Observations on Sealants

mafollosco

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Hi,

I hope you could shed some light to my observations and curiosity.

1. I have Pinnacle Liquid Souveran wax and used it to remove some mild scratches and road film by hand and it worked. Does this mean it has cleaners with it?

2. Since the label of Pinnacle Liquid Souveran states that it has polymers and is classified as a hybrid, does that mean it is also a sealant with less concentration?

3. I have Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0 and used it to remove mild scratches and road film by hand and it worked. Does this mean it has cleaners?

4. I also tried Turtle Wax Platinum Liquid Wax and even their quick detailer and was able to remove road film. Does this mean it has cleaners?

5. Is it safe to conclude that sealants that are in liquid/semi suspension form contains cleaners while sealant in spray form such as Opti Seal do not?

6. Is there really a need for claying if you are using a DA? I've noticed I was taking out a lot of dirt when I use a DA whether in polishing or applying waxes. Can that substitute that? (ofcourse clean pad regularly or replace it every few panels)

7. How am I going to classify Optimum Finish Polish? can I use it as a cleaner polish before applying sealants? How often do you think is safe? will using it 4 times a year over 10 years ruin my paint?

8. How will I classify Blacklight? AIO?

9. Knowing that paint is porous and polishing oils go to cracks, holes and crevices of the paint and only a few remain in the surface and since upon observation that almost all cleans, is it safe to assume that almost all sealant and waxes can clean oils thus I do not need a wipe down after polishing to prevent marring?

10. Is it right to conclude that when you want to seal, always use by hand and foam because if you use aggressive applicator, more pressure or use it via DA, it will clean the surface and remove what is on the paint?

11. Since I've been through this trial and error too long and have a handful of inventories for an enthusiast, I just want to make it simple. Here is the plan I intend to do. What's your take? I only plan on using my M205 only when needed.
-clay and polish with Optimum Finish on finishing pad 1x a year
-apply Blacklight via DA on finishing pad to fill in those imperfections
-apply Opti Seal

12. As a maintenance and will do it every three months
-no clay & no polish
-apply Blacklight/Pinnacle Liquid Souveran/Wolfgang Deep Gloss Sealant 3.0 via DA on finishing pad to clean and somehow to glaze & correct minor imperfections
-apply Opti Seal

Thanks Mike and to those who would want to chime in. I hope you can enlighten me with these questions and observations.

Regards,
Marc
 
I'm going to save this for others, but I'll say I don't think those products are cleaning like you think. They contain solvents and probably some fillers so you're probably seeing that. But not sure why you're applying these products to dirty paint?
 
6. Is there really a need for claying if you are using a DA? I've noticed I was taking out a lot of dirt when I use a DA whether in polishing or applying waxes. Can that substitute that? (ofcourse clean pad regularly or replace it every few panels)

7. How am I going to classify Optimum Finish Polish? can I use it as a cleaner polish before applying sealants? How often do you think is safe? will using it 4 times a year over 10 years ruin my paint?

8. How will I classify Blacklight? AIO?

9. Knowing that paint is porous and polishing oils go to cracks, holes and crevices of the paint and only a few remain in the surface and since upon observation that almost all cleans, is it safe to assume that almost all sealant and waxes can clean oils thus I do not need a wipe down after polishing to prevent marring?

10. Is it right to conclude that when you want to seal, always use by hand and foam because if you use aggressive applicator, more pressure or use it via DA, it will clean the surface and remove what is on the paint?

11. Since I've been through this trial and error too long and have a handful of inventories for an enthusiast, I just want to make it simple. Here is the plan I intend to do. What's your take? I only plan on using my M205 only when needed.
-clay and polish with Optimum Finish on finishing pad 1x a year
-apply Blacklight via DA on finishing pad to fill in those imperfections
-apply Opti Seal

12. As a maintenance and will do it every three months
-no clay & no polish
-apply Blacklight/Pinnacle Liquid Souveran/Wolfgang Deep Gloss Sealant 3.0 via DA on finishing pad to clean and somehow to glaze & correct minor imperfections
-apply Opti Seal

Thanks Mike and to those who would want to chime in. I hope you can enlighten me with these questions and observations.

