Seeing Dots! Help! - Pinhole or Solvent Pop? Common Paint Issue

[ph16]

Seeing Dots! Help! - Pinhole or Solvent Pop? Common Paint Issue



Started polishing the hood today and had to stop because when I was done, I saw these tiny little dots all over that I couldn't remove. Here's the pictures.

Before starting:

After polishing (the swirls are gone but these dots are present):

The process I used was that I clay bared the hood and then used Menz PO85RD and grey pad with the PC on 5. (I put the product on only after misting the (new) CCS pad with the XMT conditioner.) After wiping that off (and it took a lot of effort because it was dry in places), I used a blue pad with the same Menz product and same PC setting. That wiped off a lot easier. The working time of the Menz product was like 30 seconds before it started to dry. I tried using more product. I tried using less product. The pad was not spinning like it should have either. I don't know what I'm doing wrong there because I've watched the process of Mike Phillips using the PC and it seemed like he had twice the working time that I had - different products though.

When I pulled the vehicle out into the sun, I saw these dots. I tried using the gray pad again but still no luck with the dots. I'm starting to question if they were there to begin with and I just didn't use an aggressive enough product from the start to remove them. I have some PO106FA but didn't want to go any further until I consulted with the forum.

Does anyone know what these dots are and if I put them in the finish? And does anyone know why the working time of the Menz product was so short?
:surrender:

 

[NotZeroSix]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Those holes youre seeing are called solvent popping.Theres nothing you can do to them other than respray the panel. Though unattractive, do not worry cause these are quite common on some vehicles.

Heres a quote from Mike Philips

The tiny craters or pin holes you see are more than likely what' called Solvent Popping, which occurred when the paint was sprayed. These pin holes are actually present on the before side except because there are so many swirls in the before side, the swirls hide the solvent popping pin holes.

No amount of buffing will remove solvent popping because the holes are throughout the layer of paint, not just on the surface. Compounding and polishing more and more will just remove more paint and reveal a greater depth of the pin holes, it won't make the problem go away.

Keep in mind this is a very high resolution camera and it's being held very close to the paint. After polishing and waxing and then looking at the paint from a normal distance you don't really see them. The only fix is to repaint the entire car or the affected panels.

 

[ph16]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Those holes youre seeing are called solvent popping.Theres nothing you can do to them other than respray the panel. Dont worry, cause these are common on Hard clear coat volvo s40.

Heres a quote from Mike Philips
[qoute]The tiny craters or pin holes you see are more than likely what' called Solvent Popping, which occurred when the paint was sprayed. These pin holes are actually present on the before side except because there are so many swirls in the before side, the swirls hide the solvent popping pin holes.

No amount of buffing will remove solvent popping because the holes are throughout the layer of paint, not just on the surface. Compounding and polishing more and more will just remove more paint and reveal a greater depth of the pin holes, it won't make the problem go away.

Keep in mind this is a very high resolution camera and it's being held very close to the paint. After polishing and waxing and then looking at the paint from a normal distance you don't really see them. The only fix is to repaint the entire car or the affected panels. [/qoute]

Thank you Not0, I'm relieved that I didn't do this but I'm also dismayed that my hood looks like this now. It's true, the swirl marks do hide them. I know it's only a toyota truck and not a ferrari but I want my finish to look awesome. Rats!!!!!

Any idea on the working time issue?

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Has the hood been repainted, if not, they are not solvent pop spots. They are more than likely from the sand blasting effect you get from debris from driving on the road. They become very obvious after a vehicle is polished because they stand out against the shiney paint. There was a thread on this before, Jason(DeepGloss) and I explained this on that thread also.

 

[ph16]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Has the hood been repainted, if not, they are not solvent pop spots. They are more than likely from the sand blasting effect you get from debris from driving on the road. They become very obvious after a vehicle is polished because they stand out against the shiney paint. There was a thread on this before, Jason(DeepGloss) and I explained this on that thread also.

It is the factory paint. I guess they could be from road debris because I did not see them on my test area which was the tailgate. The dots are pretty consistent all over the hood. Do you have a link to the thread you mentioned?

edit: is this the link?
http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/19565-white-dots.html

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Thats the thread. I have a few on the hood of my vette also. Like I said it is not solvent pop, it is the sand blasting effect while driving from the debris in the air.

 

[ph16]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Thank you very much Rocket rops:,

Soo . . . if by chance I use a polish with more cut I could minimize how many there are and then maybe invest in a bug deflector?

Anyhow, any thoughts on what I may be doing wrong with regards to the short working time of the Menz product?

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Thank you very much Rocket rops:,

Soo . . . if by chance I use a polish with more cut I could minimize how many there are and then maybe invest in a bug deflector?

