Opinions needed on first attempt with Flex 3403

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frosty

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Hello,
I got my flex rotary today and I tested it on a couple of panels I picked up from the bodyshop. It seems things came out pretty good. Looking for opinions.

I experimented with Flex & Wool 6.5 purple as well as CCS orange, White, & Black. Menzerna Power Gloss, SIP & Nano Finish. This black panel is from a wrecked mercedes and has chunks of paint missing. However, I was pleasantly surprised with some of the scuffs we got out.

Interested in comments on how the panel turned out.
 
You can't ask for much more than the results you achieved, that is some significant correction. Great job on the first attempt, if you want you could get some 1500 grit sand paper and wetsand a few of those deeper defects and see if you can knock them down a bit with the Flex.
 
Thanks for the response Christian. I'm estatic with what it did. However, there are still tiny swirls in the paint that I can see at certain angles. The deeper defects you see are actually chunks of paint missing as this is a door from a wrecked car.

I have another thread on how good can you actually get a black car. This one I hit with wool & Power Gloss. Then SIP with an Orange CCS followed by Menzerna Nano Polish & a white pad. The wool after three attempts got all the major stuff out but left swirls. The SIP & orange got the swirls out but there were tiny scratches left. The Nano & white made an improvement but I still can't quit get all the small scratches out. You can't feel them so they should be correctable. I then broke out my xp 7424 with the Nano & a white pad. More improvement but still minor swirls & RIDS. So I go to back to the 3401, Nano and gray pad and still some nagging light swirls. I tried other combinations that I won't go into but bottom line if I look at certain angles I still see things. However, they will not show up in the pictures.

As in my other thready, I'm just not sure you can get out everything but I'd love to hear if anybody has any other suggestions.

I will say, the panel is uneven with some dents as well as several spots with bare metal exposed. This seemed to cause the buffer to catch and jump alot.

I'm going to do more reseach on how to properly use a Rotary but any tips or tricks of how to get of the final hump would be greatly appreciated.
 
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You might need to go back to a more aggressive combination like SIP and the orange pad just to knock those down a bit. If they aren't removed then, it is always possible that paint defects can be under the clearcoat and in the basecoat in which case you will never be able to remove them. So in summary, you can step back to the SIP combo and make sure you try and see how long you can work the polish to get the most possible cut and finishing out of it. Then step back to the nano combinations and try to see where that leaves you!

I am going to step up to a rotary with a Flex LK603VB which I am excited about! Its going to be a definate learning curve, but that should make buffing a little less monotonous for a while. ;)
 
That is some major correction! It's is likely that the tiny swirls you are seeing are the remnants of deeper swirls or Rids that weren't fully corrected. If not than they were reintroduced somewhere along the line maybe from not fully breaking down the polish? It's tricked me before. I have no exp with a rotary but I'm interested. :xyxthumbs:
 
Thanks for the response. Christian, you bring up a very good point and a question I've had. Is there a tell tale sign of whether a scratch is under the clear coat or not? I've had that suspicion on some of the things I've been working on but I'm not sure how to verify this.

A4 & Christian, this is my first rotary. Actually I bought a PC XP 2 weeks ago and that was my first serious machine ever. I got pretty good results with it on my MB but still it took too long and there are some swirls still left I want out.

I wanted something I could work a little faster with and most of the time I'm fairly mechanically inclined. So I ordered the 3403 last week and after yesterday very glad I did. I did not think some of these marks would have came out of the door like they did.

I'm thinking a combination of a Rotary for the major correction and then going to the 3401 to use the final polishes gives somebody with my experience the best chance of getting things correct in the least amount of tries. So as I posted in another thread, I'm going to try it with the Nano Finish along with a white or black pad when it gets here and see what happens.

My thoughts on my first use of a rotary.

This black panel you see, it is bent up and places missing chunks of paint and I was a little worried because it was extremely hard to control the machine. It was trying to dart all over the place. There were a couple of issues. First, I was sent a 6" backing plate but 5.5" pads. So that couldn't have been too great because I had to watch the edge of the backing plate and couldn't experiment with angle it to one side too much like I've read. (Of course I would never do this on anything other than a junk panel like this.)

Next the panel had several dents and uneven places in it along with chunks of paint missing and the pads seemed to catch on this and caused a lot of the jerking problems.

However, I have a fender from a Red Mustang that had a smooth section on it and I did much better as controlling the Rotary and keeping it moving smoothly.

