Need Some Help Learning the MKII 21

[001jigsaw]

Hey everyone,

So I've been using the original PC 7424 for any and all customer's cars for the last 5 years. I've always achieved great results with it, and learned how to use the machine just right to get the results I needed. This usually consisted running the machine on 6, holding the machine firmly with little pressure. Once the compound broke down, I'd lower it to 4, and lay into it with jsut enough pressure to keep it rotating. This, usually, left me with results that I didn't even need to follow up with a finishing polish.

I bought the Rupes MKII 21 towards the end of last year, and I've had 2 chances to use it so far - once at the end of the season, and a few days ago since it has warmed up. Both times I've put it back down and picked up my 7424.

Using the MKII, Rupes Yellow pad, and Menzerna FG400, I was working on the door of a 2012 Camaro - fairly flat.I think I had the machine somewhere between 5-6. After spreading it around, I slowly moved across the panel. I noticed that, while viewing my reference line on the backing plate, that the machine was struggling to rotate sometimes, it even began rotating in reverse at one point. I never have a problem keeping my 7424 flat, but the the 21, apparently I do. After doing my "high speed" pass, I slowed the machine down and added a bit more pressure. Once I went to buff the remaining FG400 off, it was nearly baked on there. I had to really press the towel into the door to remove it, and it was a bit chalky. The pad surface felt warm and almost gummy. I also found that it hopped quite a bit with the Rupes yellow pad. I actually found it easier to use with the LC flat pads that I use on my PC. Perhaps I'm just not used to the machine, or the stiff Rupes pads. I'm also accustomed to using my PC as an all around tool, where I feel like the Rupes 21 isn't going to work well in some areas, like where the lower door meets the rocker panel and other tighter spots.

I'm definitely disappointed. To spend around $400 for a machine, and still reach for my old outdated PC is a bummer. But, I do understand that I have a lot of time on the PC, and plenty to learn about the Rupes - so I'm not giving up on it yet.

Tips and advice is much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[dlc95]

Your experience sounds very similar to mine.

One thing to consider is that therr is a pretty significant learning curve to these tools for operators such as ourselves.

There are two things that helped me acquaint myself with the Rupes tools.

1. Get Mike Phillips' book How To Use The Rupes Bigfoot Paint Polishing System. Mike Phillips? How to Use The RUPES Bigfoot Paint Polishing System

2. "Seat time". I believe Mike uses the phrase in his book, and it's true. The more time I spent using the "system" the more I experienced It's benefits. It took some patience and time to get last this point, but now that I understand the nuances, operation is a whole lot easier.

One thing you'll notice is that the pad spins much slower than PC. That's because the tool is doing a lot of work via it's orbit stroke. The longer side to side motion has a more dramatic effect on the paint than the small 8mm that we're used to. And when the pad spins in reverse, trust that work is still being done. The top opm on the Rupes is around 5000 at speed 6 where even the original PC 7424 is at 6000.

A lot of people will recommend inserting a washer to eliminate contact between the rubber shroud and the backing plate. This might help maintain rotation if you don't want to take the time to get the technique down. I've used the "washer mod" myself plenty of times. I'm not really a fan, and don't see any benefit from it.

As far as the FG400 acting funny on the paint, the 21 mm stroke works that compound a lot faster than the 7424. The heat will cause it to act that way sometimes . This even more so if you use your old LC flats. I find a lot more heat generated from the Rupes with my old Buff and Shine pads than I do with something that has a center vent hole.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I bought the Rupes MKII 21 towards the end of last year, and I've had 2 chances to use it so far - once at the end of the season, and a few days ago since it has warmed up. Both times I've put it back down and picked up my 7424.

I'm definitely disappointed. To spend around $400 for a machine, and still reach for my old outdated PC is a bummer. But, I do understand that I have a lot of time on the PC, and plenty to learn about the Rupes - so I'm not giving up on it yet.

Tips and advice is much appreciated. Thanks!

