debate;
-And to paraphrase an excellent quote by Vegas Transplant (VT):
"I did not want you to aquiesce to any information disseminated by heresay, expert or not"...
-Also…I was hoping to also pique your interest in a: 'filler-fact-finding' mission of your own...
Because, as a former AGO member used to say: 'Information obtained from forums/internet can be helpful…
But: Research, Research, Research'.
Over the years I have taken that advice to heart.
First…As to car-care products:
-Fillers seem to have a pejorative connotation attached to them (such as filling swirls)…
And that products containing them may be "bad", or not as "good" as others. Over the
years they have received a bad reputation from formerly being used to: “cheapen” products.
When I think of fillers as: filling…
I see images of things like:
-Plastic surgeons taking collagen and filling in wrinkles and such
-By adding 1lb of pork @ $1.50/lb...to 2lbs of ground round @ $2.75/lb allowed me to extend
the amount of patties for the grill, and save a few bucks in the process.
-Seeing my bulging, overflowing, Christmas stocking only to find it was not filled with toys,
but supplanted with underwear and school supplies for the upcoming semester.
Now are these fillers good or “bad”?
Next…What are fillers, and their purpose, in car-care products?
-Many, many types of fillers, with those fillers having scores upon scores...or more...of synonyms.
A few fillers are:
-calcium carbonate, diatomaceous earth (DE), clay, kaolinite, kaolin clay, calcined kaolin clay, mica and feldspar.
But the particular filler that I’m going to focus on
(to stay on this thread topic; and, for further reference to Meg’s 21) is:
-Clay…especially Kaolinite/Kaolin Clay...
Versus, specifically, Calcined Kaolin Clay (anhydrous)
Note: These "clays" come in a variety of grades, through different refining processes…
With Calcined Kaolin Clay being considered the most refined (best) grade.
What is Calcined Kaolin Clay?
- It is an anhydrous (water/moisture-free; dried) aluminium silicate produced
from the natural clay mineral Kaolinite.
-Calcined: heated to temperatures 650 C, and above.
-The chemical formula for pure clay (mineral name Kaolinite) is Al2O3 2SiO2 2H2O
- It is inert (neutral), and has a high silicon content.
-Has a porous structure
What are some of its purposes:
-Improves structural strength, good dispersion, chemical stability, corrosion resistance, gloss,
enhances luster, chemical engineered ceramics (such as in brakes), impact resistance, durability,
heat and weather resistance, opacity...as when one coat of paint hides wall-blemishes/other colors,
diffuses light transmission, adsorption, it can partially replace (supplant) things like: TiO2 (titanium white)---for whiteness...
and alumina… thereby improving product quality and reduce production costs...directly cutting monetary output
for costlier materials, (<<<my: Pork/Ground round analogy(?)), reinforcing, electrical insulator, tear resistance,
tensile strength, aging resistance, solubility enhancement, abrasion resistance, smoothness, insulating properties,
fire resistance, barrier properties, mildly abrasive formulations for metal cleaning compounds and car polishes,
modify rheology, stain resistance, carrier for active ingredients, "nano’s", chemical-interaction for polymer structures…
among many others.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
From M21’s MSDS:
Section 3 - COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
NAME…………………………………CAS#................................…….%
synthetic polymer blend ………..N/A……………………………….3-5
calcined kaolin clay……………66402-68-4………………………..5-15
naphtha petroleum,
isoparaffin hydrotreated.……64742-48-9…………………………5-15
distillates, petroleum,
middle, hydrotreated…………64742-46-7………………………….1-5
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Just as, or more important, are CAS#’s...Because MSDS may be misleading at times:
Examples:
-Some products will say there is no HF acid in our product but their MSDS says otherwise:
Ingredient Name............CAS#............%
Ammonium bifluoride...1341.49-7...10-15
-Other products may list: Ammonium Sulfanylacetate, but it has synonyms like acetic acid.
-A supplier of polymer resins lists one of its ingredients as:
Glass Fiber...CAS No.65997-17-3
-Its CAS# explains that it is:
"320F White Aluminum Oxide for Refractory 1.Description: White Fused Alumina /White Refractory Abrasive,
was made from the high quality alumina by melting above 2000
in the electric arc furnace and cooling. It is white with the main crystal phase alphaAl2O3.
Used to improve volume stability and thermal shock resistance"
-In other words a Calcined Kaolin Clay.
-If one looks up one of M21's CAS# 66402-68-4…
It will, in more detail, define the specifics of M21’s particular Kaolinite Clay (calcined)
So I ask myself: What is the purpose of Meguiar’s putting Calcined Kaolin Clay in M21?
(From the list of purposes)
-Is it to impart opaqueness (hide, cover-up---like paints will)?
(Sealants are said to impart a glassy-look. Doesn’t sound like what M21, a sealant, should be doing.)
-Is it to assist the “synthetic polymer blend” in M21?
(This Q&A session may be interminable.)
So… to wind this post down…
-I’ll say that if I had to choose sealant-products, I’d go with ones that used
Calcined Kaolin Clay in their formulations, with some 'polyamino-functionals' thrown in.
-Yes…M21 does have at least one filler in it…
But…IMHO…it’s usage/intention is not what many have said fillers "do".
In closing...
-I like, and really appreciate the below posting by smack…makes a lot sense (Thanks Mike!):
And, IMO…The below posting by Mr. Phillips regarding fillers is also a very good read.
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...-sealant-coating-works-fills-some-degree.html
-Just a few thoughts of mine regarding: Fillers.
-Thanks for taking the time to read this post of mine.
Bob
Last edited:
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