Pontiac is coming back…

[Eldorado2k]

From what I've heard, your supposed to be awake when you visit a national park, not asleep.

 

[RippyD]

Okee dokee. I'm not a marketing guy so I can't say if this makes sense.

My father-in-law (now gone) was a 30 year GM guy. Automotive engineer who worked in Detroit and then spent ~20 years helping to manage car factories for GM. When I asked him 25 years ago why GM had so many brands that were competing with each other, he always had an answer. I honestly don't recall what it was, but it never made any sense.

They're all GM cars with parts coming from the same factories and sharing the same design. Why would anybody care if the same car (practically) says Buick vs. Pontiac vs. Chevy on it? They're all the same thing excepting some minor cosmetic changes. Some cars might have different engine options, but that was rare.

 

[Klasse Act]

Okee dokee. I'm not a marketing guy so I can't say if this makes sense.

My father-in-law (now gone) was a 30 year GM guy. Automotive engineer who worked in Detroit and then spent ~20 years helping to manage car factories for GM. When I asked him 25 years ago why GM had so many brands that were competing with each other, he always had an answer. I honestly don't recall what it was, but it never made any sense.

They're all GM cars with parts coming from the same factories and sharing the same design. Why would anybody care if the same car (practically) says Buick vs. Pontiac vs. Chevy on it? They're all the same thing excepting some minor cosmetic changes. Some cars might have different engine options, but that was rare.

Back in the day though each division had their own engines for instance, even rearends (Olds had a 12 bolt with 10 bolt spec internals) Buick GN's had aluminum brake drums, none of the other G-bodies had thus, just an example. Competition brings out the best, even internally

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[Setec Astronomy]

Back in the day though each division had their own engines for instance, even rearends (Olds had a 12 bolt with 10 bolt spec internals) Buick GN's had aluminum brake drums, none of the other G-bodies had thus, just an example. Competition brings out the best, even internally

Look, I'm a GM guy, but...if you go back far enough "back in the day" they were all separate companies, that GM acquired. I didn't realize until Delphi went bankrupt that Delco was not some division that GM had stood up, they were Delphi Electric Company that GM acquired in the 20's. (on a separate note, Philco was Philadelphia Electric before Ford bought them in the 60's and turned them into Philco Ford). The "own engines" thing went away in the late 70's after they lost that lawsuit with the Oldmobile engines in the Caddy's, after that the brochures started to say "engines produced by GM Powertrain" or something like that, and those specific engines started to fade away, like the Buick V8's with the front distributor. Of course Caddy held on to their specific engines for a while longer.

So sure, there was internal competition and division-specific hardware, up to a point, but once Roger Smith split things into CPC and BOC, everything was pretty much coming out of the same (two) parts bin(s), and to Rippy's point, what about Saturn (which was supposed to have nothing to do with the rest of GM) and Saab (which was always an...eccentric? company)...by the time of the bankruptcy in 2008, they were just generic GM cars with different sheet metal (Saturn had long lost the RIM or whatever panels that were part of the unique original Saturn construction, which wasn't really unique because it was shared with the Fiero).

 

[RippyD]

Good points. I was aware of the history. I was talking with my father-in-law from ~1990 - 2008, so well after GM had genericized almost all their components.

My FIL had some great stories from the earlier days (I think he started there in the early 50s) about how the divisions would undermine each other and intentionally not share technology or parts. I get that they were protecting a brand, but it sounded unhealthy for the company (my opinion based in my own non-Auto corporate career).

Of course my FIL loved the Corvair. "All you had to do was keep the tire pressure..." was his mantra. Shame they didn't do a better job with the rear suspension in the first version. Ironic and frustrating that it was fixed before Nader's book came out.

 

[Eldorado2k]

Is it just me or does it seem like the American auto industry was sabotaged by America itself many times over until they finally managed to sink it?

-There was the gas crisis in the early 70’s
-Which lead to the sudden forced downsizing of almost all American made cars without any real time to prepare for it.
-Then Ralph Nader had to come along and impose the 5mph bumper law at the worst possible time, as if they didn’t already have enough on their plates.
-Emission & mileage standards which directly lead to brands like Cadillac producing cars like the Cimmaron in order to average a certain MPG across their entire lineup of cars, that’s the only reason they made that car, because they had to.

