Pinnacle Paint Cleansing Lotion Leaving Light Haze

[65vw]

Hello,

I have use the Pinnacle advanced swirl remover, finishing polish, and sovereign wax and had great results (see my 1965 Red VW Bug before and after pictures).

Now I am using the same products on a 1965 VW Notchback that has its original paint, and the products mentioned above have done a good job.

However, I decided to add the Paint Cleansing Lotion application as the step between the finishing polish and wax application.

I applied the paint cleansing lotion to a 3x3 area with the flex random orbital and a black pad. I wiped it off after I completed the 3x3 section.
However, I can see very light residue left on the car paint from the cleansing lotion.
I used clean MF towels and rubbed/scrubbed those residue sections vigorously but the haze remains about the same.
I sprayed some quick wash to help remove the haze and it only spread the haze.

I got the white pad I had used for the finishing polish and hand polished the hazy sections with the white pad and then removed the polish with a clean MF towel and that did remove the finishing polish haze.

Has anyone else had issues with the Pinnacle Paint Cleansing lotion leaving a hard to remove haze?

I read the Paint Cleansing Lotion would add a wetness/depth if used before waxing, but do I really need to use it after the finishing polish and should I use a Glaze between finishing polish and wax instead?

Thanks in advance for any tips or advice on using the Pinnacle Paint Cleansing Lotion and your experiences with it.

I am going to try the Klass products soon, those look to be what the original paint on the notchback needs.

PJ

 

[Paul A.]

I work PCL really well. Some may consider it overworked but it dissappears i work it so long. Never had it leave anything but a brilliant shine. I would use it after the polish and before the wax. How'd it look after the swirl remover?

 

[AGOatemywallet]

Skip the PCL...unnecessary step, since your are polishing


PCL adds something only when the paint is not truly clean

I have relegated PCL to dissolving The Other Guys Wax around emblems

 

[medicscott]

Hello,

I have use the Pinnacle advanced swirl remover, finishing polish, and sovereign wax and had great results (see my 1965 Red VW Bug before and after pictures).

Now I am using the same products on a 1965 VW Notchback that has its original paint, and the products mentioned above have done a good job.

However, I decided to add the Paint Cleansing Lotion application as the step between the finishing polish and wax application.

I applied the paint cleansing lotion to a 3x3 area with the flex random orbital and a black pad. I wiped it off after I completed the 3x3 section.
However, I can see very light residue left on the car paint from the cleansing lotion.
I used clean MF towels and rubbed/scrubbed those residue sections vigorously but the haze remains about the same.
I sprayed some quick wash to help remove the haze and it only spread the haze.

I got the white pad I had used for the finishing polish and hand polished the hazy sections with the white pad and then removed the polish with a clean MF towel and that did remove the finishing polish haze.

Has anyone else had issues with the Pinnacle Paint Cleansing lotion leaving a hard to remove haze?

I read the Paint Cleansing Lotion would add a wetness/depth if used before waxing, but do I really need to use it after the finishing polish and should I use a Glaze between finishing polish and wax instead?

Thanks in advance for any tips or advice on using the Pinnacle Paint Cleansing Lotion and your experiences with it.

I am going to try the Klass products soon, those look to be what the original paint on the notchback needs.

PJ

Wow! It's like you were sitting next to me and we did the exact same thing down to the Flex and black pad...I got horrific holograms and had to buff it off with a white pad and advanced finishing polish...Surface cleansing polish would not remove it either. I am a Pinnacle fanatic but the paintwork cleansing lotion went right in the trash.

 

[65vw]

Wow! It's like you were sitting next to me and we did the exact same thing down to the Flex and black pad...I got horrific holograms and had to buff it off with a white pad and advanced finishing polish...Surface cleansing polish would not remove it either. I am a Pinnacle fanatic but the paintwork cleansing lotion went right in the trash.

