Need a little help!

[Rossu]

Hi all. I'm new to this forum, so hopefully my question is in the right place.

So, getting a little frustrated here. I just finished work on a black metallic VW Passat. Everything looked fine after compounding/polishing. But after the final wipedown, i noticed marring/holograms under lights/sun. They got slightly better after applying sealant, but are still there. I just don't know what the heck i'm.doing wrong. Have had this happen on two black cars in a row.

Just to clarify, i'll write up the steps of my work:

The car was washed properly.
Bug and Tar remover used.
No claying as the paint was smooth to the touch.
Compunding using random orbital, rupes green foam pad and 3M fast cut plus.
Polished using rupes yellow fine foam pad and 3M fine compund.
After correcting/polishing car was washed again.
Applied Meguiars M21 with random.orbital and ultra fine pad.
Final wipedown using quick detailer.

Now keep in mind, the paint was horrible at the beginning. And the goal was to make it better, not perfect so some swirls and deeper scratches remain. But the marring/holograms should NOT be there. And it seems like every time i wipe over the marring/holograms, it shifts and changes location/direction.

All help would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[fightnews]

Hi all. I'm new to this forum, so hopefully my question is in the right place.

So, getting a little frustrated here. I just finished work on a black metallic VW Passat. Everything looked fine after compounding/polishing. But after the final wipedown, i noticed marring/holograms under lights/sun. They got slightly better after applying sealant, but are still there. I just don't know what the heck i'm.doing wrong. Have had this happen on two black cars in a row.

Just to clarify, i'll write up the steps of my work:

The car was washed properly.
Bug and Tar remover used.
No claying as the paint was smooth to the touch.
Compunding using random orbital, rupes green foam pad and 3M fast cut plus.
Polished using rupes yellow fine foam pad and 3M fine compund.
After correcting/polishing car was washed again.
Applied Meguiars M21 with random.orbital and ultra fine pad.
Final wipedown using quick detailer.

Now keep in mind, the paint was horrible at the beginning. And the goal was to make it better, not perfect so some swirls and deeper scratches remain. But the marring/holograms should NOT be there. And it seems like every time i wipe over the marring/holograms, it shifts and changes location/direction.

All help would be appreciated. Thanks.

That sounds like to much product. Either to much wax or not removing all the polish. I would compound then wash then polish if you must wash because of compound dust.

 

[SWETM]

Could be that the car soap and m21 not working together. Which car soap do you use? Or as fightnews wrote to much product used or left behind.

You could do a test spot after you first wash a door or something and spray some tarminator on it. And see if you get the oily haze off. You could use a ipa wipe down instead of the tarminator. Use a quality mf towel that absorb the desolved polishing oils or the left overs from the protection.

 

[Rossu]

That sounds like to much product. Either to much wax or not removing all the polish. I would compound then wash then polish if you must wash because of compound dust.

I tested on a deep purple metallic today. Used professional grade silicone remover after polishing and applied m21. Still had light marring on top of the front fender line that i tested on. Not terribly visible, especially for someome who doesn't know what to look for, but still means that i am doing something wrong. M21 applied very thinly with a DA. This crap is getting depressing.

 

[FrankS]

...And it seems like every time i wipe over the marring/holograms, it shifts and changes location/direction.

If the marring/holograms are shifting and changing directions every time you wipe then it sounds like residue from Megs M21.

 

[Rossu]

If the marring/holograms are shifting and changing directions every time you wipe then it sounds like residue from Megs M21.

Okay, but how does it not come off? It's depressing that after hours of work, i have some damn marring on the paint. And btw using quick wax made things a lot worse.

Maybe i should try applying the M21 by hand with an applicator pad instead?

 

[FrankS]

Where are you located?

Maybe someone on the forum lives close by and can help you out.

 

[Rossu]

Where are you located?

Maybe someone on the forum lives close by and can help you out.

Yeaaaah... highly doubt that. I live in Estonia. A place no one knows the country that's right next to Finland, and that gave the world Skype.
But any pointers would be appreciated. Maybe i use too much polish and the silicone remover just doesn't remove all of it. So it stays under the sealant? Some say to wash the car using dish soap after polishing, which i don't know if its a good idea. I could might as well try the dish soap thing. Also try to use less polish, IPA wipedowns and applying sealant even thinner and by hand. I mean there's got to be a way

 

[briarpatch]

When you applied M21, was it in the shade or direct sunlight?

 

[Rossu]

When you applied M21, was it in the shade or direct sunlight?

In the shade. The paint was cool to the touch.
Maybe a proper wash AFTER applying the sealant?
Maybe it comes down to the MF towels i use? Not terribly expensive or high quality.

