MF Pad System...Devil's Advocate Thread

[05xrunner]

Yes and yes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was gonna ask about what to use..Are you guys just washing them with the same Microfiber detergent we use for the towels? or something else?

 

[RaskyR1]

I was gonna ask about what to use..Are you guys just washing them with the same Microfiber detergent we use for the towels? or something else?

I've just been washing mine by hand after sitting in some snappy clean as I only have a couple pads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Shawn T.]

Thank you Mr. Stoops!

Getting back on topic is a great idea.

This thread sounded like a bad political campaign.......

 

[LuxuryMobile]

Great response by Stoops. I look forward to giving these a shot. Not in a huge rush, but seems like it will be a nice system if you can fit it into your needs, if not then thats ok too.

 

[Michael Stoops]

No system is perfect, I'm not looking for a perfect system. I'm looking for the system that I think works the best and take it from there. These are just tools to help us achieve what we are after.

And the reality is, that's the best any of us can hope for in this game. There are just too many variables for any one system to be the "be all and end all" for anyone.

I don't get what all the fuss is about either. Some people like 105/205, some people like Menzerna/Wolfgang. The 2 are not in the same boat pricewise but people are able to discuss them in harmony...

People do get a bit passionate about all this, don't they? And yet, using such a wide variety of tools, liquids, pads, etc we see plenty of people achieving outstanding results on a wide variety of paint systems. Only so much of the process can come out of a bottle - the guy behind the buffer still has to understand the process and know what he's doing. At the end of the day, if the defects are gone and the paint looks gorgeous (and the customer is happy), it doesn't make one bit of difference how you got there. Well, as long as you didn't sand the clear down to the last molecular layer!!

Did I miss something in the last dozen reviews I read?

Are these pads really machine washable/dryable?

As Chad points out, yes and yes.

I was gonna ask about what to use..Are you guys just washing them with the same Microfiber detergent we use for the towels? or something else?

Wash them exactly the same way as you do your microfiber towels. Heck wash 'em with your microfiber towels if you want to. If you use a specialized microfiber specific detergent, that's fine. If you just go with an over the counter laundry detergent, that's fine too.

 

[WestEnd]

Thanks for some clarification, Stoops!!

I have changed my mind on waiting for more reviews. I again watched the video with Phillips and somehow, the first time around, missed you guys cleaning the pad with the brush instead of air. That was the hangup for me, no compressor and completely forgot about the brush being effective.

Also, this is what the hobby of detailing is for me, having fun and playing around with new products. Plus, I like the idea of the low dusting vs my go to 105/205. Also it's great to throw em into the washer with microfibers and I didn't catch the ~ 50 uses. As a hobbyist, one pad each size will last me forever.

My cost is going to be so minimal, how can I not try these?! It's not like buying a big ticket item.

 

[fredcandetail]

Hey Stoops .. As you know folks like to experiment (me included /105+205=WOW) ..

Did anyone of the testers report back with playing outside the box with the MF DA Compound with a regular polishing pad? and what were the results .... AND

Did anyone of the testers report back with playing outside the box with the MF DA Compound and a Surbuf pad? and what were the results

experimenting minds wants to know

 

[Jason Rose]

I understand where you are coming from spicy. I think to be a wise consumer you have to listen to others and then after that make your own conclusions. This system really could be the greatest thing since sliced bread or it could be a less dusty version of 105/surbuf... who knows.

I will say I am anxious to try it out and to see what it can do. I might make my sisters car the test dummy. I want to really put this system to the test to see if it really is "worth" it and if it is a valuable weapon to have in your back pocket. I dont believe this will replace anyting in my arsenal but possibly be a "go to" product.

When I get it in I will compare results to several other products that many would reach for prior to getting the MF system and I will try and do a good write up/review from an unbiased perspective

Great, thanks for your willingness to try the system...and reserving judgement. I encourage you, and others, to give it a multi-car test. Don't make conclusions on one car. Paint variables and the fact that you are trying something new...you may want to do a few cars before coming to conclusions.