That was my thought too and why I posted to see how others did with the product.
Yes, you really had to look hard at specific angles to see the residue/holograms.

I did not see any major differences on the non swirl areas compared to the areas I did not use the PCL on, so as mentioned and I agree, it is not needed with the other products.

After the advanced swirl remover the paint looks very good. It looks like I could have gone a bit deeper but the paint is original and I don't want to take too much off.
I have 1/2 and 1/2 pictures from the first polishing I did on this car last year and on my recent polishing I was surprised how much oxidation was coming off.
I think I have gotten better at polishing over the past year.

I'm going to try the 3m glaze I got and see how that looks.

Thanks for the opinions, I appreciate it so I know it was not just me or some issue with the car paint and PCL.

 

[Jaretr1]

I tried PCL and I thought it was difficult to use, perhaps the only Pinnacle product I was not thrilled with. I would say skip it as well and just apply Sovereign right over the polish after you have done that step. If anything, wipe down with Eraser if it makes you feel better.

 

[LSNAutoDetailingLSNAutoDetailing is verified member.]

Wow! It's like you were sitting next to me and we did the exact same thing down to the Flex and black pad...I got horrific holograms and had to buff it off with a white pad and advanced finishing polish...Surface cleansing polish would not remove it either. I am a Pinnacle fanatic but the paintwork cleansing lotion went right in the trash.

Same thing happened to me... Exactly.

I had much better results when using PCL by hand with a MF Applicator and one of the handles that velcro to the applicator.

In Mike Phillips Video he applies PCL the same way I just mentioned in hard, back and forth strokes. He does not apply it in a circular motion.

Despite some having success with PCL with a DA, it's probably best applied the way Mike shows in the Pinnacle DVD / Video.

 

[Nick McKees37]

Paintwork Cleansing Lotion is designed for vehicle's that are new or like new - it is a non-abrasive pre-wax polish. It's not intended to be used after polishing your vehicle with Advanced Finishing Polish. Advanced Finishing Polish accomplishes the same thing (meaning it cleans the paint) but at the same time removes light swirl marks. Because modern clear coat finishes are extremely thin, you always want to use the least aggressive approach for polishing. For a vehicle with no swirl marks or scratches, Paintwork Cleansing Lotion is the perfect choice to prep the paint for application of Souveran.

Here's where most people go wrong:

More often than not I see Paintwork Cleansing Lotion being treated and applied as if it were an abrasive polish. That's not the correct way to apply it. Apply a quarter-sized amount of product directly onto a foam applicator pad and rub back and forth and side to side - you can also apply it in a circular pattern if that suits your fancy. You only need to perform 3-4 passes over each area. Proceed to remove residue with a clean, soft microfiber towel.

If you use a machine to apply the polish, a soft foam finishing pad works best. Low speed, no pressure, 2-3 passes over a panel and then wipe it off. Remember, it's non-abrasive and you're not trying to abrade the surface.

Sometimes we're so experienced and knowledgeable that we forget the simple approach to using certain products.

:dblthumb2:

 

[silverfox]

Perfect reply Nick...thanks.

 

[65vw]

Paintwork Cleansing Lotion is designed for vehicle's that are new or like new - it is a non-abrasive pre-wax polish. It's not intended to be used after polishing your vehicle with Advanced Finishing Polish. Advanced Finishing Polish accomplishes the same thing (meaning it cleans the paint) but at the same time removes light swirl marks. Because modern clear coat finishes are extremely thin, you always want to use the least aggressive approach for polishing. For a vehicle with no swirl marks or scratches, Paintwork Cleansing Lotion is the perfect choice to prep the paint for application of Souveran.

Here's where most people go wrong:

More often than not I see Paintwork Cleansing Lotion being treated and applied as if it were an abrasive polish. That's not the correct way to apply it. Apply a quarter-sized amount of product directly onto a foam applicator pad and rub back and forth and side to side - you can also apply it in a circular pattern if that suits your fancy. You only need to perform 3-4 passes over each area. Proceed to remove residue with a clean, soft microfiber towel.

