Occupy Wall Street
- Thread starter Flash Gordon
- Start date
TLMitchell
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- Oct 1, 2008
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Gotta say I agree on most items but there's misperceptions that many read and take as fact.
Listen to Speaker Bonehead talk about overly-generous government pensions and people believe the crap he's spewing. Prior to 1986 the Civil Service Retirement System basic annuity at minimum retirement age was 50% of an employee's high-3 average of annual wages. This was basic wage scales, not including overtime, hazardous duty or premium pay of any kind. Average high-3 turned into about 80% of the average of actual paychecks so 50% of that turns into about 40% of what you were actually paid while working.
In 1983 our friends in Congress figured if they stuffed all gov't employees into Social Security there would be more money for them to grab. The Social Security Reform Act of 1983 allowed the theft of the 2.6 trillion in the SS Trust Fund so Congress could offset their deficits and replace the money with IOUs.
The Federal Employee Retirement System was created to provide the extra income required to keep SSI solvent by adding Federal workers to Social Security. It uses a complex formula to compute annuites that dropped to about 30% of an employees high-3 years wage average. But they got to draw SSI when they qualified. For those that were required by law to retire... I was forced at age 56, there's 6 years before you qualify for SSI at 62. So they created what's called the Special Employee Supplement designed to approximate what you'd get from SSI at age 62. What they don't tell everyone is those computations aren't based on your entire life's work history like SSI is, they only count work history with the gov't. So that supplement might be 50% or less of what you'll get at 62.
In the meantime those "special" employees pay more than twice the percentage of wages into retirement funds than your run-of-the-mill Fed... and like SSI the money is spent, the Retirement Fund's cupboard is bare. And those employees have paid 6.4% of wages into Social Security like most everyone else. So what's your plan if gov't employees can't draw both a measely pension and Social Security? Is that 6.4% that was deducted from their wages for their entire working life going to be refunded in a lump or do you want to refund what they paid into their retirement? Or do we create another bit of grand larceny by taking their money for most of their lifes and telling 'em tough s##t when it's time to retire?
Incidently, the law that allowed Congress to highjack the Trust Fund was supported by a lot of familiar names that are still there. And the pack of thieves that created this mess are the ones crying longest and loudest over SSI insolvency!
Read all about it:
Who Stole the Money in the Social Security Trust Fund? - Registered Investment Advisor
To be totally fair there is one attractive facet of of gov't retirement and that's the Thrift Savings Plan/401k. They match up to 5% creating an instant 100% return on your investment. There were stupid restrictions for decades limiting the amount you could invest, still are. But they raised it some years ago..... still, you only get the match up to 5% and it isn't dollar for dollar anymore.
I've got no idea where people get the idea that Congress has great and cheap health plans. They have access to the same overpriced shitty plans the rest of Federal Employees can select from. High deductibles and copayments can bankrupt you if you have a major illness. and administration is a nightmare. Two good features, the gov''t picks up about 60% of the premiums, even into retirement, and you can't be denied coverage as long as you're a Federal Employee. For the combined monthly premium of employee and gov't contibutions for Federal Employee Health Benefit plans you could go out and by the finest, most comprehensive coverage available on the planet with 100% coverage for anything and everything. With the huge number of Feds you'd think that kind of tremendous buying power would produce some pretty good deals, huh? Bzzzzt.. wrong answer. Your government overpays drastically for substandard plans leaving employees... including Congress.... to choose between crummy and worse. Congress, but not their families, have access to military and gov't hospitals and doctors, they have a clinic on-site in the Capitol. But other than that they're in the same shitty boat as every other Fed.
TL
So what's your plan for gov't employees like Firefighters, Law Enforcement and Air Traffic Controllers that are forced to retire by Public Law well before they even get close to 60?
Listen to Speaker Bonehead talk about overly-generous government pensions and people believe the crap he's spewing. Prior to 1986 the Civil Service Retirement System basic annuity at minimum retirement age was 50% of an employee's high-3 average of annual wages. This was basic wage scales, not including overtime, hazardous duty or premium pay of any kind. Average high-3 turned into about 80% of the average of actual paychecks so 50% of that turns into about 40% of what you were actually paid while working.
In 1983 our friends in Congress figured if they stuffed all gov't employees into Social Security there would be more money for them to grab. The Social Security Reform Act of 1983 allowed the theft of the 2.6 trillion in the SS Trust Fund so Congress could offset their deficits and replace the money with IOUs.
The Federal Employee Retirement System was created to provide the extra income required to keep SSI solvent by adding Federal workers to Social Security. It uses a complex formula to compute annuites that dropped to about 30% of an employees high-3 years wage average. But they got to draw SSI when they qualified. For those that were required by law to retire... I was forced at age 56, there's 6 years before you qualify for SSI at 62. So they created what's called the Special Employee Supplement designed to approximate what you'd get from SSI at age 62. What they don't tell everyone is those computations aren't based on your entire life's work history like SSI is, they only count work history with the gov't. So that supplement might be 50% or less of what you'll get at 62.
