Production Shop looking for a better Wetsanding Procedure

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casey79westfali

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Well I have been in the business for sometime. I own a production shop and we have been consistently having issues with the buffing. Im ready to make a move and streamline our setup. I make sure the surfaces are clean before sanding and buffing and always clean the buffing pads and use an interface pad on a 3/16" fine throw d.a .Currently we are using trizact 1500 to level the surface. Ideally the next step is to go to the 3m 3000 then 3m 5000 with multiple passes of each. We then use 3m's one step compound and finishing pad on a 8" electric rotary buffer at 1800 speed. When all is said and done we still have light pigtails throughout. I sometimes use mirka 2000 foam pad after the 1500 which helps but doesn't solve the pigtails. I am thinking of switching to a better paper, compound and pad. Any recommendations would be excellent. It seems a lot of users recommend the orange lc pad (which one?) and meguiars 105 compound. We are a production shop but I do a lot of high end restorations where we buff the whole car. I need a setup that is relatively simple so I can avoid confusion with the staff. Thanks Guys.
 
:welcome: to AGO

I think your initial process sounds fine but instead of doing your finish polishing with a rotary, how about using a forced rotation DA like the Flex 3401 (since you mentioned being a production shop, and speed is of the essence). If the final step does not need to be sped through I would also look at a large throw DA (Rupes)
 
If I read you correctly, the pigtails are instilled by the 1500# step in your process?

If this is the case, you should attempt to eliminate them at the source

As you know, pigtails are generally caused by debris between the sanding disc and the surface

Try increasing the focus on keeping the sanding disc clean by frequently wiping the painted surface, spraying the pad to remove residue and using adequate lubrication

3M also suggests that when changing sanding discs, make sure you are not holding the machine over the painted surface, as debris can fall off the machine/disc and onto the paint

Good Luck

Post some of your work, would enjoy seeing it
 
I'm missing something...are you saying you are a bodyshop and you are cutting fresh paint? Or are you saying you are a detailing shop and are routinely sanding cars that come in to be detailed? Or by "production shop" are you saying that you are reconditioning hacked cars for auction, and that they are all so bad they need to be sanded?
 
casey79westfali said:
I ... always clean the buffing pads. ...When all is said and done we still have light pigtails throughout.
Click to expand...

You always clean the buffing pads! May I ask why you aren't using new pads on each job?

Contaminated pads are likely your problem.

Perhaps you meant that you clean them after each section pass and I at first misunderstood you.
 
If I understand your issue correctly, the pigtails would come from the DA process and not the rotary process. A rotary would leave holograms.

Based on that, narrow down the DA process and equipment to find out where the pigtails are coming from. Maybe just a build up of debris in the paper during one of the sanding steps?

Randy
 
I am a production body shop and also restore classic cars many of which are show winners. I am meticulous. I know how to get a great finish. Im just looking for a better system. Im not a hack, I don't use old pads and I know that it takes a clean panel, water, paper and pad. My current method works very well once I get through all the steps Im just not happy with the trizact and the overall length of my wet sanding process.

With that being said I like to cut and buff all paint work in my shop. I don't do it because the panels are dirty or to make up for a poor paint application. I just like to make them look the best they can and I think everything looks better properly buffed.

I don't believe in changing out the foam buffing pad for a new one on every job. I do keep them clean and wash them after use and when they get worn I replace them. And the issue is not the buffing its the sanding. If I don't 1500 I have no issues at all once I buff.

What I am noticing is that after I 1500 trizact with clean paper on a clean panel I get light pigtails. I do not get them everywhere. Just a few here and there. I usually come back with some mirka 2000 over the pigtails which removes them and then can finish with 3000 and 5000 3m foam discs and get a great result.

So I guess my concern is two things.

First is anyone using a 1500 paper that they get less pig tailing with then trizact?? It seems to be a problem for many people using the trizact. Im not saying the paper doesn't work Im just not crazy about how careful I have to be with that paper in particular when it comes to pig tailing.

Second the 3m onestep system is ok: Perfect-It 1 No Compound Paint Finishing System - Featured Products - Products.

It works well for production but the compound is a little slow going. Doesn't buff quickly and takes a lot of passes even after 5000. I want to speed up my workflow a bit. Im wondering if a lake country orange pad for compounding with meguiars 105 would be a faster cut and buff then the 3m one step and would eliminate the need for the 5000.

Simply put my entire process is too long.
1500 trizact (2-5 passes or until desired texture)
2000 mirka (2-3 passes depending on depth of remove pigtails)
3000 3m foam (3-4 passes)
5000 3m foam (3-4 passes)
Perfect it one step compound on turquoise quick release pad on rotary buffer.

I need an easier process. Whats working best for you guys.

Ive been in the business for many years.Heres some of the past years work. My shop does around a 1000 cars a year give or take a little. Mostly insurance work with a handful of restorations throughout the year. Thanks for the advice guys, looking to change my process.

2014-09-22_16_08_23.jpg


2014-01-30_16_17_42.jpg


2014-01-29_08_28_25.jpg


2013-09-25_09_14_22.jpg
 
According to 3M, you are doing everything correctly with the Trizact System

The only variable that hasn't been touched on machine speed during the 1500# sanding step

Is it possible the machine speed is too high?
 
And thanks for the pictures

Looks like nice work
 
I always keep my buffer speed around 1800. I have resorted to the fact that everytime I wetsand all the way to 5000 there are still traces of pigtails no matter how much I am to baby the job. I'm just starting to wonder if a stronger compound would help to pull them out better then 3m's perfect it compound. Like a lake Country orange with m105 or Wolfgang.