If you use a machine to apply the polish, a soft foam finishing pad works best. Low speed, no pressure, 2-3 passes over a panel and then wipe it off. Remember, it's non-abrasive and you're not trying to abrade the surface.

Sometimes we're so experienced and knowledgeable that we forget the simple approach to using certain products.

:dblthumb2:

Thanks All and Nick,

The thing is different places like in the videos Mike made and in the product details there is conflicting information about letting the product sit and dry before removing while others say remove it right away.
That's why I posted, to see if I was doing it wrong.

I would use a hand application if I try it on another car.

The PCL details say it will fill and hide minor imperfections and that's what my thought was on using it after the finishing polish and before wax.
To better mask paint defects before waxing so the wax had less to hide.

The Notchback has its original paint, single stage no clear, so my post was also wondering if my single stage paint and PCL was the issue. That maybe 2 stage clear coated paint and PCL were a better combo.

For sure the Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover and Pinnacle Finishing Polish are a Great combo!
Besides the Red Bug I posted before and after pics of, I used the Pinnacle combo on an original paint 62 Ford Fairlane and our newer 2013 black Volvo and the results were outstanding!

What I need to find is something that can be used after the final polish and before waxing to further hide imperfections on older paint/cars that I don't want to use a heavy duty compound on.
I think that Klass stuff or a glaze might work well for that.

 

[Nick McKees37]

Thanks All and Nick,

The thing is different places like in the videos Mike made and in the product details there is conflicting information about letting the product sit and dry before removing while others say remove it right away.
That's why I posted, to see if I was doing it wrong.

I would use a hand application if I try it on another car.

The PCL details say it will fill and hide minor imperfections and that's what my thought was on using it after the finishing polish and before wax.
To better mask paint defects before waxing so the wax had less to hide.

The Notchback has its original paint, single stage no clear, so my post was also wondering if my single stage paint and PCL was the issue. That maybe 2 stage clear coated paint and PCL were a better combo.

For sure the Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover and Pinnacle Finishing Polish are a Great combo!
Besides the Red Bug I posted before and after pics of, I used the Pinnacle combo on an original paint 62 Ford Fairlane and our newer 2013 black Volvo and the results were outstanding!

What I need to find is something that can be used after the final polish and before waxing to further hide imperfections on older paint/cars that I don't want to use a heavy duty compound on.
I think that Klass stuff or a glaze might work well for that.

I didn't see your mention of single stage paint in your initial post (even I'm guilty of skimming sometimes!), and that is not certainly not helping with application of the polish. In my experience, Advanced Finishing Polish is much easier to work with on single state paint. Save Paintwork Cleansing Lotion for clear coat finishes.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

The thing is different places like in the videos Mike made and in the product details there is conflicting information about letting the product sit and dry before removing while others say remove it right away.

I understand all to well the confusion over

Which products need to dry and which products should be wiped off immediately. In fact, I wrote an article back in 2010

Which products need to dry – The Car Wax Mentality


When someone is new to detailing, there’s so much to know that it can easily become overwhelming, there’s different machines, different pads, different types of microfiber towels, a plethora of different waxes and paint sealants, different compounds and different polishes just to name a few of the various items a person is introduced to.


Over the years, teaching detailing classes and answering questions on detailing discussion forums, I made an observation that a lot of people new to detailing have what I call…

The Car Wax Mentality


Vague directions and limited real-estate
Here’s what I mean and this isn’t meant to be taken in any negative way, it’s simply an observation on my part about the confusion in the market place over paint care products. Keep in mind that for the largest portion of human history, we didn’t have the Internet and Discussion Forums to disseminate information to the masses.

Therefore until the Internet evolved there was no way to share with a wide range of people around the world, an article that explains which products need to dry and which products don’t need to dry. Thanks to the Internet… now we do have a way to share information instantly around the world.