Anyhow, any thoughts on what I may be doing wrong with regards to the short working time of the Menz product?

You could minimize them if they are shallow, but since they are white they are through the color coat so unless you repaint they will always be there. A bug deflector would be big a big help.

Sounds like you are not using the right amount of product and also take your pc up to 6. The polish should work longer than 30 seconds for sure. If with a rotary it works longer than than that. Was it cool out, if so it sounds like it isn't spreading like it should. To keep the bottle of polish warm fill up something with very warm ater and keep the bottle in that or some other type of heat source to keep the polish in a more liquid state.

 

[ph16]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

I will keep that in mind. I started at #3 and then went to #5 once it was spread out as per Mike's videos. The amount I put on the pad was a circle about 1/2" inside the circumference of the 6-1/2" pad. The temp was around 70 today so I didn't cool or heat the product. All of my detailing products stay inside the house until needed so I know they were at the same temp. And the truck stayed in the garage so there was no sun directly on it while I was polishing and the engine was cool. Thanks so much for the advice Rocket. I appreciate your time.

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

You are welcome, anytime. Sounds like you are going to have to find just the right amount of polish then. I use about about four dots on a pad with a rotary and its work time is over a minute.

 

[ph16]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

I had a thought. I tried to polish in a localized area first with Wolfgang paintwork enhancer, once with a Megs polish, twice with PO106FA, 4 times with ScratchX and it didn't even make a dent in the dots. I realize that they could be from road debris but it seems far too consistent from the front of the hood to the back, left to right and I started wondering, could this be metal flake I'm seeing? Here's some photos.

Some of the dots are seen around the edge of the flourescent light.

I'm not trying to deny the advice that's been offered but trying to rule out other explanations. I haven't polished on any of the side panels yet to see if the dots are there as well.

 

[OGauge4Me]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Asphalt Rocket:
Would a glaze help in this situation or one of the commercially available color fill waxes help?

I realize that a repaint is the best fix but in this case there may be a temp work around.

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Asphalt Rocket:
Would a glaze help in this situation or one of the commercially available color fill waxes help?

I realize that a repaint is the best fix but in this case there may be a temp work around.

Unfortunetly there is nothing that will cover it up. The little holes are so deep that nothing is going to fill them up. The reason they are white is they are below the color. Every car has them that drives up down the road, it is worse if you have to drive on a highway everyday.

 

[ph16]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Ok, after some further investigation, I gave some bad info. I noticed that the dots start at about 6" from the front of the hood (where I would expect them to be worse if they were road-blasting) and all the way to the back of the hood from left to right. I also do not see any dots on the front of any of the fenders. I believe it has something to do with the paint but I need an expert to look at it to confirm this.

Per OGauge's PM, I tried the "hand in a baggie" and I was impressed at how much this can tell about the finish. It magnified x1000 what can be felt by hand. It felt smooth at the front of the hood and rough towards the back (over the dots) even though the entire hood was polished. I also tried a toothpick to gently try to put it in one of the dots but this was inconclusive.

I looked at the front of the roof, again weighing the possibility that it is in fact road-blasting. After clay baring it, it felt smooth (w/ the baggie) and there was evidence of road-blasting but it was a different appearance and pattern than what's on the hood. Not to mention that I hadn't polished the roof yet so I feel confident that what little was there could be corrected.

I apoligize for saying that the dots were over the entire hood. This new information makes me lean farther from road-blasting and more towards something else. What that something else is, I don't know. I'm not one to disagree with experience and Asphalt, if AGO had a rep system, I'd have repped you several times for all your help, not just in this thread but others as well. Not to mention that you have much more experience at this than I, I'm the new kid on the block. Something just isn't adding up - that's all I'm saying.

I think my next step is to have someone experienced take a look at it. Because if it is a problem with the paint, it shouldn't be doing that and Toyota is going to hear about it especially in light of how I take care of my truck plus it's still under warranty. I fully expect to hear "NO" and that I'll have to pay for the respray myself but nothing ventured . . .

Does anyone know a reputable and honest professional in Northern Ohio who can look at my hood and give me an honest opinion?

Sorry for the long blog and thanks again for all the help.

Still learning,
Paul

P.S. shouldn't this guy be using the two bucket method? :autowash:

 

[JohnHenry]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Has the hood been repainted, if not, they are not solvent pop spots.

You sure about that, AR?

I don't know what the spots are on PH16's car, but I find solvent pops (pinholes) on factory paint all the time. I've had more than one discussion with car owners about these tiny holes. Prior to polishing, the pops are "filled" with dirt, old wax, oxidation. When I recondition the paint, the holes appear because the clearcoat has been leveled, removing the debris from the holes. (This is my very unscientific theory.)

