Q: ceramic over xpel...overkill?

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glen e

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I see a lot of situations on the car forums where some unscrupulous detailers are selling newbies with brand new cars a 2 stage polish correction, then PPF like Xpel or Suntek, and then ceramic pro or any of the si02 coatings to "protect" the PPF.

I'm pretty sure that this is overkill. Do coatings stick to xpel? I can't believe that they do, I'm sure a polymer or si02 spray would be more than enuf. Where I see detailers taking advantage of people is they are charging for the ceramic as if there is a tremendous amount of correction , and there is absolutely none when putting it on top of PPF, except maybe an IPA wipe beforehand. PPF plus ceramic can run $5000 from some of these guys… One guy on the Camaro site. was paying 9000 bucks for this triple step package. Wow.....What's your opinion, experts?
 
To answer your question. No. I just had a customer that wanted to install paint protect film or cermaic coating. The thing about PPF after a few years it has to be removed how many years varies based upon the manufacturer you choose. I tell customers if you are the type that don't keep your cars long then great PPF is great for you if not then it's a waste of money because you will have to remove and reinstall after a few years so we talking a few thousands. PPF will not stick to the car if you have cermaic coating on. Ceramic coating can be very costly especially if you're adding on paint correction on top. Now I will say with cermaic pro the more layers of 9H you install the more protection you will have because your adding more thickness to the paint. So you have to evaluate your pros and cons. We charge customers based upon our technicians experience level and how much labor that will be needed to make your vehicle perfect. Our paint correction costs around $200 an hour but depends on relationship we have with the customer we may discount it. Pricing is also determined on where you live. Like we are in DC so cost of living so on so on is very high so pricing is a lot higher versus a detailer in a smaller income area which cost of living is lower so their pricing is a lot lower.


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Clearview… I think you missed my questions.

Do you install ceramic pro on top of your PPF?.

If so , what does two applications of a coatings cost on average, on top of PPF?

And what does it actually do? Does it Give the PPF more gloss?, or more durability?

And does it actually cross-link and bond to the plastic PPF?

Thanks!
 
That's in there. You can't install PPF over cermaic coating because it will not stick and it's not recommended putting it on top of a ppf. You can install two layer of PPF coating for glass PPF and one layer if it's matte PPF. You have to get the ceramic coating that's designed for ppf. All that does is help propel water off the film but no added protection.

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glen e said:
Clearview… I think you missed my questions.

Do you install ceramic pro on top of your PPF?.

If so , what does two applications of a coatings cost on average, on top of PPF?

And what does it actually do? Does it Give the PPF more gloss?, or more durability?

And does it actually cross-link and bond to the plastic PPF?

Thanks!
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All PPF does is protect paint from Rock chips and so on so on. Cermaic coating is

"Ceramic Pro is a multi-layerable, clear, liquid nano-ceramic coating. When cured, this technology will transform itself on the surface to a permanent, durable yet flexible glass shield. Ceramic Pro can be described as an additional clear coat, with 3 times the hardness and self cleaning properties."

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Again I think were disconnecting… I know that. I'm saying do you prep the surface, do the correction, install the PPF, and then do a ceramic coating? Do you do that? Not ceramic first…I know ppf won't stick if a coating is laid down first.....

Or I guess to get it down to one question: does ceramic stick to PPF?
 
ClearVue18 said:
That's in there. You can't install PPF over cermaic coating because it will not stick and it's not recommended putting it on top of a ppf. You can install two layer of PPF coating for glass PPF and one layer if it's matte PPF. You have to get the ceramic coating that's designed for ppf. All that does is help propel water off the film but no added protection.

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I think the question is the suitability of applying ceramic coating after PPF install. Does a ceramic on top of PPF provide any additional value?
 
BudgetPlan1 said:
I think the question is the suitability of applying ceramic coating after PPF install. Does a ceramic on top of PPF provide any additional value?
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No it doesn't other than giving your money away just to say it's on there. But it will have to be a cermaic coating designed for ppf.


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Are there specific coatings made to go over PPF? I have never seen it written anywhere in any product description…

I'll send a message to ask Xpel Tech service and see what they have to say.....
 
glen e said:
Are there specific coatings made to go over PPF? I have never seen it written anywhere in any product description…
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Cermaic pro does. You will have to have it installed by a authorized dealer. Keep it mind it's a sales tactic is basically everything it says is doing the paint protection film is already doing it based upon the lifetime of the film. We're a authorized installer but I keep it real with the customer. At the end of the day I'll always take your money but in reality it's really not need.