Regards,
Marc

1-5 I have no clue why you would try those on dirty paint with road film on it, so I am going to ignore those questions and state that you are asking for trouble by doing so.

6. You will be polishing contaminates into the paint thus increasing your chances significantly of marring.

7. Should be fine couple with a finishing pad or lighter.

8. Yes it's a glaze/sealant so AIO.

9. That wipedown is not about marring, it is down to remove the polish oils so that he LSP will bond properly to the paint..

10. You can apply sealant by machine, your paint should already be free of anything else on the paint when you are sealing it.

11. Sounds fine.

12. Baggie test first if it is smooth fine, no clay, if it isn't smooth then yes clay!

Black light is the only one that will do any correcting or hiding out of the three listed.

Hope that helps.
 
Products such as Wolfgang DGPS do not have cleaning properties. The cleaning action you say that you are experiencing is rated to whatever media you are using to apply the product with. Of course if you apply any liquid, even water, to a dirty surface, agitate, and wipe it you will get some cleaning action.

As Chris said, these products are meant to be used over clean surfaces, not dirty. Your paint should be cleaned with the right products before the wax or sealant is applied. IMO, polishing is not a replacement for claying. If you clay first, you will remove the grime before the polishing step, your pads will stay much cleaner, and you will reduce the risk marring the paint because you will have removed contaminates that would get onto your polishing pad.
 
1-5 I have no clue why you would try those on dirty paint with road film on it, so I am going to ignore those questions and state that you are asking for trouble by doing so.

:iagree:
 
If you apply Wolfgang DGPS as your main sealant you should be good for at least 6 months of protection without having to worry about doing much in the way of topping it. Just do maintenance washes and you will be good to go.
 
Thank you sir for taking this from PM's to the forum and welcome to AutogeekOnline!

:welcome:


Hi,

I hope you could shed some light to my observations and curiosity.

1. I have Pinnacle Liquid Souveran wax and used it to remove some mild scratches and road film by hand and it worked. Does this mean it has cleaners with it?

There are no cleaners or abrasives in this product. It is what in this industry called a pure wax or what I call a finishing wax.

Assuming you're working on a modern clearcoat finish, (hard), and not a soft lacquer single stage paint, I'm not sure how it could really remove enough paint to level the top surface of the surrounding paint to the lowest depths of the scratches you're removing.

This type of procedure is hard enough to do with an actual compound let a long a non-cleaning wax.

If these scratches are just topical, then my guess is the wax just clear up the surface and made it look like they've' been removed.

That said, if you can this product to remove paint as that's how your remove scratches, more power to you.


2. Since the label of Pinnacle Liquid Souveran states that it has polymers and is classified as a hybrid, does that mean it is also a sealant with less concentration?

Yes. The majority of products on the market are hybrids or what I call blended products and this is actually a benefit to the user as instead of getting only the benefits from a single ingredient, (Carnauba Wax), you get the benefits from multiple ingredients. Thus a good chemist creates a hybrid or blended product.

I actually explain this topic, blended waxes, as well as pure waxes and cleaner/waxes in detail in this article.



The Difference Between a Cleaner/Wax and a Finishing Wax
Subtitle: How To Choose The Right Wax or Paint Sealant for your Detailing Project


Here's a small portion of the article...

Cleaner/Waxes
A product that cleans, polishes and protects and contains natural protection ingredients like Carnauba

Cleaner/Sealants
A product that cleans, polishes and protects and uses all synthetic protection ingredients

Finishing Waxes
A product that offers no cleaning ability with the focus on maximizing beauty with the protection based upon naturally occurring ingredients.

Finishing Sealants
A product that offers no cleaning ability with the focus on maximizing beauty with the protection based upon synthetic ingredients.

Hybrids
There's one more group into which waxes and sealant fall into and that would be the hybrid category. Hybrids contain a combination of both natural and synthetic ingredients.