Some customers have questioned the mysterious appearance of pinholes in their paint after polishing.

If someone has a better explanation, I'm all ears.

 

[ASPHALT ROCKET]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

You sure about that, AR?

I don't know what the spots are on PH16's car, but I find solvent pops (pinholes) on factory paint all the time. I've had more than one discussion with car owners about these tiny holes. Prior to polishing, the pops are "filled" with dirt, old wax, oxidation. When I recondition the paint, the holes appear because the clearcoat has been leveled, removing the debris from the holes. (This is my very unscientific theory.)

Some customers have questioned the mysterious appearance of pinholes in their paint after polishing.

If someone has a better explanation, I'm all ears.

I haven't seen solvent pop on any new cars, but do see alot of the sand blasting on the new cars, just like the newer windshields also seem to be softer and have the road rash effect.

Ph16, thanks for the kind words. From what you are saying now it seems like maybe some kind of chemical might of gotten on the paint. Unless you can find someone in person that you can trust and has the knowledge of paint you really are not going to know. Unfortunetly the pics are hard to tell what it really is now.

 

[ph16]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

*****UPDATE*****

So now that spring is here and the sun is shining in Ohio, I decided to take the truck back to Toyota for the dots on the hood which are still there. I rode with the service manager to a local body shop (not Toyota) where they take their work to. The guy at the body shop said that the dots were in the clear coat and that they would try a few things before resorting to completely repainting the entire hood. But the entire visit was leaning in my favor. Anyhow, the manager is going to call me next week at which time I'll ask point blank, "This is under warranty right?" I mean, I'm still well within my 3yr/36k. It sounded to me like they wanted me to tell them how to proceed.

*****QUESTIONS*****

The body shop indicated that they could try wet sanding w/ 3000 to see if that removes the dots. Which to me brings a whole new set of concerns about this whole process. I told them that I don't want to be left with a miniscule amount of clear when they're all done. I told him also that I didn't want a glaze which to me is just a bandaid until my warranty ends next January (2011) and the glaze "wears off." I don't know the first thing about this body shop other than that this dealership takes their vehicles there.

HOW SHOULD I HANDLE THIS???? What should I insist on happening? Can clear coat be reapplied after the wet sand if the existing clear becomes too thin?

THANK YOU FOR ANY ADVICE YOU CAN OFFER,
Paul
Feed back please

 

[A4 1.8tqm]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

I too have the little pin hole dot's on my hood, but not on the bumper or quarter panels. The hood is factory (to my knowledge) and with the same experience you went through in the OP, followed by research I still haven't determined if it's solvent popping, the sand blasting effect or something else. I did the same thing, tape off an area and try to reduce the appearance by sanding/polishing. It did not help at all. The dots seem too evenly distributed and out of the way for road debris to hit and chip. I intend to try spraying new clear on the whole hood sometime, till then I just live with them.

Mentioning that you don't want a glaze was good, may have saved you from a headache. I've sprayed rattle-can clear on my bumper over the (sanded and prepped) factory clear with great results, so I'm sure a pro painter could do it. IMO if the shop thinks they can get them out with 3000 grit, I wouldn't have them work on my car at all. Good luck :xyxthumbs:

 

[O.C.Detailing]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Actually, if you read some of Mike's posts, you'll see that wet-sanding is in some ways the less aggressive way of removing serious defects rather than polishing over and over again. I'm a HUGE fan of wetsanding as I've seen it remove incredible amounts of defects in a very short period of time and still leave lots of clear on the paint. Don't be afraid if they're going to wet-sand with 3000 grit. That's almost a piece of notebook paper in terms of cutting power. I wetsand with 2500 grit all the time. Good luck with your issues. I hope they fix it for you under warranty. That blue is an awesome color!

 

[ph16]

Re: Seeing Dots! Help!

Actually, if you read some of Mike's posts, you'll see that wet-sanding is in some ways the less aggressive way of removing serious defects rather than polishing over and over again. I'm a HUGE fan of wetsanding as I've seen it remove incredible amounts of defects in a very short period of time and still leave lots of clear on the paint. Don't be afraid if they're going to wet-sand with 3000 grit. That's almost a piece of notebook paper in terms of cutting power. I wetsand with 2500 grit all the time. Good luck with your issues. I hope they fix it for you under warranty. That blue is an awesome color!

Thanks Adam. I was told by the body shop guy that the clear on the Toys was about 2mils thick (.002") which doesn't seem thick to me at all. But I guess I won't be afraid to go the wet sand route with them.