By the end of all that chaos it was the late 1980’s and American cars had gone to crap compared to where they once were. Reputation took a hit that took about a decade to recover from and it still hasn’t caught up yet.

They say history repeats itself, I wonder if the self imposed future of EV’s will be similar or even worse once they actually forbid the production of gasoline powered vehicles. Unfortunately I think there’s a good chance America could screw itself once again.

As far as GM goes, I agree that the days of needing 7 different brands under the same umbrella are over. Times have changed and you no longer have Americans eating from your hand like they once were. You’re lucky to be producing a single sedan or coupe these days, and you think bringing back an entire brand is a good idea?

 

[Klasse Act]

Don't worry about the whole EV mandate thing Ric, it's already being walked back, people just aren't buying them. My buddy Hectour and I talk everyday while at work and I said even if the government gave a voucher for $25K to buy an EV they wouldn't and it's because it doesn't fit the majority of people's life styles, plain and simple

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[Setec Astronomy]

We're probably getting a bit ahead of ourselves, it's been suggested it's a fake ad (that's what it says at the bottom), it seems possible to me that C/D couldn't sell the ad space so just made up something entertaining. I'm not really familiar with the current editorial crew over there.

 

[Desertnate]

Is it just me or does it seem like the American auto industry was sabotaged by America itself many times over until they finally managed to sink it?

-There was the gas crisis in the early 70’s
-Which lead to the sudden forced downsizing of almost all American made cars without any real time to prepare for it.
-Then Ralph Nader had to come along and impose the 5mph bumper law at the worst possible time, as if they didn’t already have enough on their plates.
-Emission & mileage standards which directly lead to brands like Cadillac producing cars like the Cimmaron in order to average a certain MPG across their entire lineup of cars, that’s the only reason they made that car, because they had to.

By the end of all that chaos it was the late 1980’s and American cars had gone to crap compared to where they once were. Reputation took a hit that took about a decade to recover from and it still hasn’t caught up yet.

You're answer is right there. America didn't sabatoge anyone. The US auto industry simply responded poorly to the market conditions which left them at a disadvantage to other companies. I think there was/is also a healthy measure of corporate arrogance which led to the automakers believing they could cut costs to the bone and consumers would still keep buying their products simply out of blind loyalty.

They didn't keep up with all the changes to the industry and the world starting in the late 70's which allowed automakers in other parts of the world to catch up and pass them. Their cars never caught up and that's why so few are on the market today. They weren't competitive and didn't sell well, so they've mostly been discontinued. Trunks are really the US automaker's only Ace card and that's mostly because it's a uniquely North American vehicle.

The US automakers have the engineering and production capability prowess, but they seem to be slow to change and insular which makes them sometimes ignore what their competition is up to.

 

[PA DETAILER]

We need a new TRANS AM and FIERO! In 88 they got the FIERO just right then dropped it.

 

[Eldorado2k]

You're answer is right there. America didn't sabatoge anyone. The US auto industry simply responded poorly to the market conditions which left them at a disadvantage to other companies. I think there was/is also a healthy measure of corporate arrogance which led to the automakers believing they could cut costs to the bone and consumers would still keep buying their products simply out of blind loyalty.

They didn't keep up with all the changes to the industry and the world starting in the late 70's which allowed automakers in other parts of the world to catch up and pass them. Their cars never caught up and that's why so few are on the market today. They weren't competitive and didn't sell well, so they've mostly been discontinued. Trunks are really the US automaker's only Ace card and that's mostly because it's a uniquely North American vehicle.

The US automakers have the engineering and production capability prowess, but they seem to be slow to change and insular which makes them sometimes ignore what their competition is up to.