If we use the loose definition above for car waxes and paint sealants, (For the wax group the primary protection ingredients are naturally occurring waxy substances and for the sealant group the primary protection ingredients are man-made or synthetic substances), then since hybrid products use a combination of both it would seem natural to group them and place them into their own category with both words, wax and sealant used to describe the category.






3. I have Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant 3.0 and used it to remove mild scratches and road film by hand and it worked. Does this mean it has cleaners?

No cleaners, no abrasives. See my answer above and here's an article I wrote that also relates to this topic.


Factors that affect how aggressive or non-aggressive a product is




4. I also tried Turtle Wax Platinum Liquid Wax and even their quick detailer and was able to remove road film. Does this mean it has cleaners?

I've never used this product but most retail waxes do contain some type of cleaner in them and I explain why in this article.



The Difference Between a Cleaner/Wax and a Finishing Wax
Subtitle: How To Choose The Right Wax or Paint Sealant for your Detailing Project



From the above article,

When you go to your local auto parts stores, most of the retail waxes on the shelves do in fact fall into the cleaner/wax category as they are targeted at the average person and the average person is driving what we call a Daily Driver, that is the car they drive back and forth to work each day and most of the time it’s parked outside. Over time, the finish quality deteriorates and in order to restore it with just a single product you’ll want a cleaner/wax.



5. Is it safe to conclude that sealants that are in liquid/semi suspension form contains cleaners while sealant in spray form such as Opti Seal do not?

In my opinion "no".

Depends on the type of product and the brand.


6. Is there really a need for claying if you are using a DA? I've noticed I was taking out a lot of dirt when I use a DA whether in polishing or applying waxes. Can that substitute that? (of course clean pad regularly or replace it every few panels)

Great question and one I've answered for the last 10 to 12 years on discussion forums. Here's the deal...

The most effective way to remove above surface bonded contaminants is though a dedicated mechanical process focused just on removing the contaminants. This can include detailing clay or tools like the Nanosking Mitts, Towels or Pads.

Some contaminants will come off when buffed. Some won't. depends on the contaminant and the strength of the bond it has to the paint. That's why when I type out answers to questions like you ask I pick and choose my words very carefully.

The above word in my answer effective is bold and italicized on purpose. You see I'm never going to say that buffing paint with a foam pad won't remove contaminant as it will. But the MOST EFFECTIVE way is to do so using a procedure that's focused on just this task.

The beneficial feature with foam pads is they are GENTLE to the paint. We like this characteristic as most of us are trying to create a beautiful finish. The problem with this feature is that they will tend to conform and glide over some contaminants... not remove them.

Now a wool cutting pad on a rotary buffer with a compound will remove contaminants but that's a much more aggressive combination than say a foam pad on a Porter Cable.

Also, if you've never done the baggie test, perhaps try it over paint that you know is contaminated, that is before you buff on it you can feel contaminants and the re-inspect using the baggie test. The paint should feel 100% flat after buffing or buffing isn't working.

One thing I know for sure, using foam pads and any tool would never have 100% removed all the yellow paint overspray off this 1947 Chevy Truck.


I can't speak for other but as for my criteria... if the paint has contaminants and it's my project I want the contaminants off the paint and the most effective way to remove contaminants off paint is by using a dedicated mechanical decontamination process.

How to remove overspray paint using the Cyclo Polisher


Color Ghosting

Here's the before pictures, if you look carefully you can see YELLOW GHOSTING outlining all the perimeters of the green body panels...

1949_Chevy_Truck_005.jpg


1949_Chevy_Truck_006.jpg




After the overspray paint has been removed...

When I look at the after pictures the yellow color ghosting is gone...


1949_Chevy_Truck_096.jpg


1949_Chevy_Truck_082.jpg





7. How am I going to classify Optimum Finish Polish? can I use it as a cleaner polish before applying sealants? How often do you think is safe? will using it 4 times a year over 10 years ruin my paint?

Optimum Finish Polish is a Fine Cut Polish. See this article or my how-to book.

Word Definitions - Compounds, Polishes, Glazes, Paint Cleaners and Waxes




8. How will I classify Blacklight? AIO?


The acronym AIO stands for All In One and it means the product is a one-step cleaner/wax or cleaner/sealant. That is a product that will

Clean or abrade the paint.
Polish the paint that is maximize gloss and clarity
Seal the paint with some type of protection ingredients.