In the meantime those "special" employees pay more than twice the percentage of wages into retirement funds than your run-of-the-mill Fed... and like SSI the money is spent, the Retirement Fund's cupboard is bare. And those employees have paid 6.4% of wages into Social Security like most everyone else. So what's your plan if gov't employees can't draw both a measely pension and Social Security? Is that 6.4% that was deducted from their wages for their entire working life going to be refunded in a lump or do you want to refund what they paid into their retirement? Or do we create another bit of grand larceny by taking their money for most of their lifes and telling 'em tough s##t when it's time to retire?
Incidently, the law that allowed Congress to highjack the Trust Fund was supported by a lot of familiar names that are still there. And the pack of thieves that created this mess are the ones crying longest and loudest over SSI insolvency!
Read all about it:
Who Stole the Money in the Social Security Trust Fund? - Registered Investment Advisor
To be totally fair there is one attractive facet of of gov't retirement and that's the Thrift Savings Plan/401k. They match up to 5% creating an instant 100% return on your investment. There were stupid restrictions for decades limiting the amount you could invest, still are. But they raised it some years ago..... still, you only get the match up to 5% and it isn't dollar for dollar anymore.
I've got no idea where people get the idea that Congress has great and cheap health plans. They have access to the same overpriced shitty plans the rest of Federal Employees can select from. High deductibles and copayments can bankrupt you if you have a major illness. and administration is a nightmare. Two good features, the gov''t picks up about 60% of the premiums, even into retirement, and you can't be denied coverage as long as you're a Federal Employee. For the combined monthly premium of employee and gov't contibutions for Federal Employee Health Benefit plans you could go out and by the finest, most comprehensive coverage available on the planet with 100% coverage for anything and everything. With the huge number of Feds you'd think that kind of tremendous buying power would produce some pretty good deals, huh? Bzzzzt.. wrong answer. Your government overpays drastically for substandard plans leaving employees... including Congress.... to choose between crummy and worse. Congress, but not their families, have access to military and gov't hospitals and doctors, they have a clinic on-site in the Capitol. But other than that they're in the same shitty boat as every other Fed.
TL
DealerDetailer
New member
- Jul 13, 2011
- 460
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My stance is a flat tax.
TLMitchell
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- Oct 1, 2008
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That's a fact, the only accurate one you cite. Do you think Federal Employees don't pay taxes too?
If your neighbor is a retired Fed at 54 he was either a Special Category employee such as Firefighter, Law Enforcement or ATC OR he put in his 30 years to qualify, including any military time. And if he is in fact drawing a "pension" of 84k a year he must have been in the Senior Executive Service making in excess of $170,000 a year because that's the way the formulas work out. There is not nor has there ever been a flat percentage annual increase in any Federal Retirement program. COLAs are computed at 1% LESS than the Consumer Price Index. There haven't been any COLAs for the last 3 years. Zero. And if you're a Special Category Employee there are NO COLAs until you reach age 62. And if he's in the Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan he's paying a minimum of 40% of the premium depending on which crappy, overpriced plan he's in.
Oh believe me, they do. It's called bend over and smile, just like everybody else. Government employees have become the whipping boys of choice these days. True, there's mammoth waste in government, inept employees just like in the public sector and bloated, redundant layers of management. Those at the top are political appointments often without a clue and there's little oversight or accountability. If you cut out the waste there would be mountains of money everywhere. However, as usual, I expect the meat to be cut to the bone and the fat will stay.
Your average government employee is capable and conscienscious, puts in 8 hours work for 8 hours pay and is committed to provide service to the public that pays them. Don't shoot the indians, aim for the Chiefs.
TL <--- 24 years sitting in a dark room like a mushroom with the gov't shoveling s**t on top of me
Bacon
SELF BANNED
- Oct 7, 2011
- 394
- 0
My only responce is that I will swap my self funded 401K plan and my social security plan for the government plan. And if you can find a government empolyee that wants my self funded $401k and my social security plan in exchange for their plan...IM me imediatley!
I want what they get with my tax dollars! PLEASE HELP ME !
Bacon
I want what they get with my tax dollars! PLEASE HELP ME !