Because there are so many players in the car wax industry, and thus hundreds of paint care products, most with only vague directions on how to use each product in part because of the limited amount of real-estate on product labels, people have what I call The Car Wax Mentality.


How The Car Wax Mentality works
Most people of car driving age, know the basics and the basics are,

• Wash and dry car
• Wax car, after wax has dried, wipe wax off

That’s about as basic as you can get. Without more specific information or clear directions, a lot of people assume the way you use a car wax is the same way you use all paint care products. That is, after using a compound, you let it dry and then wipe it off. After using a polish, you let it to dry and then wipe it off. This isn’t accurate as it applies to most pre-wax products.


COMPOUNDS & POLISHES

The benefit is created when you work the product

The benefit to a compound, swirl mark remover, abrasive polish, abrasive cleaner/polish or abrasive paint cleaner is created when the product is physically worked against the surface of paint. When you apply these types of products with some type of buffing pad or applicator pad and apply pressure, you force the abrasives to engage the top coat of the paint and abrade it, or in simpler words… take little bites out of it, usually to remove defects, which are below the surface.


Apply, work and remove
Once you are finished removing the defects you can and should remove the product. The benefit from using these types of correction and polishing products is created when these products are worked against the finish. Once you're finished with removing defects on a panel, you're finished with the product... wipe it off...


No benefit just increased risk
Allowing compounds and polishes, paint cleaners, etc., to dry adds no further benefit and in most cases will make the product more difficult to remove. In some cases, some products will be so hard to remove that you will inflict toweling marks into the paint trying to fight the residue off.


Innocent mistakes and usually harmless
People treat non-wax products like wax innocently because they just don’t know any better so their approach comes from the car wax mentality. In most cases you won’t hurt anything by allowing a compound or swirl mark remover dry, you’ll just waste time and make wipe-off more difficult.


Like dissolves like…
If by chance you ever find you’re self in a position where you or someone you know has let a non-drying product dry and the residue is now like trying to remove dried concrete of your car’s paint, you can usually remove the dried residue using an old technique, based upon the idea that like dissolves like, that is if you have let a compound dry on the paint and now you find it difficult to remove, re-apply the compound using it heavy or wet and the wetness of the product, because it’s compatible with the dried residue will often times re-wet it enough to make wipe-off easier.


A good rule of thumb
Generally speaking the above is correct, that is compounds, polishes, cleaner/polishes, swirl mark removers, paint cleaners, and pre-wax cleaners don’t normally need to dry.


Exceptions to the rule
The directions for products formulated for the retail or consumer/enthusiast market can be all over the board, so always read the directions first to see how the product is supposed to be removed. You will either remove the residue after applying and working it over the paint while it's still wet or you will allow it to dry to haze and then wipe it off dry. So be sure to always read the manufactures directions before using any product and if in doubt… contact the manufacture.


Waxes that don’t need to dry
In recent years, modern waxes have been introduced that don’t have to dry before removing, these are called WOWO products because you simply Wipe On, then Wipe Off the residue, there’s no need to let the product dry.


Drying Waxes
Historically, most car wax directions direct you to let the wax dry before removing because it’s through the drying process that the protection ingredients bond or adhere to the paint. Then, after they have dried, you wipe off the excess residue.


Do not disturb
Regardless of which type of wax or paint sealant you use, after removing the excess product and giving the paint a final wipe, a good “Best Practice” is to STOP wiping the paint and thus stop disturbing the protection ingredients and give the protection ingredients time to fully set-up.

Think about it... microfiber towels are famous for their performance when it comes to wiping-off waxes and paint sealants... if you wipe too much before the protection ingredients have fully set-up, you're disrupting these substances and with a microfiber towel.. you're wiping them off the surface you just applied them to.

So STOP after the final wipe and back away from the car.