I worked on it after spending an hour or two with the black panel and was very pleased with the results. Attached is a pix of it when I finished a section.

I actually put some pressure and racheted up the speed on the black panel to see about burning through the paint but never seemed to get close. I was using brand new pads and didn't want to turn it up all the way and angle it in one spot as I didn't want to destroy my pads but when I get one worn out, that's the next thing to experience.
 
A4 1.8tqm said:
That is some major correction! It's is likely that the tiny swirls you are seeing are the remnants of deeper swirls or Rids that weren't fully corrected. If not than they were reintroduced somewhere along the line maybe from not fully breaking down the polish? It's tricked me before. I have no exp with a rotary but I'm interested. :xyxthumbs:
Click to expand...

A4, I'm still not sure I get when a polish is completely broken down. I tried to focus on that. With my PC XP last weekend I worked the machine on 5 for around 4 minutes and I could see the polish get to where it was clear but like it was holgraphic. I went a little further past that.

However, with the rotary at 1500 rpm's, the polish went from white to wet looking to almost gone in a period of around a minute. I was thinking I needed to go longer but sometimes the pad started through little white chunks. Was kind of powdery or dust like.
I assummed the polish had completely broken down and I went to far. Also when going that long in some instances you could start to see dry places like the pad was actually removing polish and then the pad would seem to catch more so the rotary wasn't gliding as good.

So I quite going that long. at 1500 I guesstimate 45 secs to 1 minute to be optimal. My pad prep was first, do an ex on the new pad
Then afterwards I put two dime sized drops on the pad, spread it out, started out at min speed spreading it out and then settling on somewhere between 1500 to 1900.

Also, as for pressure I didn't put that much pressure on the machine. I would say at most maybe 10 to 15 lbs.

Any tips on how to gauge when a Menzerna polish has broken down with a rotary would be appreciated.
 
Your thoughts are correct about when a polish is broken down. When it "flashes" or turns clear it has broken down. When it starts throwing chunks you have too much polish in one spot on the pad, it needed to be spread and has dried up. This build up can cause marring, use a small brush to clean off any caked on build-up and a pad conditioner to keep the pad from drying out. Many polishes will dust, it's a matter of managing it with good pad priming, conditioning, cleaning and reapplying polish techniques. All dependent on the polish, paint, pad, weather etc. I'm still learning all this as well.

Wheres Kevin Brown? :)
 
I think the key is to keep a pad constantly primed which can be done by spritzing it with QD or water and cleaning the pad off with a tooth brush or dedicated pad cleaning brush in between panels. You could have kept working the polish past when it started spitting chunks if you gave the pad or panel a spritz of QD to increase the working time of the polish even it it has 'flashed'. Granted, this won't give you unlimited work time but it will allow you to gain some additional workability for that tiny bit extra of finishing and cut.
 
Hey Guys,

First thanks again for your input. Next, I have the Pinnacle pad conditioner. I thought you only used it initially when you started. Are you guys stating that I should continually use it before reapplying polish into between sections?

I'm in the process of researching the Kevin Brown method.

Thanks again
 
frosty said:
Hey Guys,

First thanks again for your input. Next, I have the Pinnacle pad conditioner. I thought you only used it initially when you started. Are you guys stating that I should continually use it before reapplying polish into between sections?

I'm in the process of researching the Kevin Brown method.

Thanks again
Click to expand...

I mentioned it to use in order to get a little more work time out of the polish when you described it as drying up. You do not need it in between panels, but you should clean out your pad or change to a new one every panel so that you don't start having the polish dry up on you.
 
Ok, shipping screw up prevented me from trying my F 3401 today but I did get some Meguairs and a the correct backing plate for my F 3403 so I can finally try to use it correctly.

There were some scratches in the door you could barely feel and I wanted to give wet sanding a try. Also, I have a new camera which looks to take a lot better pix. (The operator has some improving to do.)

Here's a pix of the door after my last session which started this thread.

(Having trouble getting pix on here in sequence.) 1st from the left is the panel when I started. 3rd Pix from left is after wet sanding with 1k & then 3k. 2nd from the left is after #105 & purple wool.
 
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(Sorry had problems trying to post pix in sequence and family is yelling to come eat!)

Next, I tried an orange pad with M105. I still have problems with the orange and heavy compounds. The Rotary chattered all over the place. I think it's mainly this door and the huge chunks of paint missing as well as it having dents.