Jason Rose
Meguiar's

 

[Michael Stoops]

Hey Stoops .. As you know folks like to experiment (me included /105+205=WOW) ..

Did anyone of the testers report back with playing outside the box with the MF DA Compound with a regular polishing pad? and what were the results .... AND

Did anyone of the testers report back with playing outside the box with the MF DA Compound and a Surbuf pad? and what were the results

experimenting minds wants to know

I don't recall if the specific combinations you mention have been tested, but guys have used M105 and M86 with the cutting disc, and I have personally used D301 with a foam finishing pad on ridiculously sensitive paint, all with excellent results. We love seeing people experiment - that's one of the reasons M105 has become so popular! Remember, that was designed primarily for use with a wool pad via rotary on fresh paint. But look at how many people are using it with foam pads on a D/A. Heck, even though we're recommending the DA Microfiber Correction System for use on factory cured paint only, that London Cab we did (referenced in the intro post over on MOL) has a 5 year old single stage respray. While that paint was pretty delicate, the system performed beautifully on it.

Who knows, you're liable to come across a particular paint system that responds better to M105 or a Menzerna product on the cutting disc than it does to D300. If that's the case, then you use what works.

 

[RobZ71LM7]

It's just another pad system that happens to have specifically engineered compounds/polishes. I think some are threatened by the sensationalism following this product for a couple reasons:

1) They fear it may make their large investment in existing pads, products, machines obsolete

2) That is makes paint correction so easy that the learning curve is so shortened that craftsmen are not as essential and anyone can start performing their work

Both views I think are irrational.

 

[Michael Stoops]

Just going back through the thread and looking to answer some other questions.

everyone seems to be comparing the cutting pads to surbuffs. I'm assuming these pads are comparable in aggressiveness to a yellow pad or wood pad on a rotary? If so, isn't that a bit of overkill in terms of people who have softer paint or correct a couple times a year?

I mean I can see where a bit more aggressiveness, for ppl that use DAs only, means less passes and a faster detail, but now I'm getting nervous about being unable to dial down the aggressiveness if I need to. The only option I have when compounding (short of using different products) is to limit the pressure and passes I guess...

You bring up some very valid points. If you're just taking care of your own car and once a year it just needs some light touching up, then yes, this system may well be overkill. If you have very delicate paint and you know that you don't need anything more aggressive than M205/foam polishing pad, or maybe Wolfgang Total Swirl Remover 3.0, Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover, etc then why go more aggressive?

The Marconi Museum, which is very near to Meguiar's offices in Irvine, CA brought in a Ferrari 550 Maranello a while back for us to help them clean up. As it turned out, M205 on one of our W8207 foam polishing pads via D/A was all that was needed to correct it. In that case, for that car, the DA Microfiber Correction System would have been total overkill.

 

[Michael Stoops]

i would like to see how versatile the products can be-meaning can you use these polishs and pads with other products and pads ? otherwise it seems to be very specific in design

While it is very specific in design, we also knew when we placed it in the hands of guys like Nick Chapman, David Fermani and Todd Helme that experimentation would run rampant! If you know these guys at all you know they can't stay inside any box for very long! They've gotten excellent results with a variety of liquids, depending on how a particular paint responded.

I understand where you are coming from spicy. I think to be a wise consumer you have to listen to others and then after that make your own conclusions. This system really could be the greatest thing since sliced bread or it could be a less dusty version of 105/surbuf... who knows.

That last statement has some validity to it. While it seems from those who tested this system and have a lot of first hand knowledge of Surbuf/M105, the S/M105 cuts faster but tends to leave more haze. But since that haze cleans up easily, it's really no big deal. The potential "big deal" comes from the far, far greater life expectancy of the DA Microfiber discs and the almost complete absence of dust.

But this product is not intended to replace the rotary. It may produce rotary-like results, but it's not a direct replacement. So who is the intended target for this product? The average Joe? If that's the case then he now has a tool that can produce rotary-like results without the dangers of using a rotary. This product also sounds promising for a amateurs, like myself, that mostly do 2-step corrections.

