Show car shine vs paint protection film?

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GeekGWCT

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Show car shine vs paint protection film?


I am considering having (at least) my front bumper and hood covered with a paint protection film (likely with SunTek Ultra or Xpel Ultimate) primarily to protect against rock chips.

I also just bought some P21S 100% Carnauba Wax and am thinking about trying Pinnacle Natural Brilliance Souveran Past Wax. My interest in these waxes is due to the shine. I don't care about longevity as I enjoy waxing my car. My car is black.
(I am assuming that show car shine/the best shine requires wax)

It seems that there are videos on virtually every car topic but I can't find anything on waxing paint protection film. It is rarely mentioned in a forums & some people indicate that they have put wax on paint protection film. However, it seems that (at least) some manufacturers discourage the practice. I was hoping for some clarity.

My question(s)...
If you elect to have paint protection film on your car, are you also making a decision to forgo the "show car shine"?
If you can't get "show car shine" with a paint protection film, what is the next best shine alternative with paint protection film... and how much of a step down in shine in this/are their gloss meter comparisons?
If you want "show car shine" and can't get it with paint protection film, is there another way to "fully" protect against rock chips and still use wax?
 
You can still get a show car shine when you want PPF installed. You just want to make sure that the panels you are planning to install PPF on is perfectly polished, swirl-free and up to your standards of a "show car shine". You don't have to put on LSP before the PPF is installed. Then have the PPF installed then you can apply your LSP (coating/sealant/wax) on top of your PPF.
 
Funny, I didn't see this thread when posting a follow up to my Xpel concerns, which is now right below your thread on the title page.
So GeekGWCT, yes, my car is new, and my installer took the proper steps to insure the film shines. Before I had it done, he told me he would decon, and polish the areas to be done. He deconed even though it's a new car.
I had a few chips on my new car, and that's why I decided to do this. I fixed the chips with DR.ColorChip. and you can't tell where they're filled in unless you knew where they were. If you're going to take the car on the highway, I don't think you can avoid chips. That being said, I don't think you'll be disappointed with Xpel, as long as you find a well qualified installer and discuss your concerns with them.
 
Marc08EX said:
You can still get a show car shine when you want PPF installed. You just want to make sure that the panels you are planning to install PPF on is perfectly polished, swirl-free and up to your standards of a "show car shine". You don't have to put on LSP before the PPF is installed. Then have the PPF installed then you can apply your LSP (coating/sealant/wax) on top of your PPF.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
Some thoughts...Wax on Paint Protection Film. From Xpel's web site...
"Contamination from road oils, diesel smoke, pollen, and pollution can cause discoloration and deglossing of the film. While traditional automotive waxes can provide a small level of protection against contamination, XPEL Flawless Finish Film Sealant is designed specifically to provide the strongest possible barrier against these and other contaminants. Moreover, waxes that contain dyes and other chemicals such as naphtha or kerosene may discolor or degloss the film over time and should be avoided."
Care Instructions - XPEL
They don't really seam to be advocating the use of wax. Additionally, manufacturers of any automotive products rarely/never list the product's chemical composition. As such, I am not sure how a consumer would know if their wax contains naphtha or kerosene. Xpel most know that their guidance will cause people to avoid using wax on their product.
 
GeekGWCT said:
is there another way to "fully" protect
against rock chips and still use wax?
Click to expand...
You'd probably have to use one of the
"vinyl bras", that's specifically made
for your vehicle, to be "fully" protected.
(They actually provide more protection
from road debris than does PPF, IMO.)

They're removable for Car Shows
and maintenance.


Note:
Some of the "vinyl bras" will also provide
at least some partial hood protection

IMG_26022.JPG



Bob
 
Mike Phillips and Paint Protection Film
The primary reason that I posted to this specific forum is that I have two assumptions
1. Mike knows a lot about show car shine and
2. Mike isn't into PPF.

Why do I think Mike isn't into Paint Protective Film...
a. 35,000+ posts and Mike hasn't mentioned PPF once.
Perhaps he isn't into acronyms or he avoids the topic as it is more of an installed product/not often sold by Autogeek or I failed to properly execute a simple search or some other reason... but it appears the PPF is not something in Mike's world. 35k+ posts. Never mentioned it once (unless I failed in my search).
b. Mike's book "The Complete Guide to Show Car Shine" doesn't address Paint Protection Film
I don't own the book (yet) and I have not seen a complete table of contents; however, Autogeek's description of the book does not mention PPF.
Mike Phillips’ The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine Paperback Book
c. No "Competition Ready" PPF love
I understand that this is a reality TV show (that seems to constantly operate under a minimal time frame) and the show may only be about trailer queens that never have to worry about rock chips; however, no PPF found here either.
Episodes & Schedule - Competition Ready

It seems that the guru of “show car shine” always uses wax and that (one of the premiere) manufacturers of PPF (Xpel) advises against the use of wax on their product (unless you know the wax ingredients and you don’t).

