Miscible and Immiscible - Wax and Paint Sealant Bonding

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I guess what I am in fact alluding to is that the use of terminology in this area is rather ambiguous and what the user perhaps expects from the product category may not match entirely what the product is doing.

Mind you - the terminology is a lot better than what the chemical industry uses.

Talk to the big manufacturers and a polish could mean anything from a pure cleanser through to a wax with heavy compound abrasives!

I strongly agree with the above and in fact... I have an article on that...


Words mean things... just ask any Lawyer...

Word Definitions - Compounds, Polishes, Glazes, Paint Cleaners and Waxes




:xyxthumbs:

 

[sparklingwater]

So are you saying after compounding and polishing that it may be necessary to apply a light isp for proper bonding of sealant/wax? Wouldn't just wiping off polish/prewax cleanser be good enough before waxing? I understand if working on more expensive cars this step might be appropriate as to perfection but Mike stated "working forward" would also be to apply a light polish before waxing. Isn't that the last step one would normally do before sealing/waxing? Compound >polish>wax. or isp compound polish wax or compound polish, isp wax? thanks Godbless

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

So are you saying after compounding and polishing that it may be necessary to apply a light isp for proper bonding of sealant/wax?

Actually, if you go to the first page of this thread and read the second paragraph what "I" say is to follow the manufacturer's directions...

Follow the Manufacturer's Recommendations
The first and primary consideration goes to the manufactures recommendations. If the manufacturer of a wax or paint sealant officially recommends that the surface of the paint must be stripped clean before their product can properly bond to the paint, then you should follow the recommendations of the manufacturer as they know their products best.

If the manufacturer does not specifically recommend that a painted surface needs to be stripped clean, then whatever recommendations they do provide should be followed as they know their products best.

To my knowledge, there are only a few manufacturers in the wax and paint sealant business that recommend that the surface of automotive paint be surgically clean and bare before their products can be applied. Besides these few companies, most manufacturers either recommend to apply their wax and/or paint sealant to the paint after first using their surface prep products which can include, compounds, polishes, paint cleaners and pre-wax cleaners. And of course, sometimes there are no specific recommendations.

Wouldn't just wiping off polish/prewax cleanser be good enough before waxing?

It all depends upon what the manufacturer recommends. For example, most if not all coatings manufacturers recommend an oil, wax and silicone free surface before applying their coating.

So for any product you want to use, check to see what the "manufacturer" states about the proper use of their product.

I understand if working on more expensive cars this step might be appropriate as to perfection but Mike stated "working forward" would also be to apply a light polish before waxing.

Isn't that the last step one would normally do before sealing/waxing? Compound >polish>wax. or isp compound polish wax or compound polish, isp wax? thanks Godbless

Historically, the above would be correct and still is for the majority of car wax and paint sealant manufacturers. Coatings are a new evolution in paint sealing and protection.

That's what this forum is all about... introducing new products and the education to use them correctly be they a tool, pad, coating, etc.

 

[sparklingwater]

Thanks for the clarifications. I never even heard of ipa's . See it's good to be on these forums. I 've heard of prewax cleansers but only for car whose paint does not need any correction. I guess I was under the impression since i basically use all meguiars products that they all work together and would be chemically miscible and the compounding/polishing would not hurt the adhesion of any type of sealant/wax, but I guess it couldn't hurt to allow for more complete bonding! Thanks for the tips again. Blessings.

So do yall pros, Mike, and others actually use ipa's on every car ? And only before waxing/sealant?


Offsubject- Have yall heard of that new simoniz sealant supposed to seal your car for 5 years?

:buffing:

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

So do yall pros, Mike, and others actually use ipa's on every car ? And only before waxing/sealant?

I only chemically strip paint if the manufacturer states it is a neccassary step.

Othewise, after the last machine polishing step I apply the LSP.


Below is a perfect example from my last advacned "The art of polishing paint" class.

Note you won't see any pictures of anyone chemically stripping the paint AFTER using Menzerna SF 4500 and BEFORE machine applying Wolfgang Fuzion because we didn't do this step.