Here's a few examples but by no means exhaustive of the product inventory offered by Autogeek.net


These products do not have to dry...

These products are supposed to dry...

These products do not have to dry...

The Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion is one of the few paint cleaners that I know of where the directions actually states the product will dry to a haze and then remove it. The idea being is to allow the fillers to set-up a little to mask or hide minor imperfections before you wipe it off. This is for cars that you DON'T machine polish with true compounds and polishes before hand.

When I came to to Autogeek in 2009 this portion of the directions caught me off guard because like I said, most paint cleaners are to be applied and then wiped off before they dry.

Here's the page to Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion, see #4 in the directions listed.


Normally though, compounds, polishes, paint cleaners (also called pre-wax cleaners, are to be applied and then removed.

That's why I posted, to see if I was doing it wrong.

I would use a hand application if I try it on another car.

The PCL details say it will fill and hide minor imperfections and that's what my thought was on using it after the finishing polish and before wax.

The thing is, if you finish with the Pinnacle Advanced Finishing Polish there shouldn't be anything left for the paint cleaner to fill. In fact, the Pinnacle Finishing Polish will finish out so well that using ANY paint cleaner afterwards could dull the results.

Here's what I type every time this subject comes up because it is COMMON for people to think they need to follow a polish with a paint cleaner and this simply isn't true nor good technique.

Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion is an either/or product.

That is you either use normal compounds and polishes to correct and finish out with OR if the paint is in new or like new condition you use just the paint cleaner.

You would never use all of these on a single car in a single detailing session.

I think I explain this in my how-to book also.

The Notchback has its original paint, single stage no clear,

Single stage paints tend to be softer than clearcoats except for single stage white paints. So they are more prone to micro-marring.

My guess is after you finish buffing anything with the Pinnacle compounds and polishes the results are simply astonishing and there's really zero reason to ever use the Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing lotion afterwards but instead... go to wax.

What I need to find is something that can be used after the final polish and before waxing to further hide imperfections on older paint/cars that I don't want to use a heavy duty compound on.

I'd say be happy with the results you get after any polishing or compounding and polishing. Trying to fill in anything tends to be an extra step that is short lived at best.

 

[Hoytman]

Awesome post with lots of great information.

 

[65vw]

Single stage paints tend to be softer than clearcoats except for single stage white paints. So they are more prone to micro-marring.

My guess is after you finish buffing anything with the Pinnacle compounds and polishes the results are simply astonishing and there's really zero reason to ever use the Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing lotion afterwards but instead... go to wax.

Thanks Mike and others, for all the great information.
I can't believe you posted to answer my question, that's pretty cool.

That is pretty much the question I was looking to answer besides about the hazing I was seeing.
Yep, the finish is very good after the Pinnacle Advanced Finishing Polish.


I will have to post more as I am really starting to get more into polishing and understanding how to use the flex orbital I got about a year ago and all the different products.

Thanks again for the detailed info Mike.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Thanks again for the detailed info Mike

No problemo...

If you watch my interview with Dennis Gage I share how when I first got into car detailing it was hard to find good information. That's because this was before the "Internet" was invented.


Dennis Gage interviews Mike Phillips


I never forget my roots though... and the effect of frustration trying to do a job right only to do it wrong because I couldn't find or get good information has had a life long effect on me. That is... I'm empathetic to others in the same shoes I was in. So I decided to break the tradition of offering wrong or bad or incomplete information and the result is I tend to overwrite. But in my experience, I've found providing more information to be better than one-liners in this industry.

And this is where a discussion forum trumps social media options like Facebook. Try to find an in-depth article on Facebook with pictures, links and videos ALL in the same message.

You can't because Facebook isn't set up to share in-depth information it's set up for one-liners.

Yep, the finish is very good after the Pinnacle Advanced Finishing Polish.

Then next you go to wax!


:dblthumb2:

 

[Jaretr1]

Great Stuff Nick and Mike!