 

[986DTM]

I've had the same issue with certain waxes and polishes on dark cars. When it happens, spray wax (in my case D156) doesn't help the situation. It just seams to spread the smearing around. What I've found to work is doing a final wipe down with a detail spray. I usually use meguiars gold class qd if you want something with no wax in it or meguiars ultimate qd if you want something that has a bit of protection in it but any detail spray should do.

 

[FrankS]

Yeaaaah... highly doubt that. I live in Estonia. A place no one knows the country that's right next to Finland, and that gave the world Skype.
But any pointers would be appreciated. Maybe i use too much polish and the silicone remover just doesn't remove all of it. So it stays under the sealant? Some say to wash the car using dish soap after polishing, which i don't know if its a good idea. I could might as well try the dish soap thing. Also try to use less polish, IPA wipedowns and applying sealant even thinner and by hand. I mean there's got to be a way

Actually I have heard of Estonia. There's a detailer friend who lives close to me and is also a member of this forum from Estonia (antti@561detailing). Didn't know they gave the world Skype.

What kind or brand of random orbital are you using?

Not familiar with 3M Fine Compound but that may be too aggressive for the polishing step and is leaving DA haze or micro-marring. You may need to go with a polish instead of a compound. The yellow Rupes pad seems to be okay for the polishing step or you may want to try the white Rupes pad with a polish.

It could also be soft paint and your MF towels are marring the paint.

 

[Rossu]

Actually I have heard of Estonia. There's a detailer friend who lives close to me and is also a member of this forum from Estonia (antti@561detailing). Didn't know they gave the world Skype.

What kind or brand of random orbital are you using?

Not familiar with 3M Fine Compound but that may be too aggressive for the polishing step and is leaving DA haze or micro-marring. You may need to go with a polish instead of a compound. The yellow Rupes pad seems to be okay for the polishing step or you may want to try the white Rupes pad with a polish.

It could also be soft paint and your MF towels are marring the paint.

I'm using a generic harbor freight type random orbital with 9mm throw. The 3M Fine Compound is not the finest polish yes, being a compound actually. But would marring caused by the pad-polish combo or MF towels move around when i wipe over it?

 

[Rossu]

Actually I have heard of Estonia. There's a detailer friend who lives close to me and is also a member of this forum from Estonia (antti@561detailing). Didn't know they gave the world Skype.

What kind or brand of random orbital are you using?

Not familiar with 3M Fine Compound but that may be too aggressive for the polishing step and is leaving DA haze or micro-marring. You may need to go with a polish instead of a compound. The yellow Rupes pad seems to be okay for the polishing step or you may want to try the white Rupes pad with a polish.

It could also be soft paint and your MF towels are marring the paint.

Im using a cheap(er) kind of 9mm throw random orbital. But would marring caused by towels or pad shift around when i wipe over it?

 

[Rossu]

Actually I have heard of Estonia. There's a detailer friend who lives close to me and is also a member of this forum from Estonia (antti@561detailing). Didn't know they gave the world Skype.

What kind or brand of random orbital are you using?

Not familiar with 3M Fine Compound but that may be too aggressive for the polishing step and is leaving DA haze or micro-marring. You may need to go with a polish instead of a compound. The yellow Rupes pad seems to be okay for the polishing step or you may want to try the white Rupes pad with a polish.

It could also be soft paint and your MF towels are marring the paint.

Im using a 9mm throw random orbital. But would marring caused by towels or pads shift around when wiped?

 

[itsgn]

No claying as the paint was smooth to the touch.

That doesn't mean it didn't have contaminants embedded, especially that you said it had deep scratches, which are the perfect place for these to hide. Then when you machine polished the paint, the contaminants got lose, caught up in the pad, and messed up your finish.

Also, if you didn't use "virgin" high quality microfiber towels for the wipe down prior to and after polish, these could also contribute to holograming and marring, as previously used towels - even if washed - could contain any kind of contamination, even if they appear perfectly clean.

One more thing is, that if you worked on high rotation and low moving speeds, the paint and the polish you were working with might have heated up too much, temporarily closing and hiding the tiniest scratches in the paint surface (see thermal expansion). Then when you finished polishing, and the paint cooled down, these tiny cracks (not discernible for the naked eye as scratches or defects, but none the less still being cracks in the paint) might have reappeared, creating the marring, holograming effect. Obviously the solution to making these disappear is to work at lower rotational speeds, but move the machine faster across the paint surface, to avoid heating it up.

The same thing could be also the results of you working at too high ambient temperatures, or for too long, and the polish drying out. This could also result in the polish marring the surface, and the solution for that is to work at lower temperatures, or again, faster and short periods of time, to avoid the compound drying out.

If you have checked all these and still have marring and holograming, then I suggest you use either a wax or a conceptually similar filler sealant (like CarPro Essence Plus) to hide them. Obviously these will not last forever, but the paint wouldn't have stayed perfect either even if you'd have fully/successfully corrected/polished it in the first place - so there will be no big difference in the long term results.