So Mike… are my assumptions right? (Ok, not the one about you knowing a lot about show car shine. The one about you not being into PPF)
 
The below is my post from my thread question I started not long ago....
Re: To Have Xpel Applied or Not?
FOLLOW UP

I had the car done last Thur.-Sat. and picked up on Sat. @ noon.
Very happy with his work. The film is smooth as glass and you can't tell it's there.
I had the full hood, bumper, mirrors and headlights done. Didn't want the partial fenders as I didn't want to see the line. He cut around the license plate bracket, and we had discussed this. This was done because the Lincoln bracket is riveted on, and we didn't want to chance drilling it off and putting it back and it rattling. And no way to really bolt it back on without removing the front bumper. Unnecessary, in my opinion. Still, the film is close enough to the bracket, and doesn't bother me.
He sealed the film with CarPro reload, and taught me how and when to apply, and gave me a 3.38 ounce spray bottle of the Reload. Also gave me a new empty 16.9 ounce CarPro Echo2 bottle, and a 1.7 oz. bottle of the Echo2 for quick detailing or waterless washing. Will be buying more, as I like it.

All in all I'm very happy with my decision to do this, and want to thank everyone for their responses to my concerns.

A lot of forum members really helped with their advice.
I don't have much experience, but now this is under my belt so to speak, and am happy to be able to offer a little help. Especially after just doing this and having the same concerns as you.

I will tell you that my installer recommended the CarPro sealant over Xpel's, after I had asked him about Xpel's sealant, actually. And that's what he put on. The guy knows his stuff, so there's another bit of information for you.
 
FUNX650 said:
You'd probably have to use one of the
"vinyl bras", that's specifically made
for your vehicle, to be "fully" protected.
(They actually provide more protection
from road debris than does PPF, IMO.)

They're removable for Car Shows
and maintenance.


Note:
Some of the "vinyl bras" will also provide
at least some partial hood protection
Bob
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob.
Is this the sort of product you are describing?
It seems they put it on for driving and take it off for car shows... and it is good enough for a $12 million Ferrari (or a car worth roughly $12 million more than my car).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pvavRaeBEA
 
h8dirtycars said:
All in all I'm very happy with my decision to do this, and want to thank everyone for their responses to my concerns.
Click to expand...

Glad you are happy with the result. That is really all that matters.

Regarding paint protection films and "show car shine".... it seems that:
1. the "gurus" avoid PPF (I don't believe either Mike Phillips or AMMO NYC or "others I follow" use it). It appears that AMMO NYC puts film (clear bra) on for daily driving and then takes it off for shows.
2. I am not sure why they avoid it. My guess is that show car shine requires wax and wax is not "generally" recommended by (at least some) PPF manufacturers.

What I would be really interested in knowing (assuming that "show car shine" requires wax and wax doesn't go with PPF)... how much objectively are you giving up in shine when you "trade down" from "show car shine"/wax to PPF? That is how many gloss units do you lose in shine in order to gain rock chip protection?

I am completely fine with trade offs/compromises. I don't know what the trade off is here.
 
Just my 2¢: the shop that installed XPel on my Mas in 2014, Modern Image in San Diego, is the go to place for Ferrari and Maserati around here. They're a specialty shop for wraps and PPF, and handle many high end vehicles. I've spoken to them many times, and they have my full trust. They recommend treating it like you would treat the car otherwise, with respect to wax and coating. They use Meguiar's Mirror Glaze compounds, polishes, and waxes, as well as the CarPro line, and so they recommend these.

The Mas always looks fantastic when it is "done", but of course it is white and by nature more forgiving than a dark car. I rarely notice the clearbra, except at the doorhandle wells.

It seems to me, one would want the same product across the entire vic, so that you achieve consistency in reflectivity/light diffraction properties. If I were the PPF manufacturer, I would certainly develop/offer a specific coating or sealant that I know works well with my product, as XPel has. That being said, you need to go with what you're comfortable with.
 
Last edited:
GeekGWCT said:
Regarding paint protection films and "show car shine".... it seems that:
1. the "gurus" avoid PPF (I don't believe either Mike Phillips or AMMO NYC or "others I follow" use it). It appears that AMMO NYC puts film (clear bra) on for daily driving and then takes it off for shows.
2. I am not sure why they avoid it. My guess is that show car shine requires wax and wax is not "generally" recommended by (at least some) PPF manufacturers.

What I would be really interested in knowing (assuming that "show car shine" requires wax and wax doesn't go with PPF)... how much objectively are you giving up in shine when you "trade down" from "show car shine"/wax to PPF? That is how many gloss units do you lose in shine in order to gain rock chip protection?

I am completely fine with trade offs/compromises. I don't know what the trade off is here.
Click to expand...
I beg to differ:
I have PPF and I really don't see
the "trade off" you're talking about

image1275.jpg


image1534.jpg



Bob
 
Bob, my bust... is the first image at time of application and the second shot with it applied (and looking amazing on your beautiful NOT white/grey/silver/black vehicle)?
 