Pictures: The Art of Polishing Paint Advanced Detailing Classes



Jewelling
After removing the holograms, here's Mike and Derek jewelling the paint using Menzerna SF 4500 with some beta 6.5" Flat Gold Jewelling Pads on 600 RPM on Flex PE14's. I had the guys open the hood and wipe off all trace residues from the compounding and polishing steps as well as around all the trim because the thing I see everyone leave out when they talk about jewelling is the importance of working clean.

Machine Apply Wolfgang Fuzion
Next up we're going to machine apply Wolfgang Fuzion using soft blue Lake Country 5.5" Waxing Pads on DA Polishers. This really lays down an thin, uniform layer of wax. After the guys machine wax the entire car then we'll carefully wipe the wax off...

Microfiber Gloves
Every time I bring out the microfiber gloves for all our high end work and AFTER everyone uses them for the first time they see how well they really do work.

 

[Desertnate]

I'm looking for a little practical advice on this topic as it relates to the Klasse family of products.

The last time I read the AIO or SG bottle it talks about a "clean, dry surface", but doesn't say "fully stripped". I fully understand that SG won't bond real will if AIO isn't under it. My question centers around the surface conditions prior to AIO application.

I recently moved from the agricultural age and into the industrial age when I bought a DA polisher. After practicing on a "beater car" I'm ready to move on to one of the family daily drivers that needs some minor paint correction.

I'm planning on using Meguiars UP for the minor correction, but don't know if I should do a IPA/MS wipe down prior to applying the AIO. Does the Klasse AIO have enough cleaning action to remove the oils from the UP to ensure the SG bonds properly, or is a wipe down in order?

After reading Mike's great article on IPA mixing and usage, I'm a little hesitant to do a IPA/MS wipe down and would like to avoid it if possible.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I'm planning on using Meguiars UP for the minor correction, but don't know if I should do a IPA/MS wipe down prior to applying the AIO.

Does the Klasse AIO have enough cleaning action to remove the oils from the UP to ensure the SG bonds properly, or is a wipe down in order?

I'm not a chemist and I never try to play one on the forums so knowing 100% what a product like Klasse AIO will and won't do is hard to know for certain.

How old is the car? What condition is the paint?

Factory paint that is brand new is not very permeable, that is is is very solid or dense, the opposite of porous.

The point being, any polishing oils left over from the Meguiar's Ultimate Polish will be pretty much topical, that is on the very top of the surface. My guess is that the cleaning agents in the Klasse AIO will pretty much mix with these and then remove them when you wipe the Klasse AIO off. Just a guess.

After reading Mike's great article on IPA mixing and usage, I'm a little hesitant to do a IPA/MS wipe down and would like to avoid it if possible.

I'm not a big fan of wiping paint with IPA and state that in the article. If fact I state that I didn't even want to write the article in the first place and a year before I wrote it I put out a general request for ANYONE to write it.

The reason for writing it was because there were a handful of people that were always telling people to wipe their paint down with alcohol all the time without any real knowledge of what they were actually telling people to do. Kind of a no accountability no responsibility for what they were posting and telling other's to do with their paint.

After a year went by and no one took it upon themselves to write the article I finally did just to try to help protect people from making mistakes.

Here's the deal for decades now people have been using the Klasse Twins, that is applying the AIO first followed by the SG without any issues and in fact you'll find more success stories and positive testimonies about experience's with the twins than you'll find horror stories.

If it were me and my car's paint, I follow the tried and true plan...

 

[Desertnate]

How old is the car? What condition is the paint?

The vehicle is about nine months old and the paint is in pretty good shape except for some dealer installed swirls I'm going I'm going to attack.

The point being, any polishing oils left over from the Meguiar's Ultimate Polish will be pretty much topical, that is on the very top of the surface. My guess is that the cleaning agents in the Klasse AIO will pretty much mix with these and then remove them when you wipe the Klasse AIO off. Just a guess.

That was my thought too. My main goal is to avoid creating an oil/sealant stew the SG won't bond with.

I'm not a big fan of wiping paint with IPA and state that in the article. If fact I state that I didn't even want to write the article in the first place and a year before I wrote it I put out a general request for ANYONE to write it...After a year went by and no one took it upon themselves to write the article I finally did just to try to help protect people from making mistakes.

I could gather that from the tone of your writing. If you're reluctant, I'm going to be very hesitant. The next time I order up some products I may get a paint cleaner just to play it safe.