Look at it more as a bridging of the gap between DA and rotary work. For large volume reconditioning facilities it's a huge time saver, and they don't have to do extensive rotary training for their workforce. On the other end of the spectrum the "average Joe" who maybe doesn't spend a lot of time polishing paint (maybe just his own car once a year and his neighbors a couple of times) and is maybe struggling to refine his techniques in order to achieve the results he really wants, this system can be an enormous benefit. In between these, the pro detailer is going to decide how this fits into his arsenal, when the best time is to use it, when it's too aggressive, and when he really needs to reach for the rotary.

General question: If we don't have access to compressed air, how many pads should we have to do an entire car?

Using only a brush for pad cleaning I've corrected several cars using no more than two cutting discs and one finishing disc. But I brush the cutting discs after every section pass.

Was the recommendation earlier to clean each MF pad (w/air) between each panel?

If that's so, then you would need a minimum of eight pads, if my math is correct.

1 - Hood
1 - Trunk
4 - Fenders
2 - Two Doors

As noted above, if you're cleaning the pad with either air, a brush or even a pad washer, you can correct the whole car with just a couple of pads.

It's just another pad system that happens to have specifically engineered compounds/polishes. I think some are threatened by the sensationalism following this product for a couple reasons:

1) They fear it may make their large investment in existing pads, products, machines obsolete

2) That is makes paint correction so easy that the learning curve is so shortened that craftsmen are not as essential and anyone can start performing their work

Both views I think are irrational.

This takes me back to when M105 was first introduced and we were working on the Alpine boat project for CES. I asked Joe Fernandez of Superior Shine how he liked M105. Funny guy he his, he looked me right in the eye and said "I hate it". When I asked why, he just held that steely gaze and said, totally deadpan, "because it makes someone like you look like you're as good as me." Funny guy, that Joe.

 

[CEE DOG]

This is one of the best threads I've read. Thanks again for starting this Spicy. For those getting upset about any negativity from anyone forget about that. Focus on the incredible amount of information this puppy has produced!

Michael, great work really highlighting the strengths of the mf system! Before reading this thread I was in a similar state of opinion to some of Spicy's points. "The Surbuffs work great and I'm going to be finishing with another step anyway..... However taking into account the durability claims made here and the dusting I'm a little more interested in the system now. Chad (Rasky) put together a great review that I enjoyed but after further considerations and thought I wasn't planning to purchase this. At this point I'm going to have to go look up the price of the system and may check it out eventually.

Michael, can you give me any of your first hand info on using the system 300/mf with the Flex 3401? Did you notice a lesser finish than that of the other DAs you used?

For those that take offense to people questioning the system you must remember to keep an open mind. All of us are much more knowledgable in the system because of the questioning and debate.

As far as the craziness and name calling forget about it! Who cares, that's the persons problem that did the name calling. Leave that to them and the admin.

Edit: I should add that it's obviously uncalled for but if it has no merit then who cares unless your the person who was attacked and of course you have to set it straight for the record...

 

[Michael Stoops]

Michael, can you give me any of your first hand info on using the system 300/mf with the Flex 3401? Did you notice a lesser finish than that of the other DAs you used?

While I personally have no first hand experience using this system with the Flex 3401, all the feedback we have from test users is that it does cut faster but doesn't leave as nice a finish (ie, it tends to haze more in the compounding phase). Now, since this hazing tends to be pretty easy to clean up that's probably not a real issue for most. But the finishing disc and finishing wax used on this tool may still leave some hazing behind, depending on the paint. Again, probably not a big deal - use the D300 Compound with the cutting disc to quickly knock down the defects and then follow with your favorite foam pad and finishing polish prior to applying your LSP. On very hard paint this probably won't be an issue, but the more delicate the paint the greater the probability.

 

[C. Charles Hahn]

This is one of the best threads I've read. Thanks again for starting this Spicy. For those getting upset about any negativity from anyone forget about that. Focus on the incredible amount of information this puppy has produced!

Agreed... but I have to say I find it interesting that both Spicy and Flash managed to get themselves banned (albeit temporarily, it appears) presumably as a result of comments in this thread.