The Orange pad didn't seem to be doing that well, so I switched to a Purple Wool pad that came with the 3403.

The wool pad seemed to have a lot less problems for me on this rough door as far as the rotary running smoothly.

Finally after an IPA wipe down, I went with the CCS White and M205. Started on 1 for a few passes, went up to 2 for 3 passes, then 2.5 for a couple more passes and then back down to 1 for 3 to 4 passes.

Here are a couple of pix after the final IPA wipe down with no FSP.
 
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That looks great! You are definately getting some results with your technique, makes me even more anxious to try the 603VB that I'm getting.
 
christian900se said:
That looks great! You are definately getting some results with your technique, makes me even more anxious to try the 603VB that I'm getting.
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Thanks Christian. It's definitely fun tinkering. Believe or not you can still see small scratches here and there but as you guys mentioned before I just don't think they're coming out. I think this is a definite improvement in the swirl department now. I can't say the Megs #205 is any better but I definitely like it just as well as the Menzerna Super Finish.

Also, I'm so glad I got these junk parts to practice on. Especially getting to do some wetsanding.

I'm going to take some steel wool to the red mustang fender and see what I can do with it. It's got a much better surface to work with.

Please keep me posted how it goes when you get your Flex!!!
 
FYI. I do have one question for anybody that reads this. I really focused on breaking down the finishing polish this last time. I have my steps above. In the slow process I went about 3" per second. Then on the slow down I went quite a bit faster.

One thing I notice though, the paint was pretty warm. I could still touch it but it was borderline hot. Meaning if it were a cup and you went to pick it up you would probably let it go and pat it a time or two just to make sure it wasn't too hot.

I've read you don't want to get it much more than warm. I got the result I was looking for but curious as to how you make sure you don't get too hot. I don't ever leave the rotary in one place, ever. The max speed I ever use is 1800, I follow all the guidelines etc but just seemed to be a touch hot so I wanted to make sure that's normal.

HD has a temp gauge on sale tomorrow. Thinking about getting it and asking what temp you should try to stay under.

Thoughts?
 
With metal panels, you can get them hot to the touch while doing significant correction work but not to the point where you would feel uncomfortable to touch the surface. On plastic panels, you don't want to heat them up past feeling only slightly luke warm otherwise you could start risking the chance of warping the panel itself.

Granted you should be noticing that the panel will feel luke warm when you move on to correcting your car or a customer's cars unless there is some more serious defect removal needed. If the panel starts getting too warm for comfort, try moving the buffer a little more quickly. One of the other factors in panel temperature is the type of pad you use. Many professionals and experienced detailers use pads that have grooves or patterns cut into the pad as this allows for some of the heat to dissipate.
 
Thanks Christian,

After reading and speaking with AG I think I'm going to refrain from using a buffer on plastic stuff and use my DA. I've been told you have to be careful because sometimes they don't have the same paint as the panels. Plus as you mention, wouldn't want to heat it up.

The panel was probably like being in the sun so I say around 140ish degrees. I'm coming up with that number watching a demo for a product being put on in the sun.

I think I may order a temp gauge and use it around the house to find air leaks. :)

Thanks again.
 
You shouldn't avoid plastic panels, but rather lower the speed and move the buffer more quickly over the panel which means that you will end up with more passes but the temperature of the panel will be much lower. The difference in the paint itself may be in the flex agents that are added so that the paint is more flexible.

But I don't disagree with your decision, I'm a big fan of being safe rather than being sorry haha.
 
frosty said:
One thing I notice though, the paint was pretty warm. I could still touch it but it was borderline hot. Meaning if it were a cup and you went to pick it up you would probably let it go and pat it a time or two just to make sure it wasn't too hot.

I've read you don't want to get it much more than warm. I got the result I was looking for but curious as to how you make sure you don't get too hot. I don't ever leave the rotary in one place, ever. The max speed I ever use is 1800, I follow all the guidelines etc but just seemed to be a touch hot so I wanted to make sure that's normal.

HD has a temp gauge on sale tomorrow. Thinking about getting it and asking what temp you should try to stay under.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

You seem to be close to burning the paint. Heat is NOT what you want. Before you start finishing a panel make sure you wipe off all of the previous compounds and polishes or you will reintroduce swirls into the finish. Then lower your speed and use a finishing pad and polish to remove any micro hazing and raise the gloss level. Then repeat this step to raise the gloss level another notch.

Derrick
 
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