Here's the deal for decades now people have been using the Klasse Twins, that is applying the AIO first followed by the SG without any issues and in fact you'll find more success stories and positive testimonies about experience's with the twins than you'll find horror stories.

If it were me and my car's paint, I follow the tried and true plan...

I'm one of those folks who have been using it forever...about nine years now. However, this is the first time I am using it following a polish. In the past I've always gone from the clay straight to the AIO.

Thank you very much.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I couldn't agree more Mike! I actually have that Meguiar's link bookmarked for when discussions come up on the forums that relate to it. :dblthumb2:

The original article I wrote on MOL is good but I'd say this updated article is better, at least more in-depth.

I typically just give the car a good wash with a regular car soap after polishing. No IPA wipe downs for me. I actually feel like IPA and other similar solvents dry the paint out...just look what it does to your hands.

Yeah I've never been a big fan of IPA wipe downs. IPA doesn't work well as a lubricant so you risk marring the paint.

Since I wrote this article a few new products have been introduced to the market for cleaning the surface without the risk of marring it.

A "careful" wash job will accomplish the same goal as chemically stripping with IPA. The chemist at Meguiar's always used MS for their purposes and MS actually wipes pretty good but I rarely use it now days.

The only time I have been wiping cars down to prep the surface is for paint coatings like Opti-Coat and CQuartz, which is actually recommended by those manufacturers.

Exactly. Follow the manufacturer's directions. A few years ago I checked with Dr. David Ghodoussi about this topic and he said as long as you're using Optimum compounds and polishes you could use a water-dampened microfiber towel to wipe the paint down before using Opti-Coat.


One thing about clearcoat paints that I think a lot of people don't know or understand is they are not very porous, so there's not a lot hiding places for polishing oils and other substances to bury into and everything is pretty much topical or on the surface, so it doesn't take much to strip any residual polishing oils off the surface of clearcoat paints in great shape. Thus... as you say you do, a quality wash job should remove anything of any concern off the non-porous surface of a clearcoat finish.

Now old school single stage paints... their a completely different animale...

 

[IntricateDetails]

Mike, I remember you stating and showing pictures of how too high of IPA to water ratio can actually cause paint shrinkage as well. It seems like with the product technology boom that we have in today's detailing world, IPA is taking a back seat to better, albeit pricier, options. There are wash soaps and spray on products that will strip oils and LSP's safely and without much effort. For me, the bottle of IPA sits on the shelf collecting dust most of the time because I have other products that are safer and produce better overall results.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike, I remember you stating and showing pictures of how too high of IPA to water ratio can actually cause paint shrinkage as well.

I've had the factory clearcoat paint on a 2012 Camaro wrinkle when exposed too long to too high a concentration of IPA. Been there, done that.

It seems like with the product technology boom that we have in today's detailing world, IPA is taking a back seat to better, albeit pricier, options.

I agree, that's what's so cool about human beings, we're creative and capitalistic.

There are wash soaps and spray on products that will strip oils and LSP's safely and without much effort. For me, the bottle of IPA sits on the shelf collecting dust most of the time because I have other products that are safer and produce better overall results.

I agree. I use IPA for some things but a lot of times it's only because it's fast and easy as I have a couple bottles mixed up in the garage.

 

[Paul A.]

Here is, yet another, very informative discussion on the "science" of what we do. I love to understand more about the whys of effective methods and always enjoy the science side of it.

We are immersed in a lot of chemical interactions in what we do and the better i understand the physical nature of those things, the more i can apply the most effective practices.

The initial articles are unbelievably valuable and a huge thanks to Mike for sharing what he has spent a great deal of time learning. But then you go even further here by exposing it for us to learn and discuss and the discussions are just as valuable.