I do think we've broken a great deal of positive ground here in spite of the negativity. rops:

 

[David Fermani]

Thanks David. I did a car this weekend with SurBuf/105 - Tangerine HT/205 and gray VC/PO 85RD. One of the panels I skipped the 205 on and the 85RD removed the Surbuff holograms and looked the same as the others. That was the first time I tried this on any paint..
Thanks for the heads up. I wasn't sure... Geez, check in every couple days and you miss a lot around here.

Great to know. What vehicle were you working on, what color was it, how was the finish after SB/105 and what light source did you use for inspection?

I rarely do an intermediate step after surbuf/105 unless I'm doing a full 3 step correction (which means I would do an intermediate step no matter what the first step was). I have had great luck finishing after surbuf/105 with both Menz 106fa and PO85rd.

Please don’t take this with offense, but I don’t quite understand your statement as your 1st sentence contradicts itself. Maybe you can elaborate? If you claim to not usually need an intermediate step after M105/SB, why are you doing a 3 step process in the 1st place? I (personally) don’t see a need to ever use SB’s as a 2nd step(even after cutting with wool), so I don’t see that as what you are referring to? Is it? I never claimed that doing a 2 step correction isn’t possible when using SB’s(as the initial step), but this is well into the range of an exception more than a norm from both my experiences as well as many others. Especially with so many threads I read where people(pros) usually follow M105/SB with M105/Orange to level the marring the SB pad can create. If you need to follow this initial step with another aggressive compounding step that tells me the pad marring is pretty significant from SB’s. But, like all things, it depends on the paint you’re dealing with too. Hard paint(even though it’s a challenge to correct) can finish extremely well with semi-mid-range processes. Soft clear though can and is a completely different story, but I can still always finish out great after M105/MF with a final polish like 85rd.

 

[05xrunner]

So since my Mustang is jet black..Does that mean it probably wont finish down as good on my car as it does on some others and have to follow up with a HT pad or something?

 

[aerogt01]

So since my Mustang is jet black..Does that mean it probably wont finish down as good on my car as it does on some others and have to follow up with a HT pad or something?

It completely depends on how the paint responds. As I think Ford paint tends to be on the hard side (correct me if I'm wrong) then it should finish out pretty well.

 

[Shane731]

Wow! What a read! Very interesting stuff. Can't believe how immature some people can be. Whatever. Still considering trying this system, but I haven't decided yet. I may wait to see if Meguiar's has it at Detail Fest to try out.

Well either you have had really good luck or only used limited products fromt their lineup as they do have a couple "duds". G110, V2, consumer items, etc.

That company started to sink by the end of 09.

But they must be filthy rich with all the 105/205 they sell and will be laughing to the bank the first two weeks after this system is released.

Still trying to figure this one out. How do you figure that just because an item is sold at Wal-Mart that it is a dud? Meguiar's is one of the only companies I know of that (at least this is my experience with the Meguiar's products that I have used, and I have used a lot), has products that just plain work. Sure, there might be another product that is better or better suited for that particular task, but it's kinda nice to know that I can pick up any Meguiar's product and know it's a good product. Not too many companies can say that. That's not to say that I've liked every Meguiar's product I've used, because that's not true. But they are still good products. Also, Meguiar's seems to be the only company that gets bashed around just because they have OTC products. How come Mother's doesn't get this kind of bashing? They sell OTC products as well as professional products. What makes Mother's so much better? I don't know. Never could figure out people. Thanks anyway everybody who posted for the interesting read.


@ Flash, what is a ratory? I can't find that word in my dictionary. :dunno:













:coolgleam:

 

[bimmer325!]

Okay...great points across the board made by many..but I don't believe that Meguairs would spend 7 yrs and alot of money..and release an inferior product. It DOES state however that THIS system is designed for today's clear coat finishes..which means that it may not work "perfect" across the whole paint spectrum. If nothing else..you will have a good dependable product that will do far better than average correction in alot less time. After that..you can do more if you want to try to achieve 100% correction..but most customers are blown away with 70-90 % anyway. You will make them happy with decent effort.