When I look at the webpage on the AG store for this product I see no where that it states it's an AIO.

Chemical Guys Black Light Hybrid Radiant Finish


The description for the product reads like it's a pure or non-cleaning product.


I've heard there is now a CG forum, not sure how busy it is but you could check with CG people for their official answer as to whether the blacklight product is an AIO or not and if it is then I'm always open to learning new information. I consider myself a,

Perpetual Student

As I've typed many times on this forum. Too much new technology being introduced all the time for anyone to ever think they can know it all. In my humble opinion.



9. Knowing that paint is porous and polishing oils go to cracks, holes and crevices of the paint and only a few remain in the surface and since upon observation that almost all cleans, is it safe to assume that almost all sealant and waxes can clean oils thus I do not need a wipe down after polishing to prevent marring?

No I don't think you can assume this. Modern clearcoats are very non-porous or impermeable. The can become more opened up with time, exposure and improper treatment.

Old fashioned, solvent-evaporation lacquers and enamels are impermeable, that is they are porous. Not like a sponge but a heck of a lot more open than a new, modern clearcoat.


10. Is it right to conclude that when you want to seal, always use by hand and foam because if you use aggressive applicator, more pressure or use it via DA, it will clean the surface and remove what is on the paint?

No, at least not in my opinion.

I try my hardest to do EVERYTHING by machine and get my hand completely out of the pictures. When I seal a surface by machine I start by using a very soft foam pad, a light touch, a slow speed and a non-cleaning product unless I'm doing a one-step production detailing with an AIO or one-step cleaner/wax and then I use a high speed, firm downward pressure and an actual cleaner/wax or cleaner/sealant for those of you on the AR side. I do try to use the softest pad I can get away with as this is the secret to doing production work and I teach a class on this topic.


11. Since I've been through this trial and error too long and have a handful of inventories for an enthusiast, I just want to make it simple.

Here is the plan I intend to do. What's your take? I only plan on using my M205 only when needed.
-clay and polish with Optimum Finish on finishing pad 1x a year
-apply Blacklight via DA on finishing pad to fill in those imperfections
-apply Opti Seal

Optimum Finish is a Fine Cut Polish and so is M205. So you're comparing apples to apples as far as cut goes.

Second,

IF Blacklight IS and AIO and I don't know that it is but IF it is, then using it after any fine cut polish would be redundant.

If Blacklight is NOT an AIO but a non-cleaning finishing type product, then following with Opti-Seal is redundant but lots of people like to do what's called topping, that is apply one form of protection over a previously applied version of protection. It might not help but it likely won't hurt.


12. As a maintenance and will do it every three months
-no clay & no polish
-apply Blacklight/Pinnacle Liquid Souveran/Wolfgang Deep Gloss Sealant 3.0 via DA on finishing pad to clean and somehow to glaze & correct minor imperfections

Again, I don't believe these products are able to abrade paint. You could use them as lubricants and a really aggressive cutting pad and the cutting pad can abrade the paint but in and of themselves I do not believe these products are abrasive with the ability to abrade and level paint. I believe they can create a very clear finish when machine applied and this can act to mask very shallow defects and to the untrained eye appear to have removed them.


-apply Opti Seal

See my answer about this above for question #11



Thanks Mike and to those who would want to chime in. I hope you can enlighten me with these questions and observations.

Regards,
Marc


Don't know if I helped or shed any light, the above is just my take on your questions....



:)
 
Not sure if you're new to the forum world or a seasoned vet at this stuff but here's an article I wrote about asking questions. It's only meant in the friendliest way for you and everyone that will read this thread into the future.


A tip to help yourself get great answers when you start a thread



I'm pretty good at using the Editor Mode available in vBulletin to break-up and dissect long posts with lots of questions and in fact, even wrote an article to show others how to do this....


How to use the "Editor Mode" to break a single quoted message up into smaller quoted sections



But not everyone is good at this or knows how to do this and the effect is you get less replies or stated another way... you get less help.