Reason I say sabotage is because if anyone should’ve had the inside track to all this crap looming ahead it should’ve been all the corporations here at home. Heck they’ve been having Bilderburg meetings since the 1950’s so how did such big news seem to catch the biggest corporations in this country seemingly by surprise to the point where they didn’t even seem to think it could be a possibility judging by them not even having thought about a downsized lineup of concept cars. [maybe they actually did have a concept car or 2, but it didn’t seem to turn into anything that made a good difference]

Instead the US pumped out duds like the Ford Pinto & Chevy Citation while Honda came onto the scene with the 1st Accord & Civic which have been solid & reliable from the start along with Toyotas and even BMW and pretty much any and every car made between the mid 70’s to late 80’s was better than almost anything US had to offer. If it wasn’t sabotage it was gross negligence, regardless it was unacceptable and did away with Made in the USA holding any weight. Even to this day it doesn’t matter like it once did and probably never will. Alot of things get made in the USA these days and nobody even cares because it went to crap so bad that it never recovered.

The newer generations care even less. I wonder how many successful people in their mid to late 20’s would consider buying a Lincoln these days, my guess is almost nobody, that’s how far Lincoln has dropped off the radar. If it wasn’t for people like Joe Biden still driving around in Lincoln Town Cars, the whole brand might’ve been axed a long time ago just like Pontiac & Oldsmobile.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I think there was...a healthy measure of corporate arrogance--They didn't keep up with all the changes to the industry and the world starting in the late 70's

This--and not just the automotive industry

allowed automakers in other parts of the world to catch up and pass them.

I saw a guy on TV some years ago who wrote a book, suggesting that the world dominance of US manufacturing after WWII had less to do with our "manufacturing might" and more to do with all the other manufacturing economies of the world (Japan, England, France, Germany, etc.) getting the sh*t bombed out them, and taking 30-40 years to recover from that.

 

[RippyD]

Don't worry about the whole EV mandate thing Ric, it's already being walked back, people just aren't buying them. My buddy Hectour and I talk everyday while at work and I said even if the government gave a voucher for $25K to buy an EV they wouldn't and it's because it doesn't fit the majority of people's life styles, plain and simple

I think EVs fit many people's life styles - maybe 50% in the U.S.? Many of us use one car primarily for short trips that are low miles (work commute, shopping, local outings). This is exactly where an EV shines. I got rear-ended last year and had a Tesla rental for about a month. I drove both a Model 3 and and Model Y for ~2 weeks each. They are nice enough cars and the model 3 is surprisingly well priced with the tax rebate. I live in an Urban area and have close access to Tesla chargers. The cars charged overnight for me with 120v and would have done better with 240v. For people without charging at home or access to super chargers these are far less attractive.

The charging time for cars other than Teslas appears to be about 2-3x the Tesla time, which is a big negative. I could charge my car when I went to grocery store and I have it at 80% or better when I came out. It was not hard to keep the car charged at home or by using Tesla chargers.

I would not do a road trip with an EV due to the risk of running out of juice. This should get better over time. With Tesla getting rid of it's charger deployment team I suspect growth of a charger network may be stalled.

U.S. new car sales we're ~7% EV in 2023, forecasted to be 9% in 2024 and 12% in 2025. That's a significant growth rate. TBD if those numbers happen.

 

[Eldorado2k]

I think EVs fit many people's life styles - maybe 50% in the U.S.? Many of us use one car primarily for short trips that are low miles (work commute, shopping, local outings). This is exactly where an EV shines. I got rear-ended last year and had a Tesla rental for about a month. I drove both a Model 3 and and Model Y for ~2 weeks each. They are nice enough cars and the model 3 is surprisingly well priced with the tax rebate. I live in an Urban area and have close access to Tesla chargers. The cars charged overnight for me with 120v and would have done better with 240v. For people without charging at home or access to super chargers these are far less attractive.

The charging time for cars other than Teslas appears to be about 2-3x the Tesla time, which is a big negative. I could charge my car when I went to grocery store and I have it at 80% or better when I came out. It was not hard to keep the car charged at home or by using Tesla chargers.

I would not do a road trip with an EV due to the risk of running out of juice. This should get better over time. With Tesla getting rid of it's charger deployment team I suspect growth of a charger network may be stalled.