I have to make this quick as I have to pack for a private class and get a pallet shipped out for its destination by tomorrow. (and in the pallet is the entire RUPES "system")


First - the reason you find it easier to maintain pad rotation with a SHORT stroke free spinning orbital polisher and find it more difficult to maintain pad rotation with a LONG stroke free spinning orbital polisher has to do with the LEVERAGE the outer portion of the pad has over the reciprocating components of the tool.

I explain this in the paragraphs after the picture in this article.


The ghosting footprint and the actual footprint - Long Stroke Free Spinning Orbital Polishers



Pad stalling is definitely an issue to overcome with any brand of free spinning oribital, not just RUPES and the way you do this comes from practice, that is putting time behind the tool. Using the right pads, products and tool-holding-technique also help a lot.

I'm actually a fan of the RUPES BigFoot 21mm polisher and if I'm going to use a 21mm I usually choose this one and also normally use it with their white 7" pad and their Diamond Ultra Fine Gel Compound, (actually a polish but they call their polishes gel-compounds?)


The Menzerna FG400 is a GREAT compound that uses AMAZING abrasive technology, the most important factor in my opinion when buffing out car paint but it can be a bit sticky. I'd suggest practicing with the RUPES 7" white foam finishing pad and a more slippery product to get the FEEL for holding the RUPES polisher. You'll find more success maintaining pad rotation and as you become more experienced with using a long-throw free spinning tool you'll also become more skilled at using the tool.


In my how-to book I cover a lot of tips on simply how to HOLD the tool and that is simple stuff but sometimes the little things are the big things. (you can quote me on that)


Once you master the 21mm long stroke BigFoot you can make it as I like to say,

Dance on paint


Check out Louise - she attended my 3-day class and I taught her how to turn the RUPES 21mm BigFoot Mark II into a RUPES Bigfoot Nano with a 1" pad

How to turn a 7" pad into a 1" pad

On page 64 of my RUPES how-to book, I share how you can go up on edge with the RUPES BigFoot 21 and a 7" pad and the isolated pressure to only a small section of the edge of the paint will cause the pad to REVERSE ROTATE but --> maintain pad rotation, as in NOT stall out.

Once you understand this unique characteristic to this free spinning long stroke orbital polisher you discover this enables you to buff the paint along an edge or buff out a thin section of paint between a raised body line and an edge.

This technique is NOT for the timid. This technique is not something you want to learn on another person's toy or expensive car. I discovered this unique characteristic while buffing out the 1998 Ferrari 355 F1 Spyder shown on the cover of the RUPES book and discussed in the book back when I detailed this Ferrari for this project back in in 2014.

NOTE: It is vitally important that if you choose to use this technique that the Velcro on the backing plate and on the back of the buffing pad is NOT worn out. If the velcro is worn out, it's possible that when you go up on edge and put increased pressure to a small portion of and edge of the face of the pad that the force can cause the attachment between the two velcro surfaces to let go and the pad can fly off. It's happened to me and after it happened one time I always test the attachment strength of the two velcro surfaces before attempting this technique.


Going up on edge with a RUPES BigFoot 21

Not the hand positions to hold the tool

If you have a copy of my RUPES book you've seen and read about hand positions. Sometime, the last thing you want to do is hold the hand grip at the head of the tool as it block your view of what the pad is doing and where the pad is touching.

Focused attention....

Eyes on the target...

To read the entire story and see all the pictures - check this out...


Who attends a 3-day class at Autogeek at $1,800.00?

And our 3-day classes are now $1,495.00 to be equal with our Roadshow Classes on a per-day pricing structure.


Info and dates for all Mike Phillips Classes including the Roadshow Classes can be found here

 

[DBAILEY]

I would have done that section of the hood with a 3" pad on a 8mm stroke machine or 2" pad on the GG3. I know that edging the 21mm can be done, but why would you want to. Kills your pads.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I would have done that section of the hood with a 3" pad on a 8mm stroke machine or 2" pad on the GG3. I know that edging the 21mm can be done, but why would you want to. Kills your pads.

First - I've never seen it do any more damage to a 7" pad than any other use of the 7" pad. Due to their large pore size and lesser tensile strength, these pads wear out quickly.

