Questions about bonding?

[Madkatz]

hello mike

i know there's been a lot of people saying that glazes affect sealants bonding to the paint especially the oily ones

and i also know that your stand on the issue is that glazes does not affect sealants bonding abilities to the paint

this is my question regarding glazes

1. can you give me some of the best glazes that are most compatible with most sealants?
2. what glazes give the best gloss and look in your opinion?

im still sort of blind shopping around autogeek and im looking for good glaze suggestions, i've tried m07 and so far im very happy with PB blackhole but is there something better? something that can really help in improving the gloss of the paint? Im thinking of incorporating the glaze step with my wax and seal procedure so having that glaze in gallons would also help

Also, i've buffed a black honda civic with its legendary soft clear coat and i've used 3 different products as compounds namely OPT compound, M105 and M85.

i then followed it up with some polishes 3 again namely, OPT polish, SwirlX and m83. i then followed these up with OPT finish, 205 and po85rd.

After the compounding stage, i noticed that im left with holograms which i assume would be normal, so then i hit it with a polish to further refine the paint and remove the holograms, 95% of the holograms come off but there are still a number of large swirls after the polishing stage

I then hit it with the finishing polishes i mentioned and i notice that the holograms are completely gone but im still left with the large circular swirls on the paint

My question would be

1. do i have to hit it again with a compound, im thinking the swirls must be deep enough to still be visible at this stage

2. do i hit it with a polish since using a compound might be overkill

3. or do i use a sort of in-between product between my polishing stage and finishing stage, something that has a cut between the polishing and finishing polish lets say something like Poli-seal or D151 or SwirlX?

I've had this honda on my garage for nearly 2 months because the owner has gone out of the country and i have about a month left to finish my job here but im dumbfounded by the large circular swirls, they don't seem to look deep enough but they certainly didn't come off after all those 3 stages of buffing, and im a little scared of hitting it again with a compound because i don't have a paint thickness gauge and its had 3 exterior details before and i don't know how far those 3 prior exterior details got but i want to be safe on removing the swirls

Thanks in advance!

 

[Madkatz]

Re: Articles by Mike Phillips

oh yeah additional info

Compounds were used with a Makita 9227c along with LC Purple pads

Polishes were used with Makita 9227c along with LC Orange pads

Finishing Polishes were used with Pc7424xp with a LC Black pads

except for po85rd which my BF used with a Makita 9227c with a LC black pad.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Hi Madkatz,

I moved your post out of my thread for my list of articles and created you're own dedicated thread for your questions.

Usually it's a good idea to start a "new" thread for a topic with questions instead of "tagging" it on to an existing thread that my or many not be related to your topic.

and i also know that your stand on the issue is that glazes does not affect sealants bonding abilities to the paint

Also just to note, I alway say to follow the manufactures directions. If a manufacture states their "formula" must be used over a clean surface that is free from any polishing oils or any other substances that may interfere with their proprietary protection ingredients, then you should follow their instructions. So be careful about making generalizations about anyone's "stand". rops:


I'm very careful with the words I choose when I post to any forum due to experience over the years and how some people can make a big deal about the usage or meaning of a single word.

I'll do my best to answer your questions when I get to work, but right now I'm off to the gym...

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

hello mike

i know there's been a lot of people saying that glazes affect sealants bonding to the paint especially the oily ones

Yep... lots of people say that and type it on forums but I've personally never walked out into any garage and seen a coating of car wax or a synthetic paint sealant all piled up on the floor surrounding the car because it slipped off.

and i also know that your stand on the issue is that glazes does not affect sealants bonding abilities to the paint

I wrote a pretty detailed article on this back in 2005, I can probably dig it up but suffice to say... too many people turn applying a coat of wax to their car's paint into rocket science. I don't have a problem with that but as for me I like to keep it a little more simple and that helps to keep it fun.

this is my question regarding glazes

1. can you give me some of the best glazes that are most compatible with most sealants?

2. what glazes give the best gloss and look in your opinion?

1. Answer to your first question is to simply stay withing a product line. If you're going to use Wolfgang, use all Wolfgang. If you're going to use Griot's Garage products then use all Griot's Garage products.

Then TRUST that the chemist that creates the formulas creates the follow-up products to be compatible with the first step products and to actually build-on and maximize the results previously achieved.


2. This gets into the slippery slope of what is a "glaze"? As discussed to death already, the word glaze is used on waxes, synthetic paint sealants, abrasive polishes and non-abrasive polishes.

The traditional use for the term was for body shop safe products used on fresh paint that are not abrasive but used to make paint look clear and glossy before a customer picks up the car to take it home.