FUNX650 said:
I beg to differ:
I have PPF and I really don't see
the "trade off" you're talking about
Bob
Click to expand...

First, wow. Beautiful car.
Second, as mentioned, I am making assumptions. It seems clear that Mike Phillips (and "others") aren't (at least generally and perhaps not at all) using PPF. Why? I don't know. (Not knocking Mike but) Mike may be contractually prohibited from promoting products not sold by Autogeek. However, I am assuming that there are reasons other than contractual that Mike (and "others") are not using PPF when trying to achieve "show car shine". As PPF has obvious benefits for protecting paint, I am assuming (but don't know) that there is some trade off that results in it not being used for show cars.
The use of PPF appears fairly common among the users of the Autogeek forums but (it appears) that Mike hasn't mentioned PPF (at least the acronym) once in over 35,000 posts on this forum. That isn't random.
 
GeekGWCT said:
....as mentioned, I am making assumptions.

The use of PPF appears fairly common among
the users of the Autogeek forums

but (it appears) that Mike hasn't mentioned
PPF (at least the acronym) once in over 35,000 posts

That isn't random.
Click to expand...
:confused:

Here's just one example where
Mr. Phillips mentions PPF:
_______________________________________

Re: Meguiar's products and the Clear Bra

"For the most part you wash the car as
normal and only use our paint care products
on the paint portion, not the clear bra portion.

We have a couple of plastic polishes you can
apply to the clear bra and lots of people apply
wax to these as well. We don't ever hear of any
horror stories or adverse effects to clear bras
as long as a quality product is used on it.

You can't of course use rubbing compounds and
things that are abrasive on thin, soft, flexible
plastic films as common sense tells you this will
scratch the plastic.


Here's the skinny...
A clear bra will protect the front of your car
from rock chips and thus protect the paint

A clear bra will get fine swirls and scratches
just like your paint only unlike your paint
you cannot really polish these out.

Danged if you do, danged if you don't."


Mike Phillips
Office: 800-869-3011 x206
[email protected]
_____________________________________________


Bob
 
GeekGWCT said:
I am completely fine with trade offs/compromises. I don't know what the trade off is here.
Click to expand...

I don't know how to measure a gloss unit, but mine is glossy enough for me, as well knowing that I'm protected against chips.

These pics aren't as good as FunX's but I think you can tell. Also you can compare to a dark silver vehicle. Don't know why they didn't insert in right direction.

View attachment 56231View attachment 56232View attachment 56233
 
FUNX650 said:
:confused:

Here's just one example where
Mr. Phillips mentions PPF:
_______________________________________

Re: Meguiar's products and the Clear Bra

"For the most part you wash the car as
normal and only use our paint care products
on the paint portion, not the clear bra portion.

We have a couple of plastic polishes you can
apply to the clear bra and lots of people apply
wax to these as well. We don't ever hear of any
horror stories or adverse effects to clear bras
as long as a quality product is used on it.

You can't of course use rubbing compounds and
things that are abrasive on thin, soft, flexible
plastic films as common sense tells you this will
scratch the plastic.


Here's the skinny...
A clear bra will protect the front of your car
from rock chips and thus protect the paint

A clear bra will get fine swirls and scratches
just like your paint only unlike your paint
you cannot really polish these out.

Danged if you do, danged if you don't."


Mike Phillips
Office: 800-869-3011 x206
[email protected]
_____________________________________________

Bob
Click to expand...

Thanks.
A few thoughts.
1. I was searching for the use of the acronym "PPF" (and frankly I am not certain the search function works properly or I am using it properly)
2. He is clearly discussing PPF in the post above but no where does he say he ever uses them at all... even on a daily driver/not when attempting to achieve "show car shine"
3. "lots of people apply wax to these as well." Lots of people take their car to a standard car wash (and it is fine as it works for them). He isn't saying HE is applying wax to PPF. No horror stories = good but a lack of a horror story never won any competition.
4. "only use our paint care products on the paint portion, not the clear bra portion." I am not certain what all he is defining as a paint care product but wax is generally included in this definition. If so, I believe Mike's answer is (well, may be):

a. Wax is needed for "show car shine"
b. I only use wax (aka paint care product) on the paint portion of a car and not the PPF portion
c. You can use wax on the PPF and not get a horror story (but not getting a horror story doesn't win you a show car competition).

I may be completely wrong but it seems pretty clear that Autogeek's detailing guru (and others) doesn't use PPF on show cars and doesn't believe "paint care products" (wax?) should be used on PPF.

If that is true, my question is why? Why no wax on PPF? Do you believe that the "self cleaning" (or other) properties mean that the wax won't stay on the PPF? Are you concerned the wax has kerosene or other ingredients that would be harmful to the PPF? Are you concerned that the wax (although not a horror story) would yellow the PPF? Would (for example) Brazilian Ivory Carnauba alleviate this concern?
 
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