U.S. new car sales we're ~7% EV in 2023, forecasted to be 9% in 2024 and 12% in 2025. That's a significant growth rate. TBD if those numbers happen.

Lets see how well it fits in about 10yrs. when the battery needs replacing at a cost of around $20,000+ dollars.

Yea I know they claim they’ve somehow improved things now but how do we really know they’re not just saying that with stories out there these days talking about the horrible re sale value of these 1st used EV’s that require high cost maintenance.

Just imagine how bad things would be if the used car market we’ve grown accustomed to were no longer available and everyone was forced to buy a new car that only lasts about 15yrs. before you’re forced to buy a new one again. I could be wrong but if there’s a possibility of that it would suck really bad. Remember what they did with the cash for clunkers and the long term effect it had on todays used car market.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I think EVs fit many people's life styles - maybe 50% in the U.S.? Many of us use one car primarily for short trips that are low miles (work commute, shopping, local outings). This is exactly where an EV shines.

I don't think it's 50%, but there are certainly plenty of people that have a garage where they can charge and drive an amount where they should be able to, even with a Level 1, recharge that amount overnight. And if you have more than 1 car in your family, with one an EV and the other ICE, then that one can be used for long trips. As I think I said previously in this thread, as the charging infrastructure is built out, both in having Level 2 outlets/chargers at homes, and Level 3 chargers elsewhere, it will become easier but it's a process.

 

[Klasse Act]

I think EVs fit many people's life styles - maybe 50% in the U.S.? Many of us use one car primarily for short trips that are low miles (work commute, shopping, local outings). This is exactly where an EV shines. I got rear-ended last year and had a Tesla rental for about a month. I drove both a Model 3 and and Model Y for ~2 weeks each. They are nice enough cars and the model 3 is surprisingly well priced with the tax rebate. I live in an Urban area and have close access to Tesla chargers. The cars charged overnight for me with 120v and would have done better with 240v. For people without charging at home or access to super chargers these are far less attractive.

The charging time for cars other than Teslas appears to be about 2-3x the Tesla time, which is a big negative. I could charge my car when I went to grocery store and I have it at 80% or better when I came out. It was not hard to keep the car charged at home or by using Tesla chargers.

I would not do a road trip with an EV due to the risk of running out of juice. This should get better over time. With Tesla getting rid of it's charger deployment team I suspect growth of a charger network may be stalled.

U.S. new car sales we're ~7% EV in 2023, forecasted to be 9% in 2024 and 12% in 2025. That's a significant growth rate. TBD if those numbers happen.

...the last part

Yeah it sounds like it worked for you and that's awesome. I want people to buy what works for them, what I don't wanna hear is MANDATES️

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[Setec Astronomy]

Remember what they did with the cash for clunkers and the long term effect it had on todays used car market.

C'mon Eldo, cash for clunkers was 15 years ago, today's used car market sucks because of the price and availability of new cars. Although I hear you on the battery issue, used cars get blown engines and transmissions, too. Besides, even in a worst-case scenario, they will be making ICE cars for another 10+ years, and gas will be available for decades after that. Someone I know said their strategy was to keep their ICE car forever and when everyone switches to EV, gas will be really cheap!

I'm sure there were people saying that they wouldn't give up their horse because they didn't need to worry about where they would be able to get gas for their horseless carriage.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Yeah it sounds like it worked for you and that's awesome. I want people to buy what works for them, what I don't wanna hear is MANDATES️

I think in 10 years it will make sense for 50% of people, as Rippy suggested. But if it's only 50%, then they are going to backslide on the mandates, because obviously that isn't going to work.

 

[Eldorado2k]

C'mon Eldo, cash for clunkers was 15 years ago, today's used car market sucks because of the price and availability of new cars.

I’m referring to the lack of used car parts.
They destroyed alot of perfectly good used car parts when they wrecked all of those cars.

Remember they even made sure to empty out the oil out of every engine and pour a sodium silicate solution into each engine just to make sure the they destroyed it for good and it could never be used again.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Yeah, that was a little crazy. I forgot about that.