For this use of the word then a glaze would be non-abrasive and non-drying so as to impart a wet look. Look to products targeted towards body shops for use on fresh paint and then try to stay inside a single product line to fit criteria of your first question.

im still sort of blind shopping around autogeek and im looking for good glaze suggestions, i've tried m07 and so far im very happy with PB blackhole but is there something better? something that can really help in improving the gloss of the paint? Im thinking of incorporating the glaze step with my wax and seal procedure so having that glaze in gallons would also help

The first step to creating gloss is to create a very smooth and defect free surface. After you've done this then sounds like you've tried two very popular products and you may have hit a ceiling or maxed out the shine potential for the paint you're working on?

What other glazes are you considering?

Also, i've buffed a black honda civic with its legendary soft clear coat and i've used 3 different products as compounds namely OPT compound, M105 and M85.

i then followed it up with some polishes 3 again namely, OPT polish, SwirlX and m83. i then followed these up with OPT finish, 205 and po85rd.

After the compounding stage, i noticed that im left with holograms which i assume would be normal, so then i hit it with a polish to further refine the paint and remove the holograms, 95% of the holograms come off but there are still a number of large swirls after the polishing stage

I then hit it with the finishing polishes i mentioned and i notice that the holograms are completely gone but im still left with the large circular swirls on the paint

My question would be

1. do i have to hit it again with a compound, im thinking the swirls must be deep enough to still be visible at this stage

2. do i hit it with a polish since using a compound might be overkill

3. or do i use a sort of in-between product between my polishing stage and finishing stage, something that has a cut between the polishing and finishing polish lets say something like Poli-seal or D151 or SwirlX?

I've had this honda on my garage for nearly 2 months because the owner has gone out of the country and i have about a month left to finish my job here but im dumbfounded by the large circular swirls, they don't seem to look deep enough but they certainly didn't come off after all those 3 stages of buffing, and im a little scared of hitting it again with a compound because i don't have a paint thickness gauge and its had 3 exterior details before and i don't know how far those 3 prior exterior details got but i want to be safe on removing the swirls

Thanks in advance!

This would actually be better posted in it's own thread.

A thread about glazes and a thread about troubleshooting where the large circle scratches came from?

Posting lots and lots of questions and different topics into one all encompassing post is okay but it does make it hard to answer easily. It will usually scare away others from replying because of the complexity of trying to answer the multiple questions.

Just a tip... I actually have an article on how to write a good post and it states to try to limit your initial questions to 3-4 and have them all around the same topic.

If you have questions about a different topic, then start a new thread for that topic and again, start with just a few questions.

This is how you help your self to help yourself...

But let me take a stab at the above questions...

Also, i've buffed a black honda civic with its legendary soft clear coat and i've used 3 different products as compounds namely OPT compound, M105 and M85.

i then followed it up with some polishes 3 again namely, OPT polish, SwirlX and m83. i then followed these up with OPT finish, 205 and po85rd.

After the compounding stage, i noticed that im left with holograms which i assume would be normal, so then i hit it with a polish to further refine the paint and remove the holograms, 95% of the holograms come off but there are still a number of large swirls after the polishing stage

There are large swirls and deep swirls, which one are you seeing?

A large swirl could be caused by an abrasive particle getting trapped against the paint and rubbed in a large, pattern of some sort making it a "Large Swirl".

A deep swirl could be large or tiny and it would show up to your eyes because it wasn't removed during the initial compounding step. I call these RIDS and wrote an article about it in my list of articles.

I often suggest to people working on a "Daily Driver" to learn to live with the RIDS because the paint on a factory finish is so thin that trying to remove the random, deeper, isolated scratches could be risky and if it is in fact a daily driver than it's going to see more wear and tear into the future... so what's the point?

If it's a show car that is garage kept and only displayed at special events under EXTREME lighting conditions, then sure.. maybe try to work out the RIDS

I then hit it with the finishing polishes i mentioned and i notice that the holograms are completely gone but im still left with the large circular swirls on the paint

Here read this and let me know exactly what these "circular swirls" are that you're seeing?

RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term...


If these swirls look like a half circle, or an arc and you're using a ROTARY BUFFER, then it sounds like you've trapped some type of abrasive particle between the pad and the paint and you've instilled Arc Scratches.

Don't know if that's the case because I don't think you ever mentioned what kind of tool you're using?????????????????????

My question would be

1. do i have to hit it again with a compound, im thinking the swirls must be deep enough to still be visible at this stage

2. do i hit it with a polish since using a compound might be overkill

3. or do i use a sort of in-between product between my polishing stage and finishing stage, something that has a cut between the polishing and finishing polish lets say something like Poli-seal or D151 or SwirlX?

First let us know what kind of tool you're using...

Then we trouble shoot....

I've had this honda on my garage for nearly 2 months because the owner has gone out of the country and i have about a month left to finish my job here but im dumbfounded by the large circular swirls, they don't seem to look deep enough but they certainly didn't come off after all those 3 stages of buffing, and im a little scared of hitting it again with a compound because i don't have a paint thickness gauge and its had 3 exterior details before and i don't know how far those 3 prior exterior details got but i want to be safe on removing the swirls

Thanks in advance!