At this point in ready to try some new products to see if I can speed my work flow up and maybe eliminate a step of two and save some money while doing it. Having to use the 1500, 2000 Mirka, 3000 and 5000 to get the surface ready for buffing is exhausting day in and day out. The old 3m system was 1500, 3000 and the three perfect it compounds with three colored pads. I still had the pigtail problem on the old system. They're has to be a 1500 paper that won't pigtail like the trizact to be a effective. As well as a buffer/pad setup that can do more pigtail removing then my current setup
 
are you using the interface pad with the trizact disc. it seems to help soften the grind of the da when using it.
The last cut an buff, I used 1200,2000 and fg 400 on a orange hybrid pad with the 3401 and followed with 2500 on a white hybrid pad. it worked very nice. jonathan
 
great pics Casey. wonderful job you are doing.

I'm also eager to know since most of my wet sanding is done manually.

Above the 3000 grit, please try the Denim pads or Velvet pads. You'll remove the pigtails and sanding marks too. But you need to be very careful near the edges. use foam or wool pads near the edges.

What I'm eager to know how you would remove the sanding marks from a previous/lower grit with a higher grit sanding
 
Try messaging Kevin Brown of Buff Daddy, he may have some very interesting sanding technology that may help you. Forced DA/Large stroke DA's with the right 3k/5k surface can be one stepped out with the right MF pad & chemical!
 
Woob said:
Try messaging Kevin Brown of Buff Daddy, he may have some very interesting sanding technology that may help you. Forced DA/Large stroke DA's with the right 3k/5k surface can be one stepped out with the right MF pad & chemical!
Click to expand...

:iagree:

Kevin Brown also speaks a lot about residue control, cleaning your sanding discs often to prevent build up.
 
I don't think you'll find a 1500 grit disc that doesn't leave at least some pigtails, it's not just the grit of the disc leaving them, abraded paint will too. It is all about residue control, clean often. The only way I have completely eliminated pigtails is with water running over the surface the whole time I'm working, but this is not really feasible on a whole car.

I would also look at eliminating the 5000 grit in favor of a couple more 3000 grit passes. You can remove 3000 grit acceptably in one step, two steps if your a perfectionist. A couple extra 3k passes will help knock down the pigtails and still reduce your overall time by eliminating the 5k.
 
zckid said:
Above the 3000 grit, please try the Denim pads or Velvet pads. You'll remove the pigtails and sanding marks too. But you need to be very careful near the edges.
Click to expand...

Why do you suggest Denim instead of going to Compound?

If you don't keep those Denim Pads very clean....they will actually instill Pig Tails
 
I use the same system described by the original poster. We eliminated the pigtails by doing the 1500 dry. We go through ALOT of sandpaper, but you can see the coils the second they begin. Some sheets are only good for a few seconds, others last half a panel. We wipe them clean with microfiber. I do not do production, but more custom paint like restoration. Another thing that helped tremendously was the clear. The clear i'm using drys hard and cures fast. One a black paint job 3 coats of clear, after 2 days, i can put tape on it without leaving marks, no matter how long i leave the tape on. If the clear coat is soft, you will get coils regardless. Just my tip. good too see someone trying it the same way as us. Also, after 1500 DA, i'll do 2000 by hand to make sure DA scratches are gone. 3K/5K after that. It should be beautiful after that. If the shine is uneven, you will see DA marks or hand scratches and you will know if it was the 1500 or the 2000.
 
I will be testing the Klingspor Fusion discs soon. They are available in aluminum oxide or silicon carbide 3500, 2500, and 1200. I will be trying to find an in between 1500 and 3000 in foam.
 
casey79westfali said:
Well I have been in the business for sometime. I own a production shop and we have been consistently having issues with the buffing. Im ready to make a move and streamline our setup. I make sure the surfaces are clean before sanding and buffing and always clean the buffing pads and use an interface pad on a 3/16" fine throw d.a .Currently we are using trizact 1500 to level the surface. Ideally the next step is to go to the 3m 3000 then 3m 5000 with multiple passes of each. We then use 3m's one step compound and finishing pad on a 8" electric rotary buffer at 1800 speed. When all is said and done we still have light pigtails throughout. I sometimes use mirka 2000 foam pad after the 1500 which helps but doesn't solve the pigtails. I am thinking of switching to a better paper, compound and pad. Any recommendations would be excellent. It seems a lot of users recommend the orange lc pad (which one?) and meguiars 105 compound. We are a production shop but I do a lot of high end restorations where we buff the whole car. I need a setup that is relatively simple so I can avoid confusion with the staff. Thanks Guys.
Click to expand...
Go with the Mirka,the 3m is causing the pigtails the paper grit surface breaks down and gets trapped between the surface and the paper causing pigtails.And if your area is not clean it can be a additional major promblem with pigtails.In a production shop you know as well that time is money,so I would look into a compound that is lsp ready menzerna fg 400 and HD polish both are really good effective products.HD cutting compound and polish are a system,but it's a 2 step process there are many good products out there but none are the best every paint and condition is different.As far as pads you will need many micro cutting disk orange buff and shine and finishing pads.
 
skysdalimit said:
I will be testing the Klingspor Fusion discs soon. They are available in aluminum oxide or silicon carbide 3500, 2500, and 1200. I will be trying to find an in between 1500 and 3000 in foam.
Click to expand...

The Klingspor do not compare to the 3M discs. The 3000 3M Cuts out 1500 grit scratches AND it begins to polish. The Klingspor did neither well. And the 5000 3M polished very well and only leaves cloudy spots where it needed more 3000. After the 5000, the one step polish from 3m on the green pad leaves a flawless finish. No haze, dullness, swirl marks at any angle. And deep! The klingspor couldn't compare.
 
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