 

[Niblick]

i think that a big part of the issue is that people are grouping waxes and sealants in together, when in fact they are very different animals. waxes are generally far more forgiving in their nature than sealants, and whilst the latter will coat virtually anything, it is only as good as the product that it is bonded to. if thats the paint, great, if thats an oil based product, not so great. just my two cents worth

 

[2shiny]

Mike, when you say chemically stripping the paint will dull it. Do you mean with IPA or with a chemical paint cleaner as poorboys pro polish

 

[Niblick]

Mike, when you say chemically stripping the paint will dull it. Do you mean with IPA or with a chemical paint cleaner as poorboys pro polish

if i may.
IPA won't actually dull the paint itself, what it will do is remove anything that is enhancing the appearance of the paint. most polishes have a glaze/fillers of some kind to add gloss and hide swirls. when you use a product like IPA, these are removed and so any small defect in the paint becomes visible agin. its these existing swirls that dull the paint, not the IPA.

 

[ViGi]

I didn't know much about IPA but it was something that I never planed to use In my future projects. I'm in the prep period( chosing what will use and what no)

What about Eraser, no one mentionet in this article.

In to my head where somewhere is used the word IPA I change it with eraser, and everywhere that i may need IPA i will use eraser.

Am i wrong here.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Niblick]

thats absolutely fine bud, eraser is probably a better option tbh as its been designed specifically for the task. IPA is basically just pure alcohol, so a little bit of a blunt instrument. i use a body shop panel wipe. its cheaper then eraser, but more user friendly than a homemade IPA dilution.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Mike, when you say chemically stripping the paint will dull it.

Do you mean with IPA or with a chemical paint cleaner as poorboys pro polish

I mean with something like IPA. Poorboy's Pro Polish I believe is an actual polish not a chemical stripper?



For explaining topics on detailing discussion forums where some of the members can be a tick anal retentive, sometimes I find it best to put the explanation into EXTREMES to make a point as this tends to get through to the AR type people.

Here we go.... ask yourself,

Will wiping a clearcoated black finish look better and better if you wipe it with IPA over and over again or will it tend to look worse and worse?

Wiping polished paint with solvents doesn't tend to make them more and more clear or more and more beautiful.

 

[Niblick]

Surely that depends on how well it's been polished? and as the lsp will increase the gloss of the paint again, is it really an issue? Certainly having chemically clean paint allows sealants to bond better, thereby increasing their longevity; in fact it's a must with some nano sealants. I'm the first to admit that I can be a little anal when it comes to prep, but I've never thought of that as a bad thing tbh.

 

[PiPUK]

Mike, I remember you stating and showing pictures of how too high of IPA to water ratio can actually cause paint shrinkage as well. It seems like with the product technology boom that we have in today's detailing world, IPA is taking a back seat to better, albeit pricier, options. There are wash soaps and spray on products that will strip oils and LSP's safely and without much effort. For me, the bottle of IPA sits on the shelf collecting dust most of the time because I have other products that are safer and produce better overall results.

I would certainly be one of the main objectors when it comes to traditional methods of LSP stripping. I have posted at length about what surfactant residues can do. I have demonstrated that it is not at all difficult to wash a good LSP with 'soap' only for it to stop beading - that won't surprise you. What has proven more eye opening is that it is often possible to recover the beading with a more thorough rinse/use of hot water/wipe with IPA (yes, it actually recovers the beading, not strips it). This latter step has proven to be quite convincing and a search on the topic will show you that there are many converts to the theory and who will firmly agree that a good LSP is more than a little bit resistant to the majority of surfactant based products, but is pretty resilient in the face of solvent, including IPA, mineral spirits and even dedicated tar and glue removers. Many will now advocate that the only way to reliable remove a good sealant (I don't mean coating) is with mechanical means.

Mike did show the damage with IPA and we have discussed this before. Keep in mind that the damage occurred under the masked area so it was not solely down to the IPA. It was a combination of the IPA, the glue which it will have partly dissolved and also a greatly extended contact time resulting from the glue/IPA mix being trapped and not subject to the same rate of evaporation as the IPA on the panel. In my experience (which is not anything like as significant as Mike's), I have never seen IPA do any damage. I would note that I have seen more damage done by non-polar and organic solvents (like MS, IPA is polar and an alcohol) - these solvents will almost certainly eat through a non-professional repair job where IPA is not likely to touch them.

To my mind, MS is actually not adequately volatile for panel wiping. Actually, it is common that the polishing oils that are left behind after machining will be heavily MS biased so we should ask ourselves why wiping with more MS is going to improve matters. Most professional panel wipes will have more volatility because it means that they won't linger on the the surface for an extended period.