Off the top of my head it sounds like you're using a rotary buffer and trying to do all the steps using only a rotary buffer.

Creating a 100% swirl free finish using only a rotary buffer is harder than most people think. It can be done but it's really only since SMAT products were introduced that I've seen skilled detailers be able to do this on a consistent basis.

To make it easy, I alway recommend to people to finish out with a DA Polisher, the oscillating action will remove swirls without re-instilling them and anyone can do it regardless of skill level.

Whew... I should have manually broke your post up into two threads... as it's not going to get any cleaner or easier to continue all these multiple discussions in a single thread....

 

[Madkatz]

Hi Madkatz,

I moved your post out of my thread for my list of articles and created you're own dedicated thread for your questions.

Usually it's a good idea to start a "new" thread for a topic with questions instead of "tagging" it on to an existing thread that my or many not be related to your topic.



Also just to note, I alway say to follow the manufactures directions. If a manufacture states their "formula" must be used over a clean surface that is free from any polishing oils or any other substances that may interfere with their proprietary protection ingredients, then you should follow their instructions. So be careful about making generalizations about anyone's "stand". rops:


I'm very careful with the words I choose when I post to any forum due to experience over the years and how some people can make a big deal about the usage or meaning of a single word.

I'll do my best to answer your questions when I get to work, but right now I'm off to the gym...

Oh im very sorry about that mike, i guess i misinterpreted one of your posts, and now that i think of it, yeah i agree that you are very careful about your words now that im doing a back reading, and yes i would understand why you would be with all the people reading your posts its definitely gonna be a big issue if you say something wrong, im very sorry and i truly apologize for the statement i just made.

 

[Madkatz]

Regarding the glazes im looking at

3m Imperial Hand Glaze

Pinnacle XMT Carnauba Finishing Glaze

Menzerna Finishing Glaze

Griots Paint Glaze

I have some Wolfgang Finishing Glaze but i've read somewhere that its more of a finishing polish, is that true?

 

[Dubbin1]

Yep... lots of people say that and type it on forums but I've personally never walked out into any garage and seen a coating of car wax or a synthetic paint sealant all piled up on the floor surrounding the car because it slipped off.

Do you think that could be because the wax/sealant never bonded and came off when they were wiping off the wax/sealant after applying?

 

[Madkatz]

Regarding the scratches

Well it looks like RIDS alright, its like 95% of the swirls are gone and im left with 5% thats very visible

I know arc scratches and i've also had some instilled on the paint but i was able to remove them as well

the machine i used is a Makita 9227c for the compounding stages with a purple foam-wool pad

and then makita 9227c again for the polishing stage using orange pad

and lastly finishing polish with the PC7424xp with a black finishing pad

well im already quite sure its RIDS based on the pictures and according to some order sources of pictures, if this is the problem how do i address the problem? sadly its a show car and we're having it compete on an upcoming show thats why i really have to work on it and thats why we're also looking into glazes to get the best look possible

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Regarding the scratches

Well it looks like RIDS alright, its like 95% of the swirls are gone and im left with 5% thats very visible

Kind of figured this was the problem, for anyone reading this wondering...

Tracers Tracers - RIDS - Pigtails - Cobweb Swirls - Rotary Buffer Swirls - Holograms - Water Spots - Bird Drooping Etchings - Micro-Marring

I know arc scratches and i've also had some instilled on the paint but i was able to remove them as well

Compounding Arc Scratches
These are arc-scratches inflicted while the paint was being buffed with a rotary buffer. These scratches could have been caused by a dirty, contaminated pad with some kind of abrasive particles trapped between the pad and the paint. It could even be from the abrasive particles in the compound. This shows the importance of working clean and using quality products.

the machine i used is a Makita 9227c for the compounding stages with a purple foam-wool pad and then makita 9227c again for the polishing stage using orange pad and lastly finishing polish with the PC7424xp with a black finishing pad

The rotary buffer and the PC 7424XP are a powerful Tag Team, there's pretty much nothing you can't do without them.

Fed myself for years with a Makita Rotary Buffer... wore the sand cast rough side of mine smooth like a piece of chrome...

well im already quite sure its RIDS based on the pictures and according to some order sources of pictures, if this is the problem how do i address the problem?

Just happen to have an article on this...

RIDS and Feathersanding - A Highly Specialized Technique by Mike Phillips

Sand each RIDS out by hand, [carefully] then remove your sanding marks.

sadly its a show car and we're having it compete on an upcoming show thats why i really have to work on it and thats why we're also looking into glazes to get the best look possible

M81 applied with a DA Polisher and wiped -off before it dries

A long time favorite for use with a rotary is M03 Machine Glaze, this is like a wetter version of M07 and M81 and can be applied using a rotary buffer. I wouldn't personally for a clear coat finish but instead would still use a DA or by hand.