If the goal of joining a forum and asking questions is to get help then what I write in this article helps you to help yourself and the article explains why in detail.


A tip to help yourself get great answers when you start a thread



:dblthumb2:
 
8. Yes it's a glaze/sealant so AIO.


Black light is the only one that will do any correcting or hiding out of the three listed.


I just read the AG page for this product and no where does it list it contains

  • Cleaning agents
  • Abrasives
Can you point to a source that verifies it's a cleaner/wax or cleaner/sealant?


I'm not doubting you I just have not seen any official source that states its a one-step cleaner/wax.


:dunno:
 
Thank you very much for all your replies. I am just new to detailing my cars and my family's cars (around 3 years). I am also days old of this forum but have read quite a few threads of Sir Mike including some of those that was re-stated in this thread. I am just a hobbyist by the way. I kinda have a clue to the answers to my questions but I would like to hear what you guys think of my observation.

First, I also believe that there are no abrasives with Pinnacle and Wolfgang Sealant but I really think chemically because of it's vehicle/medium, it kinda chemically cleans the surface to adhere? Your thoughts?

Regarding the scratches, those are very small and fine to begin with. Foam pads via hand did not correct it but a MF applicator did, I'm sure with that. I did IPA wipe down twice to verify and checked it under my worklight and under the sun. I guess it really was because of the applicator.

Regarding the Blacklight question, I really don't know that's why I asked. I always get different answers. Website classifies it as a glaze while the directions said "when used as an AIO". To be safe, I'll use it as my glaze to fill and mask imperfections since I don't intend to fully correct the surfaces.

Question regarding Optimum Finish, I just asked it because I read from a thread of Sir Mike siting M205 as Fine Finishing while Optimum Finish is Ultra Fine. I'm leaning towards the least aggressive product.

Regarding claying, I know it is necessary. Just thinking of short cuts? I do my vehicles per panel every weekends and in a rush. Claying and washing again makes me feel lazy most specially I'm working with SUVs.

Thanks again guys. :)
 
First, I also believe that there are no abrasives with Pinnacle and Wolfgang Sealant but I really think chemically because of it's vehicle/medium, it kinda chemically cleans the surface to adhere? Your thoughts?

:)

I think that when you apply anything to dirty paint, it will make it look cleaner.

I can poor milk on my paint and wipe it off and it'll be clean, doesn't mean it is right:xyxthumbs:
 
I just read the AG page for this product and no where does it list it contains

  • Cleaning agents
  • Abrasives
Can you point to a source that verifies it's a cleaner/wax or cleaner/sealant?


I'm not doubting you I just have not seen any official source that states its a one-step cleaner/wax.


:dunno:
I copied this from CG's description:

Since I’ve worked with Black Light for so long, and have had discussions with the behind-the-scenes people in charge of designing this formula, I can tell you another use for this product that you won’t read on the label, or in other product reviews…it also makes a great All-In-One (cleaner, polish, sealant). Black Light contains very fine abrasives in the formula to help clean and lightly polish the surface while it’s adding gloss and protection. So if your car (or customer’s car) is a bit needy, but a major paint correction detail isn’t on the menu or budget, then you can reach for an incredibly easy to use product like Black Light for the job. I’ve taken worn-out cars and given them a quick application of Black Light, and have been stunned by the difference that it made in such a short amount of time. And to further define “short amount of time”, I mean just 30 minutes with a D/A polisher! Not only will you get light correction and color/gloss enhancement, but you’re completing it with a layer of durable protection at the same time.
 
I think that when you apply anything to dirty paint, it will make it look cleaner.

I can poor milk on my paint and wipe it off and it'll be clean, doesn't mean it is right:xyxthumbs:

Hehe... I tried Ultime Waterless wash on that area, it didn't clean the dark areas inside the crack. The sealants and waxes did.
 
I think that when you apply anything to dirty paint, it will make it look cleaner.