 

[Rossu]

That doesn't mean it didn't have contaminants embedded, especially that you said it had deep scratches, which are the perfect place for these to hide. Then when you machine polished the paint, the contaminants got lose, caught up in the pad, and messed up your finish.

Also, if you didn't use "virgin" high quality microfiber towels for the wipe down prior to and after polish, these could also contribute to holograming and marring, as previously used towels - even if washed - could contain any kind of contamination, even if they appear perfectly clean.

One more thing is, that if you worked on high rotation and low moving speeds, the paint and the polish you were working with might have heated up too much, temporarily closing and hiding the tiniest scratches in the paint surface (see thermal expansion). Then when you finished polishing, and the paint cooled down, these tiny cracks (not discernible for the naked eye as scratches or defects, but none the less still being cracks in the paint) might have reappeared, creating the marring, holograming effect. Obviously the solution to making these disappear is to work at lower rotational speeds, but move the machine faster across the paint surface, to avoid heating it up.

The same thing could be also the results of you working at too high ambient temperatures, or for too long, and the polish drying out. This could also result in the polish marring the surface, and the solution for that is to work at lower temperatures, or again, faster and short periods of time, to avoid the compound drying out.

If you have checked all these and still have marring and holograming, then I suggest you use either a wax or a conceptually similar filler sealant (like CarPro Essence Plus) to hide them. Obviously these will not last forever, but the paint wouldn't have stay perfect either even if you'd have perfectly corrected it in the first place - so there will be no big difference in the long term results.

I typically use speed 5 for compounding and polishing. Arm speed relatively low, but always check the temperature of the surface with the back of my hand. Again, the defects i have are more like smears that shift and move around/change direction as i wipe over them. And as far as i know, holograms are inside the clearcoat, unable to shift around, as they are imbedded in to the clear. What i'm experiencing seems to be on the surface. Then again i can't be 100% certain.
I guess i could try higher quality MF towels and an ultra fine polish.

 

[itsgn]

And as far as i know, holograms are inside the clearcoat, unable to shift around, as they are imbedded in to the clear.

No. Holograms are caused by light defects in the clear coat, but not deeply buried in them, but right at the surface. So, it's not uncommon to be able to shift the direction of holograms, by simply wiping over them. Obviously, whether you can do that depends on whether the thing you're wiping over with is what caused them in the first place, and whether you can inflict the same type of superficial damage to the clear coat by wiping over the same area again.

But for ex. if you've caused holograms by wiping the paint with a dirty/dusty mf towel (or one with compound residue in them), then when you wipe over the same area, with about the same pressure, but now in a different direction than previously, you can usually see the holograms changing direction. That's because now you've "reordered" the surface defects/contaminant in a different way than there laid previously.

So, even though holograms might appear as the result of several things, they definitely do not signal the presence of something (or some defect) embedded deep in the clear coat. Deeper defects do not show as holograms, but either as distinct scratches (if they were caused by some mechanical impact) or staining/hazing/discoloration (if they were created by some chemical or thermal impact).

 

[Rossu]

No. Holograms are caused by light defects in the clear coat, but not deeply buried in them, but right at the surface. So, it's not uncommon to be able to shift the direction of holograms, by simply wiping over them. Obviously, whether you can do that depends on whether the thing you're wiping over with is what caused them in the first place, and whether you can inflict the same type of superficial damage to the clear coat by wiping over the same area again.

But for ex. if you've caused holograms by wiping the paint with a dirty/dusty mf towel (or one with compound residue in them), then when you wipe over the same area, with about the same pressure, but now in a different direction than previously, you can usually see the holograms changing direction. That's because now you've "reordered" the surface defects/contaminant in a different way than there laid previously.

So, even though holograms might appear as the result of several things, they definitely do not signal the presence of something (or some defect) embedded deep in the clear coat. Deeper defects do not show as holograms, but either as distinct scratches (if they were caused by some mechanical impact) or staining/hazing/discoloration (if they were created by some chemical or thermal impact).

Okay. Thnaks for clearing that up.
So basically i could try using a softer pad-polish combo to finish. Also using higher quality MF towels. And i guess IPA wipedowns would not hurt as well. Also lowering my machine speed and increasing arm speed when polishing.

 

[rlmccarty2000]

Sounds like you need a new fine polish to me. The way I read it was that the marring was there BEFORE you used the M21. 3M products are not talked about much here and when they are it’s about how they use old abrasive technology. VW paint can be on the hard side which in my experience can lead to marring if the right abrasives are not used. Mike Phillips swears the abrasive is the number one thing you need to get right in polishing. I would use the Rupes yellow polish with the Rupes yellow pad, it’s a proven combination. If it is your LSP and I read it wrong, change LSPs. Find something that works and keep using it.