New Car, New Leather??

Hi Rob4092xx,

Can you comment on the following from another leather expert?
Just trying to get to the bottom of weather the coating on leather is breathable or not

Stating that non-absorbent top-coated leather can’t absorb water and oils is a correct statement…almost. BUT, and this is important, there are other ways for oils to get ‘into’ the leather. First, there are stitching holes. Second, the urethane coating is susceptible to wear, degradation, micro cracks, etc. Third, a lot of leather seats are perforated…they have little holes in them for breathability. In addition, in the late 1950’s production of microporous polyurethane coatings appeared. Since then, solid, porous polyurethane finishes (permeable finishes) have been achieved that allow for water and oil transfer into (and out of) the leather. Hence, the stitching holes, micro-cracks, urethane degradation, perforated holes, and permeable urethane finishes do actually allow some oils and water to penetrate into the leather. Even with these facts, most people will argue that the leather hide is inaccessible for the purposes of maintenance…but evidence proves otherwise. A brand new leather seat with a non-absorbent coating will not absorb oil and water if it has a non-absorbent finish. But, then again, a brand new leather seat does not need to be conditioned immediately. So, in some sense, this is a moot point. A leather seat that is a few months old (or perforated) will have holes, cracks, etc. that will allow some degree of oil penetration into the leather hide. In addition, quality conditioning products contain an ‘oil-in-water’ emulsion…this emulsion allows oil molecules to attain a size that is permeable to the finish – hence, the oil can penetrate into the leather. There is no doubt that introducing oils into protected leather is a challenging process…but what alternative is there? And if you are wondering how the oils evaporate from the leather in the first place consider the fact that the backside of the leather is not protected. If you could take the leather from the seat and condition it from the backside then that would be wonderful – but this is not usually an option. Still have doubts? Look at the stitching holes in leather that has aged some…you will most likely see tiny cracks around the stitching holes…this is exactly where the oils have evaporated over time leaving the leather dry and brittle.
Notice the microcracks forming at the stitching points on this leather seat.
​
The next obvious question is…”OK, I sort of believe you…now what do I use to condition Type P leather?” Well, first and foremost, don’t use conditioning products formulated for non-protected Type A leather on Type P protected leather –this a mistake. A lot of leather care product manufacturers put the same oils in their Type A leather care products as their Type P leather care products…and the oils in the Type A products simply sit on the surface of Type P leather and attract dust, dirt, etc. Likewise, don’t use conditioning products formulated for Type P protected leather on non-protected Type A leather unless the manufacturer states that it’s OK. Also, don’t use products that contain Neatsfoot oil, lanolin, mink oil, collagen, or aloe…these products do not have a place in the conditioning of Type P leather and most of them will leave a very greasy film on the surface. While it was easy to recommend ‘cleaning’ products, I can’t easily recommend ‘conditioning’ products. In order to properly condition Type P protected leather you will have to spend the extra money and utilize products from Leatherique, The Leather Doctor, Advanced Leather Solutions, etc…these are the companies that ‘understand’ leather – at least in my mind. Keeping your leather clean and conditioned will rejuvenate it, return the softness and flexibility that it once had, help it to resist cracking, and provide some level of wear resistance.
 
So I have noticed that water and leather cleaner do not 'bead' as much as I expected. Water seems to soak in a bit and the seat/leather does retain that damp look once wiped dry until the moisture evaporates. I've had seats where you just wipe it off and it's dry, but these didn't. Interesting.
 
Since they are new and you want them to stay that way try a coating from CarPro or Gyeon. Ultima has a good product also.
 
Do whatever you think is best and what your experience has proven. I am commenting on my reserach and experience with the dozens of cars I have owned over the years. I have treated the leather in my Ford Expedition, C6 Corvette, Ferrari 360 and Lamborghini Gallardo with incredible results. The leather in all four look amazing after all these years.

Just another thought. Do you have a leather couch at home? If you do, when was the last time you "conditioned" it? I suspect never. I also suspect it still looks like new. How can this be if you believe a conditioner must be used to keep it looking like new? The couch has "stitching" holes like the leather seats in your car. Just something to think about.

jackog1 said:
Hi Rob4092xx,

Can you comment on the following from another leather expert?
Just trying to get to the bottom of weather the coating on leather is breathable or not