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glen e said:
Are there specific coatings made to go over PPF? I have never seen it written anywhere in any product description…

I'll send a message to ask Xpel Tech service and see what they have to say.....
Click to expand...
Your Xpel detailer will have to be a authorized installer because at this point he would be guessing if he isn't. If he said uhh. Lol hang up

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Thank you, that's the answer I was looking for. I'll post here what xpel has to say. I've dealt with xpel corporate before, I'm not going to talk to an installer.
 
I will chime into the discussion. Yes you can put a ceramic coating OVER the PPF and in fact many now are producing products just for that purpose (SEMA 2018 new products). If you apply the ceramic coating would you not prefer to have it a consistent appearance? Thus you would not want the 'wet look' on your paint and then just the clear PPF film on some sections?

I watch the YouTubes from Chicago Auto Pros and they do partial and full PPF on many cars, especially the new Tesla models. So I asked then the same question and yes they do put the ceramic coating over the PPF. You can wax and apply sealants over the PPF to make a consistent appearance. None of the coatings will diminish the value of PPF, to protect the paint from surface scratches and minor rock chips.

I have PPF on my Lexus and just did have the old 4-year Suntek film removed for warranty reasons, it turned a shade of yellow. The film was clear but the bonding glue must have changed over time. Now the latest from Suntek (Ultra) and Expel both come with 10-year warranty against yellowing. So if the rocks chips dig in (and they did) the PPF was marred and gouged but NOT the paint.

Hope this helps,

Kirby
Houston

Entire Hood now with PPF, front painted section in bumper, and then splash zones behind wheel wells.
View attachment 65793
 
Thank you Kirby, I understand what you're saying about making it uniform, but I guess the question is if I get good gloss from something like McKees paint sealant and put that everywhere, for $250 product plus labor. A coatingis substantially more expensive, like 4x?

I'm asking for a good friend of mine that just took delivery of a new '19 911 GTS Targa and a detailer asking a huge amount of money to apply the ceramic pro over the PPF xpel. A LOT more than a mckees.

Also, what exact products were released at SEMA that specifically address this situation?
 
Thomkirby said:
I will chime into the discussion. Yes you can put a ceramic coating OVER the PPF and in fact many now are producing products just for that purpose (SEMA 2018 new products). If you apply the ceramic coating would you not prefer to have it a consistent appearance? Thus you would not want the 'wet look' on your paint and then just the clear PPF film on some sections?

I watch the YouTubes from Chicago Auto Pros and they do partial and full PPF on many cars, especially the new Tesla models. So I asked then the same question and yes they do put the ceramic coating over the PPF. You can wax and apply sealants over the PPF to make a consistent appearance. None of the coatings will diminish the value of PPF, to protect the paint from surface scratches and minor rock chips.

I have PPF on my Lexus and just did have the old 4-year Suntek film removed for warranty reasons, it turned a shade of yellow. The film was clear but the bonding glue must have changed over time. Now the latest from Suntek (Ultra) and Expel both come with 10-year warranty against yellowing. So if the rocks chips dig in (and they did) the PPF was marred and gouged but NOT the paint.

Hope this helps,

Kirby
Houston

Entire Hood now with PPF, front painted section in bumper, and then splash zones behind wheel wells.
View attachment 65793
Click to expand...
How long was your film on before your warranty claim with suntek?

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It was applied in Feb-2016 and the product at that time only had a 5-year warranty. It has spent most of its life in my garage and very little time outside on trips 20,000 miles over that period of time. I have read that this was a problem with the glues used in the earlier products. As the car is white, it made the change more apparent. My second problem was the edges started to collect dirt on certain sections. But the PPF did it job on the hood with the rocks thrown up doing down the interstate.
 
Carpro Skin is a new product for PPF and vinyl wrap.
 
glen e said:
Are there specific coatings made to go over PPF? I have never seen it written anywhere in any product description…

I'll send a message to ask Xpel Tech service and see what they have to say.....
Click to expand...

Yes. CarPro Skin and GTechniq Halo. Gyeon has their PPF polish as well.
 
Thomkirby said:
It was applied in Feb-2016 and the product at that time only had a 5-year warranty. It has spent most of its life in my garage and very little time outside on trips 20,000 miles over that period of time. I have read that this was a problem with the glues used in the earlier products. As the car is white, it made the change more apparent. My second problem was the edges started to collect dirt on certain sections. But the PPF did it job on the hood with the rocks thrown up doing down the interstate.
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O wow. That's what I thought. One more question how long do you keep your cars? Also did you do half hood or whole hood and fenders? Just doing a little math.

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