Mike Phillips
Active member
- Dec 5, 2022
- 51,004
- 6
Re: Seeing Dots! Help!
This is were a seasoned and expert Paint Instructor from a paint manufacturer would really come in handy to ask questions because I've seen the craters or pinholes on repaints and factory paint and on factory paint when it's uniform throughout the entire finish it doesn't make sense that it would be the sand blasting effect from debris off the road or in the wind.
I lived in the Mojave Desert for over 7 years, it's very WINDY in the desert and very SANDY in the desert. There are times when I"ve been driving down residential roads where the wind was blowing so hard and there was so much dirt/dust/SAND in the air that it sounded and felt like your car's paint was being sand blasted.
I've operated sand blasters for a job at one time, my friend built the largest sand blaster I've ever seen, this thing could cut through metal if you held the nozzle in once place to long.
I taught classes at Meguiar's from 2002 through 2009 and one thing I've seen a lot of is hoods and bumpers and even windshields that look like they've been sand blasted and if I were to ask the person if they drove to Las Vegas a lot the answer would usually be "Yes". The highway from Orange County to Las Vegas is the I-15, I drove the I-15 every time I drove to work and a few times from Apple Valley to Las Vegas or Lake Havasu, when the wind kicks up which is most of the time your car will be hit by dirt, dust, debris and sand as you drive and it will leave pinholes or craters and chipped paint on the front of your car.
It certainly made me never want to own a nice car if I were to have to drive the I-15 a lot. Luckily I worked from home and only had to drive from Apple Valley to Irvine for when I had a class to teach. Point being... I've seen sand blasted cars and it's a different look than pinholes from solvent popping.
Here is what solvent popping looks like, I took this picture from the 1957 Chevrolet I buffed out last summer using the Flex 3401. This cannot be fixed because as I was quoted from another thread [in this thread]
Here's the thread and here are the pictures with my comments from that thread dated,
1957 Chevrolet Belair Extreme Makeover - Flex 3401 & Wolfgang Smackdown!
Also, usually after polishing, since a lot of polishes are white or whitish in color and also tend to dry very white, the pinholes or craters stand out like a Sore Thumb because they are now filled with white residue and it contrast against medium to dark color paints.
Like I stated above, I've seen a lot of "FACTORY" paint with what looks like solvent popping, whether it's actually solvent popping or not I don't know. All I know is that one of the things we did at all the Meguiar's classes is take daily driver cars that were thrashed and polish them out to a clear, swirl-free shine and after doing this often times these tiny holes or craters show up in the paint.
It's usually very disappointing to the owner of the car but there's really nothing you can do outside of having the affected panel re-painted.
Here's one idea but I'm not officially saying this is the problem. When a problem happens to just the hood of a car, one thing that could be a factor is HEAT, as in heat rising off the engine.
The problem with this idea is that the pinholes or craters, because they tend to be throughout the layer or matrix of paint doesn't make sense because the paint is cured hard by the time any substantial heat from the engine can be transferred to the hood by driving it for periods of time, so while it's an influencing factor, my guess is that it's not really a problem at least as it's related to pinholes in factory paint.
My guess is the problem takes place during the painting process and it's actually somehow sub-surface and then when the finish is machine polished and some of the top layer of paint is removed the underlying craters appear.
This is just a guess because I've worked on a zillion hoods and often times you don't see the pinholes before polishing but you do after polishing. It could be they are present before you start polishing and you're eyes just can see them due to the swirls and other defects camouflaging them but it would take some methodical testing to troubleshoot or isolated this factor and when you're teaching a class with about 30 people in it you really don't have this kind of time to get this deep.
Another theory I've had for some time is that these pinholes or craters are areas with softer paint, or somehow defective from the spraying process and after machine buffing with anything abrasive you remove, or even pull-out paint from these tiny areas and get this pinhole looking effect. (Just some guessing)
Just to note, we show the plastic baggie technique in this video...
Direct Link: How detailing clay works and how to use detailing clay to remove above surface bonded contaminants
It does dramatically increase the sensitivity of your sense of touch...
Everyone reading this thread now and into the future would love to hear what Toyota says about the problem so if possible, please do follow-up this thread with any conclusions they come up with.
I'm vindicating you on your post John, I've seen this problem all the time and it really doesn't seem to show up till after a thorough machine cleaning and polishing as stated above. You can only imagine how much fun it is to show a class of 20 to 50 people a swirl-free finish but a finish with pinholes after being polished and all you can do at that point is try to explain it and it's never fun and most people, especially the car owner are usually disappointed in their cars' paint.
Confirmation and vindication of everything we're all discussing here on the forum.
You nailed all the important points that --> you <-- will be affected by.
Taking great pictures and documenting this on a public forum is a great way to start. Clear can be re-cleared but most reputable painters are going to want to start over and re-paint both the basecoat and the clearcoat.
The bigger picture is that this is a problem for lots of car owners they just don't know it because they're not into detailing their cars and hanging out on discussion forums.
Keep us updated and I'll make a few phone calls to see if I can dig up some more information on this problem.
This is were a seasoned and expert Paint Instructor from a paint manufacturer would really come in handy to ask questions because I've seen the craters or pinholes on repaints and factory paint and on factory paint when it's uniform throughout the entire finish it doesn't make sense that it would be the sand blasting effect from debris off the road or in the wind.