Bacon
TLMitchell
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- Oct 1, 2008
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The operative word you use is "give". I don't see as anyone's "giving" me anything other than what I earned in a Federal career and I also paid the taxes that support it. I paid into the retirement fund for my entire career at a higher rate than most because my chosen career path was shorter by legislation. I paid the same 6.4% into Social Security since I was 14 years old. As someone pointed out, if you want a job with better benefits qualify yourself and go out and find one. You're comparing someone else's benefits to what others are offered. That's kind of like "they're getting something I'm not so they shouldn't get it". Vaguely similar to the rationale of "they make more than I do... either I should make the same or they should make less."
Everyone should know the pay and benefits available when they accept a position, whether it be government or in the private sector. If you take a job without retirement benefits who's fault is that? If you're not qualified to get a job with better benefits, who's fault is that? Anyone that works a job without a pension plan knew it when they applied for the job. And because one person accepted a position with benefits and another one didn't the one person with either better qualifications or foresight should be penalized to even the playing field and make everything equal? There's a name for that, it's called communism.
If you want government benefits, go get a government job. Go to any gov't office and ask for a Standard From 171 and list your qualifications. Maybe you could do what I did.. they're hiring! Most people make mistakes in their jobs.. it's human. They correct them, learn from them and move on. I was in a position where mistakes weren't allowed. Ever. If you screwed up there was a pretty good chance people would die and there would be aluminum, American Touristers and body parts falling from the sky. You can enjoy working weekends and Holidays and perhaps working a 2rd shift til midnight on Christmas Eve followed by 1st shift on Christmas morning like I did many times. You'll miss birthdays and graduations and all sorts of family functions because you're in an essential job that works 24/7/365. And then you can listen to misinformed people talk about the princely benefits you enjoy and shouldn't get because they aren't getting them. Yep, those government jobs are nothing but gravy...
TL
arack
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- May 9, 2011
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Most people are aware that government employees contribute next to nothing to their healthcare and retirement benefits.
The taxpayers have been subsidizing government benefits for decades. Yes, some of you did work hard for your benefits. But it is a fact that your benefits were subsidized off the back of hard working taxpayers who actually have to earn a profit to make a living.
There are countless government pension and benefit systems that are going to be broke over the next decade. Stay tuned.
I appreciate your input, but you are not going to get a lot of sympathy from the average taxpayer. You worked hard and it worked out well for you. Congratulations. The system is broken. The government is a fat greedy pig supplied by taxpayer corn feed. A revolution is coming.
TheCougarGuy
Member
- Apr 13, 2010
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Now that is funny!
Are we taking about a protest or a Greatful Dead Tour?
Flash Gordon
Well-known member
- Feb 6, 2010
- 11,440
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- Thread starter
- #113
Thanks for keeping this thread civil everyone. Its obviously a very touchy subject with lots of valid points on both sides
When me and BobbyG are elected into office we will figure it all out
CNN programming will be canceled and in its place I suggest we run 24hour a day cartoons. Robin Meade will be given a job in the White House kitchen serving up Bobby and I flapjacks and sausage links before our morning briefings
When me and BobbyG are elected into office we will figure it all out
CNN programming will be canceled and in its place I suggest we run 24hour a day cartoons. Robin Meade will be given a job in the White House kitchen serving up Bobby and I flapjacks and sausage links before our morning briefings
Rob T
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V3AutoDetailing
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How do you get bent out of shape when someone put thier time into a career. Now get a retierment. Just becuase someone worked for the goverment does not mean they are working the system.
The system is broken at a higher level than a single employee. It is politicans, and officials who all want the take. If One went to work, was able to make a nice wage, retire. Good for them. If you want it, get off your lazy asses and go get it.
Most of you have no idea or do politicians. What it's like to be away from home for a year at a time. Miss christmas, birthdays, work 16 hour days. Most of these jobs your working with someone that in an instant will take your life.
Most of you have no idea what kind of world it really is. Boo hoo, you have to pay taxes, and into your 401k. Guess what! So do we. You know you will go home everyday to see your family. We may not.
BY going after employes is wrong. You need to start at the top. Dont be jealous you can not pass a civil service exam.
The system is broken at a higher level than a single employee. It is politicans, and officials who all want the take. If One went to work, was able to make a nice wage, retire. Good for them. If you want it, get off your lazy asses and go get it.
Most of you have no idea or do politicians. What it's like to be away from home for a year at a time. Miss christmas, birthdays, work 16 hour days. Most of these jobs your working with someone that in an instant will take your life.
Most of you have no idea what kind of world it really is. Boo hoo, you have to pay taxes, and into your 401k. Guess what! So do we. You know you will go home everyday to see your family. We may not.