Second - This is a learning class - I teach a TON of techniques while I have people in any class. Once the class is over so is my opportunity to work one-on-one with a person unless they take another class and actually a lot of people do take my classes over again.

Third - What if after a class a person only starts with ONE tool. Maybe the BigFoot 21mm polisher? They cant simply grab their 8mm polisher or their GG3. You can if you have them but you're way ahead of the curve. Most people start out with a single tool and if they get the detailing bug or detail for money - then they add more tools to their arsenal.


I see what you're saying and appreciate your asking. I just have a different agenda and that's to do a Brain Dump and a Technique Dump at all my classes. And.... the car came out looking absolutely amazing! Even with multiple people with all different backgrounds and skill and experience levels.

:xyxthumbs:

 

[Bruno Soares]

Also make sure your shroud is lubricated. Personally, I opt for the washer mod which allows the backing plate to spin freely and causes much less pad stalling.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Also make sure your shroud is lubricated.

I agree. Just wrote a simple article for this topic....


How to lubricate the shroud on long stroke polishers

 

[Eric@CherryOnTop]

My biggest thing when going from the porter cable to a long throw DA was that you don’t need the same amount of downward pressure, the long orbit of the machine does the work for you.

That, and maintaining a flat pad on the surface makes all the difference ( you would be surprised how “off” your pad angle can be when you think it’s actually flat)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Eldorado2k]

There’s definitely a learning curve with these long stroke polishers, but sometimes 1 can overthink it and that can lead to frustration.

1 thing that’s obviously different is pad size. Going from 5” pads on your 8mm polisher to 7” pads on a 21mm polisher is quite substantial, and with that comes alot of changes. You no longer have to be so tedious with the bigger polisher like you did with the smaller less powerful 8mm.

Bigger pads cover larger areas and they’ll also be able to knock out minor/moderate swirls with ease. You don’t really have to use much downward pressure compared to an 8mm.

I’ve found that the more you focus on whether or not the backing plate is spinning = the more likely it’ll stall because you’re just trying too hard to be perfect when in fact this machine makes work easier therefore working extra hard can actually be counterproductive.

I recommend taking it easy, taking advantage of the larger area that the bigger pads can cover and relying more on the results than whether or not the pad is spinning at all times. You’ll be surprised at its ability to remove light swirls even when it seemed like it wasn’t spinning the whole time.

Just because it’s your new expensive polisher doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed to be able to handle every situation, so keep a 3” backing plate on your small polisher and you’ll eventually learn when it’s time to use it. Side mirrors, B pillars, around sunroofs, bumpers, headlights, and of course the occasional curved body panel that can stall a long throw polisher. [i.e. this hood on a Nissan Altima]

 

[001jigsaw]

Thank you for the advice and tips everyone! Definitely going to check out Mike's book, and practice some more with it. Just bought some new stuff to try too, so I'm excited.

When I bought the 21, I bought the kit that came with Buff & Shine's UROTEC pads. Are these solid pads that I can start with? I also have a Rupes Yellow foam, Meguiars MF cutting pad, and B&S fiber pads.

Also just bought a 4" BP for the PC and some 4" pads. I have a 3" BP and pads for the PC as well, but they're a bit difficult to work with. The machine makes weird noises with the 3" if I bring it up to 4-5.. kind of like an impact gun.

 

[dlc95]

Thank you for the advice and tips everyone! Definitely going to check out Mike's book, and practice some more with it. Just bought some new stuff to try too, so I'm excited.

When I bought the 21, I bought the kit that came with Buff & Shine's UROTEC pads. Are these solid pads that I can start with? I also have a Rupes Yellow foam, Meguiars MF cutting pad, and B&S fiber pads.

Also just bought a 4" BP for the PC and some 4" pads. I have a 3" BP and pads for the PC as well, but they're a bit difficult to work with. The machine makes weird noises with the 3" if I bring it up to 4-5.. kind of like an impact gun.

Yes, those pads are great.

Make sure you have that compression washer installed! Very important!

The Compression Washer