I lived in the Mojave Desert for over 7 years, it's very WINDY in the desert and very SANDY in the desert. There are times when I"ve been driving down residential roads where the wind was blowing so hard and there was so much dirt/dust/SAND in the air that it sounded and felt like your car's paint was being sand blasted.
I've operated sand blasters for a job at one time, my friend built the largest sand blaster I've ever seen, this thing could cut through metal if you held the nozzle in once place to long.
I taught classes at Meguiar's from 2002 through 2009 and one thing I've seen a lot of is hoods and bumpers and even windshields that look like they've been sand blasted and if I were to ask the person if they drove to Las Vegas a lot the answer would usually be "Yes". The highway from Orange County to Las Vegas is the I-15, I drove the I-15 every time I drove to work and a few times from Apple Valley to Las Vegas or Lake Havasu, when the wind kicks up which is most of the time your car will be hit by dirt, dust, debris and sand as you drive and it will leave pinholes or craters and chipped paint on the front of your car.
It certainly made me never want to own a nice car if I were to have to drive the I-15 a lot. Luckily I worked from home and only had to drive from Apple Valley to Irvine for when I had a class to teach. Point being... I've seen sand blasted cars and it's a different look than pinholes from solvent popping.
Here is what solvent popping looks like, I took this picture from the 1957 Chevrolet I buffed out last summer using the Flex 3401. This cannot be fixed because as I was quoted from another thread [in this thread]
Mike Phillips said:
Here's the thread and here are the pictures with my comments from that thread dated,
1957 Chevrolet Belair Extreme Makeover - Flex 3401 & Wolfgang Smackdown!
Mike Phillips said:This is the after side. The tiny craters or pin holes you see are more than likely what' called Solvent Popping, which occurred when the paint was sprayed. These pin holes are actually present on the before side except because there are so many swirls in the before side, the swirls hide the solvent popping pin holes.
No amount of buffing will remove solvent popping because the holes are throughout the layer of paint, not just on the surface. Compounding and polishing more and more will just remove more paint and reveal a greater depth of the pin holes, it won't make the problem go away.
Keep in mind this is a very high resolution camera and it's being held very close to the paint. After polishing and waxing and then looking at the paint from a normal distance you don't really see them. The only fix is to repaint the entire car or the affected panels.
And a shot right on the tape-line...
Also, usually after polishing, since a lot of polishes are white or whitish in color and also tend to dry very white, the pinholes or craters stand out like a Sore Thumb because they are now filled with white residue and it contrast against medium to dark color paints.
Like I stated above, I've seen a lot of "FACTORY" paint with what looks like solvent popping, whether it's actually solvent popping or not I don't know. All I know is that one of the things we did at all the Meguiar's classes is take daily driver cars that were thrashed and polish them out to a clear, swirl-free shine and after doing this often times these tiny holes or craters show up in the paint.
It's usually very disappointing to the owner of the car but there's really nothing you can do outside of having the affected panel re-painted.
Here's one idea but I'm not officially saying this is the problem. When a problem happens to just the hood of a car, one thing that could be a factor is HEAT, as in heat rising off the engine.
The problem with this idea is that the pinholes or craters, because they tend to be throughout the layer or matrix of paint doesn't make sense because the paint is cured hard by the time any substantial heat from the engine can be transferred to the hood by driving it for periods of time, so while it's an influencing factor, my guess is that it's not really a problem at least as it's related to pinholes in factory paint.
My guess is the problem takes place during the painting process and it's actually somehow sub-surface and then when the finish is machine polished and some of the top layer of paint is removed the underlying craters appear.
This is just a guess because I've worked on a zillion hoods and often times you don't see the pinholes before polishing but you do after polishing. It could be they are present before you start polishing and you're eyes just can see them due to the swirls and other defects camouflaging them but it would take some methodical testing to troubleshoot or isolated this factor and when you're teaching a class with about 30 people in it you really don't have this kind of time to get this deep.
Another theory I've had for some time is that these pinholes or craters are areas with softer paint, or somehow defective from the spraying process and after machine buffing with anything abrasive you remove, or even pull-out paint from these tiny areas and get this pinhole looking effect. (Just some guessing)
Just to note, we show the plastic baggie technique in this video...
Direct Link: How detailing clay works and how to use detailing clay to remove above surface bonded contaminants
It does dramatically increase the sensitivity of your sense of touch...
Everyone reading this thread now and into the future would love to hear what Toyota says about the problem so if possible, please do follow-up this thread with any conclusions they come up with.
I'm vindicating you on your post John, I've seen this problem all the time and it really doesn't seem to show up till after a thorough machine cleaning and polishing as stated above. You can only imagine how much fun it is to show a class of 20 to 50 people a swirl-free finish but a finish with pinholes after being polished and all you can do at that point is try to explain it and it's never fun and most people, especially the car owner are usually disappointed in their cars' paint.
Confirmation and vindication of everything we're all discussing here on the forum.
You nailed all the important points that --> you <-- will be affected by.
- Sanding removes paint
- Buffing out sanding marks removes a little more paint
- Factory paint is thin to start with
Taking great pictures and documenting this on a public forum is a great way to start. Clear can be re-cleared but most reputable painters are going to want to start over and re-paint both the basecoat and the clearcoat.
The bigger picture is that this is a problem for lots of car owners they just don't know it because they're not into detailing their cars and hanging out on discussion forums.
Keep us updated and I'll make a few phone calls to see if I can dig up some more information on this problem.