BY going after employes is wrong. You need to start at the top. Dont be jealous you can not pass a civil service exam.
jreblackGT
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- Oct 4, 2011
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I think it's wrong to demonize public employees. Yes most of them have pretty good health care and retirement benefits BUT most of them are very conscentious and dedicated workers who don't earn much in the way of wages while providing basic services that most, if not all, of us have come to expect of govt at all levels.
jreblackGT
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- Oct 4, 2011
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Final thought: the mechanism for change is built into our govt. It is ultimately up to us, the citizens, to become more involved in the process in order to hold our elected "representatives" accountable and replace them when they fail us. Granted it becomes difficult when the political process becomes so dependant upon money to gain attention. Then the "golden rule" applies (the ones with the gold make the rules).
TLMitchell
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- Oct 1, 2008
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It's assumptions that get repeated over and over again that over time become facts that rubs me raw. "Next to nothing" is relative. My health benefits cost me 84 bucks a month out of pocket. Single, no dependents. The same Family Plan would be 200 clams a month. Annual deductible is $1800 before they pay a cent, 15% copayments after that, no vision, no dental, no prescriptions. I pay 40% of the total premium. Compared to what many pay that is a deal. But I'm betting they have a much better plan dollar for dollar. I know any joe-blow off the street can get the same plan for a much cheaper total premium from the same provider only they're paying the total tab. Which is the only reason Feds enroll, some of the costs are offset. Plus the fact that you can't get cancelled or excluded. I'll admit, THAT'S a big benefit! And in determining whether that's a sweet deal or not people compare it to what they are or aren't getting.
My first job out of school provided 100% coverage, no deductible, full dental, vision, prescription, preventative care.. the works. 100% funded by the company. That was the norm in 1973 amongst larger companies. Government benefits were pretty much the same then as they are now and by comparison were downright crappy. Over time business decided they could improve the bottom line by slashing or terminating benefits or forcing employees to absorb or at least share the costs as executive pay reached obscene levels, even if those execs ran the companies into the ground. Those crappy government benefits started to look pretty good by comparison. And now in times that most companies offer zip or the employees pay full tilt government benefits seem to look like a gravy train and people are steamed because "I'm paying for that"!
"Subsidizing", an interesting choice of words. Businesses produce a product or service that people buy. By definition, would the customers not be "subsidizing" any benefits received by the employees that produce those products or services? Their cost is contained in the price of the product. Costs of benefits go up, the price of the product goes up. Prices of government benefits go up, taxes go up and people scream, myself included! The nebulous part of government is there isn't a hard, visible product in most cases that you can point to and say "that's what I'm getting for my money". Nobody looks at Hoover Dam and says "I made a good purchase, having electricity available at the end of my fingertip is a good thing". In my line of work, nobody gets off the airplane and says "geez, no midair collision, I think my tax dollars were well spent". And I have yet to hear anyone remark on what a good deal it was paying for their part of the Interstate highway that got them to Grandma's house for Thanksgiving.
If the definition of "broke" is having no money in a fund to pay for them then they already are, all of them. Are those receiving those benefits to blame? Are they the ones, in the case of Federal systems, the ones that spent the trillions of dollars that employees contributed figuring they'd be enough revenue coming in later to pay for them? I don't think so. Those systems were self-sustainable if left untouched. Bottom line, our elected representatives created the beg-from Peter-to-pay-Paul economic slight of hand to make unsustainable numbers appear to work..... until it's time to pay the Piper. And that time is nearly upon us if not long overdue.
I understand this. However, when you see things from the inside looking out you realize the staggering magnitutde of waste that could and should be cut. But our legislators think bringing home the bacon and spending money on anything and everything is what gets them reelected and that's their single-most overriding goal. Representation featuring common sense, sound principles and integrity doesn't even take a back seat, it isn't even in the car.
Well, my primary goal was achieved, job security and having my time be my own at an age when I'm not yet wearing Depends. All the airlines I interviewed at that thought they'd be doing me a favor by letting me push their Boeing around the sky are now defunct. The government is still there. For now. I wouldn't do it again, no way. And I advise anyone considering government employment to reach their personal goals to look in another direction, especially in my line of work. The meat is getting cut and the fat remains everywhere and bad, hair raising things are going to happen. It's inevitable. If you hear a loud bang overhead don't look up, you might just get hit in the kisser with a Samsonite.
As it should. That's what the people think they're doing that was the impetus for this entire thread. They're poorly organized, misdirected and I expect them to be ineffective. Eventually some true leaders will emerge and possible effect change before it's too late. Personally, I'm counting on Bobby and Flash.
TL
TLMitchell
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- Oct 1, 2008
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Perspective is all about which rock you're standing on. The grass always looks greener...
Sexist pig that I am, I suggest a brass pole be installed in the kitchen and Ms. Meade be suitably attired for her serving duties. I also suggest in return for her service she be compensated handsomely and receive an outrageously generous benefits package along with a 100% match 401k without limitations. Raise Max' taxes to pay for it. I'm sure he'll agree it's a small price to pay to keep you two happy. :laughing:
TL