I can poor milk on my paint and wipe it off and it'll be clean, doesn't mean it is right:xyxthumbs:

I agree you are cleaning it with the media you are using to apply the product.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using AG Online
 
Hehe... I tried Ultime Waterless wash on that area, it didn't clean the dark areas inside the crack. The sealants and waxes did.

If ultima didn't clean it then like I said either your media did or the sealant/wax is hiding it.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using AG Online
 
Oh by the way, I'd like to clarify that I did not apply the product on dirty paint. I applied it on a washed car. Unfortunately, it was white and some road film cannot be removed by washing alone. :)
 
I copied this from CG's description:

Since I’ve worked with Black Light for so long, and have had discussions with the behind-the-scenes people in charge of designing this formula, I can tell you another use for this product that you won’t read on the label, or in other product reviews…

it also makes a great All-In-One (cleaner, polish, sealant).

Black Light contains very fine abrasives in the formula to help clean and lightly polish the surface while it’s adding gloss and protection.


So it's a cleaner/wax or cleaner/sealant. (For the recored, I refer to all products that clean, polish and protect generically by calling them all cleaner/waxes.

Getting to the point where I have to type out the word cleaner/sealant because the protection ingredients are synthetic instead of natural is just a wee bit on the anal retentive side even for me.



And like I said, I'm open to learning new information. Perpetual student and all that stuf.... :laughing:


I have not used this product, probably because I had know idea it is a cleaner/wax. We have quite a few cleaner/waxes around here and they all pretty much do the same thing, that is,

  1. Clean
  2. Polish
  3. Protect
I mostly work on special interest vehicles no daily drivers so I don't use a lot of cleaner/waxes. I do trust Todd Cooperider's word though so if he says the product contain abrasives then that's that. Put this product in the Cleaner/Wax Category.



The last production detail I did was at my detailing boot camp class where I teach my students to match their services to their customers and for daily drivers you use cleaner/waxes.

Pictures: Detailing Classes at Autogeek - May 2014


Production Detailing for Daily Drivers

Next up is my buddy Dave's son Josh's truck, a 2004 Dodge Ram 4x4. I'm not sure Josh has washed this truck in a few years and he works at a boat yard as a welder so the truck is parked in an area of heavy industrial pollution.


First we washed wheels and tires as that's the order I follow for my own vehicles and the order I teach in my classes. Next we sprayed the entire truck down with Iron X and you can see the results. This is called chemical decontamination.

May_2014_Detailing_Class_017.jpg


May_2014_Detailing_Class_018.jpg



Then we washed the truck using the Foam Gun... everyone loves to use the foam gun....

May_2014_Detailing_Class_019.jpg



Production Detailing for Daily Drivers
Next we machine polished it using Pinnacle XMT 360 which is a light cutting cleaner/wax.

First a quick lesson on how to use a cleaner/wax by machine when working on neglected paint.

May_2014_Detailing_Class_066.jpg


May_2014_Detailing_Class_067.jpg



May_2014_Detailing_Class_068.jpg



May_2014_Detailing_Class_069.jpg



May_2014_Detailing_Class_070.jpg


May_2014_Detailing_Class_071.jpg



May_2014_Detailing_Class_072.jpg



May_2014_Detailing_Class_073.jpg


May_2014_Detailing_Class_074.jpg


May_2014_Detailing_Class_075.jpg


May_2014_Detailing_Class_076.jpg




And that's how you do it!


:)
 
Sir, attached is the link of CG Blacklight. Under the "Specifications" and then "Application Pressure" I find there is "All in One".

Kindly clarify. I really don't know that's why I asked. :)


Here at Autogeek we carry over 70 brands and while I try to be somewhat knowledgeable about most of them there's no way to be an expert on ALL of them.


Like I said above, if Todd Cooperider says this product contains abrasives and can be used as an All In One, that is a cleaner/wax, then now we all know where it fits into our detailing arsenal.


Keep in mind, you can always join the CG forum as they will be the experts on their own products. Maybe they already have a thread like this to clear up any confusion?


:xyxthumbs:
 
Actually I e-mailed Chemical Guys personally and they really emphasized that there are "no" abrasives. Just fillers. Really makes me confused...
 
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