Stating that non-absorbent top-coated leather can’t absorb water and oils is a correct statement…almost. BUT, and this is important, there are other ways for oils to get ‘into’ the leather. First, there are stitching holes. Second, the urethane coating is susceptible to wear, degradation, micro cracks, etc. Third, a lot of leather seats are perforated…they have little holes in them for breathability. In addition, in the late 1950’s production of microporous polyurethane coatings appeared. Since then, solid, porous polyurethane finishes (permeable finishes) have been achieved that allow for water and oil transfer into (and out of) the leather. Hence, the stitching holes, micro-cracks, urethane degradation, perforated holes, and permeable urethane finishes do actually allow some oils and water to penetrate into the leather. Even with these facts, most people will argue that the leather hide is inaccessible for the purposes of maintenance…but evidence proves otherwise. A brand new leather seat with a non-absorbent coating will not absorb oil and water if it has a non-absorbent finish. But, then again, a brand new leather seat does not need to be conditioned immediately. So, in some sense, this is a moot point. A leather seat that is a few months old (or perforated) will have holes, cracks, etc. that will allow some degree of oil penetration into the leather hide. In addition, quality conditioning products contain an ‘oil-in-water’ emulsion…this emulsion allows oil molecules to attain a size that is permeable to the finish – hence, the oil can penetrate into the leather. There is no doubt that introducing oils into protected leather is a challenging process…but what alternative is there? And if you are wondering how the oils evaporate from the leather in the first place consider the fact that the backside of the leather is not protected. If you could take the leather from the seat and condition it from the backside then that would be wonderful – but this is not usually an option. Still have doubts? Look at the stitching holes in leather that has aged some…you will most likely see tiny cracks around the stitching holes…this is exactly where the oils have evaporated over time leaving the leather dry and brittle.
Notice the microcracks forming at the stitching points on this leather seat.
​
The next obvious question is…”OK, I sort of believe you…now what do I use to condition Type P leather?” Well, first and foremost, don’t use conditioning products formulated for non-protected Type A leather on Type P protected leather –this a mistake. A lot of leather care product manufacturers put the same oils in their Type A leather care products as their Type P leather care products…and the oils in the Type A products simply sit on the surface of Type P leather and attract dust, dirt, etc. Likewise, don’t use conditioning products formulated for Type P protected leather on non-protected Type A leather unless the manufacturer states that it’s OK. Also, don’t use products that contain Neatsfoot oil, lanolin, mink oil, collagen, or aloe…these products do not have a place in the conditioning of Type P leather and most of them will leave a very greasy film on the surface. While it was easy to recommend ‘cleaning’ products, I can’t easily recommend ‘conditioning’ products. In order to properly condition Type P protected leather you will have to spend the extra money and utilize products from Leatherique, The Leather Doctor, Advanced Leather Solutions, etc…these are the companies that ‘understand’ leather – at least in my mind. Keeping your leather clean and conditioned will rejuvenate it, return the softness and flexibility that it once had, help it to resist cracking, and provide some level of wear resistance.
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Yes, this is true. What is your point? I can tell you I have received dozens of private messages from folks who have thanked me for this post so I just keep sharing it. Why don't you research an issue and share it with us?

The Guz said:
I can see you have this write up saved to copy and paste it in most of the leather threads that come up.
Click to expand...
 
well after much debate, I went ahead and decided to condition the interior surfaces. Thanks to the discussions in this thread, my interior just does not seem to have any coating or sealant on the leather. I know this seems unlikely on a brand new modern vehicle, but it just didn't. Water did not bead and roll right off. I tried a little test spot with the chosen conditioner and it also did not act like any treated/sealed/coated leather I had ever worked on. I've seen leather where the conditioner just sat on top and never really soaked or worked into the surface and had to be buffed try to remove it from sitting on the surface. Even still, I recall being left with a greasy feeling surface from the conditioner being left on the surface. This was not the case on my test spot. The material soaked in with literally almost zero product left sitting on the surface. It took an extremely little amount of buffing just to knock the top edges off the surface to leave the appearance even. Left a very very nice, satin, finish. Zero greasy remains from the product. I debated for a long time, but no regrets.
 
Galaxy....you did exactly what I would do if the conditioner soaked in! I believe it will make untreated leather last longer. It is just that I have never had a car with untreated leather in the past ten years or so.

galaxy said:
well after much debate, I went ahead and decided to condition the interior surfaces. Thanks to the discussions in this thread, my interior just does not seem to have any coating or sealant on the leather. I know this seems unlikely on a brand new modern vehicle, but it just didn't. Water did not bead and roll right off. I tried a little test spot with the chosen conditioner and it also did not act like any treated/sealed/coated leather I had ever worked on. I've seen leather where the conditioner just sat on top and never really soaked or worked into the surface and had to be buffed try to remove it from sitting on the surface. Even still, I recall being left with a greasy feeling surface from the conditioner being left on the surface. This was not the case on my test spot. The material soaked in with literally almost zero product left sitting on the surface. It took an extremely little amount of buffing just to knock the top edges off the surface to leave the appearance even. Left a very very nice, satin, finish. Zero greasy remains from the product. I debated for a long time, but no regrets.
Click to expand...
 
Rob4092xx said:
Do whatever you think is best and what your experience has proven. I am commenting on my reserach and experience with the dozens of cars I have owned over the years. I have treated the leather in my Ford Expedition, C6 Corvette, Ferrari 360 and Lamborghini Gallardo with incredible results. The leather in all four look amazing after all these years.

Just another thought. Do you have a leather couch at home? If you do, when was the last time you "conditioned" it? I suspect never. I also suspect it still looks like new. How can this be if you believe a conditioner must be used to keep it looking like new? The couch has "stitching" holes like the leather seats in your car. Just something to think about.
Click to expand...

Your couch at home is not subjected to extreme temp changes or uv rays as a vehicle is.If you took your dash board out and put it in your living room for 50 years it would not crack either.
 
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