FlyinLow
New member
- Feb 13, 2017
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Lol... had to google that one... there's my "something new" today. Thanks! And will put good mileage on that one in future, haha. -Jen
Show car shine vs paint protection film?
- Thread starter GeekGWCT
- Start date
Lol... had to google that one... there's my "something new" today. Thanks! And will put good mileage on that one in future, haha. -Jen
FUNX650
New member
- Dec 1, 2010
- 21,057
- 2
Except for gloss meter comparisons...
I believe all three questions were answered
in their entirety, by those that responded to
this thread.
•Perhaps those responders didn't meet
with your definition of "shine guru(s)":
-Is this the cause of your reluctance to
accept their responses at face value?
:idea:
•I'll make you a deal.
-You get the gloss meter metrics from
the OEMs' for their paint systems;
-and, I'll round up those of the PPF
manufacturers.
-Afterwards: Meet you somewhere
that's halfway between our abodes
to compare data points.
Bob
FlyinLow
New member
- Feb 13, 2017
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Making a car look good is an art. Yes, there is a science behind that art, in the tools used to create it.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No quality of music, nor quality of a work of art, can consistently and objectively be measured. What makes one's heart sing may not be what makes the next guy's (or gal's). Thus, the multitude of discussions on gloss factor. Good luck measuring it.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No quality of music, nor quality of a work of art, can consistently and objectively be measured. What makes one's heart sing may not be what makes the next guy's (or gal's). Thus, the multitude of discussions on gloss factor. Good luck measuring it.
- Thread starter
- #44
I think you are right. This forum is a niche market of a niche market (user of after market car products that chat about them in forums). In a forum about engines, I suspect that few discuss horsepower generically as being good enough for them. That market wants numbers and wants them to be higher... and we end up with a 700 hp Hellcat. In a forum seeking answers from the guru of shine, people don't seem to care about numbers. The market has spoken.
In terms of "something that has no need to be quantified", there are professionals that quantify exactly this for a living that might strongly disagree with you.
In terms of putting time into this, strongly agree with you. Wish it was easy as getting 40 times. However, I suspect that 99.99% of the population thinks everyone on this forum puts too much time into their cars. Perhaps I am in the 99.999% bucket.
- Thread starter
- #45
I think you hit the nail on the head.
On a related note.... If baseball games were decided primarily by opinions, there would be no quants in baseball. If car races were decided by opinions, metrics would be lacking.
In the "sport" of show car competitions, the winner is determined by opinion. There is nothing objective about it.
I am not interested in changing how show car competitions are judged or how baseball games are won. However, I do prefer objective data.
- Thread starter
- #46
A few thoughts...
1. No consensus. You suggested that there is no "trade off" with PPF in terms of shine. Others have suggested the opposite. There is no objective data and seemingly not much interest in objective data. With respect, I don't know who is right.
2. OEM paint systems. You mentioned OEM paint systems previously. My thoughts... I already bought my car. That decision has already been made. I am trying to make an informed after market decision.
3. With respect, it isn't random that I asked these questions on the "Ask Mike Phillips your detailing questions forum". If I wanted to know about fast college football players (and I didn't have a NFL combine to give me the objective answer), I would ask a highly respected football scout if I could. No insult intended but I posted on this forum as I wanted to ask Mike Phillips.
He may be busy, on vacation, etc. At the moment, I am just guessing what his answers would be... but I suspect that they might be...
Question 1: Yes
Question 2: Clear bra and Carnauba wax
Question 3: No
FlyinLow
New member
- Feb 13, 2017
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I like boxing. Great sport.
Mike Phillips
Active member
- Dec 5, 2022
- 51,004
- 7
After finding this thread from this thread,
“Be sure to drink your Ovaltine” by GeekGWCT
I feel compelled to chime in.... and my apologies to GeekGWCT for not seeing this thread and replying to it sooner...
In my opinion and what I've seen with my eyes, the gloss and shine provided by brand new paint protection film is pretty good. In fact, if you stand back about 5 feet and look at a well detailed car with brand new paint protection film applied to the front of the hood it can be difficult to see any difference between the portion with the film and the portion that's just paint.
Now when you get up closer, and inspect you can see the edge where the PPF ends and then if you really look you may be able to see that the paint has more gloss or wetness than the plastic film.
As time goes by, if the car in question is daily driver, then what I've seen is the PPF will tend to lose it's original gloss and shine and this is especially true if the car is NOT wash carefully. Now any really good detailer can buzz over the PPF with an ultra fine cut polish and an ultra fine foam finishing pad and restore the gloss and shine but not everyone that owns a car with PPF is also a knowledgeable detailer, fully equipped with all the best stuff so this is why not ever car with PPF on it always looks great.
For you - if you wash it carefully, (the entire car), and maintain a quality coat of wax on both the paint and the PPF I'm confident the "entire look" of the car will be impressive.
I think you can maintain a show car shine with a quality, brand name PPF on the car paint but you need to wash it, dry it and wipe it carefully. Somewhere on this forum I recently blathered on about "touching" car paint, maybe someone remembers that thread and will post a link to it here.
Like Bob aka FUNX650 stated, if you really want protection for the paint then get a traditional back vinyl bra. You can leave it on when driving the car and remove it if you want to put your car on display. This way you get the best of both worlds. Protection and beauty.
Like Bob aka FUNX650 posted, check into a traditional bra like this,
Here's the big picture, either use their recommended product, which is probably the safe bet. OR - stick with quality name brands and also stick with non-cleaning waxes. There's basically two types of waxes or sealants on the market and I have an article on this topic that I'll share below, but just to point out...
Non-Cleaning waxes, i.e. show car waxes, finishing waxes (or sealants) don't contain any chemical cleaners or abrasives or even strong or harsh solvents. They are for paint that is in new or excellent condition.
Cleaner/waxes (or cleaner/sealants), these product contain chemical cleaners and/or chemical cleaners and abrasives and are for restoring neglected paint in one step. Also called an AIO
I agree Bob. These traditional vinyl bras have some substance to them as it relates to thickness and provide great protection while at the same time can be easily removed and replaced by the owner.
It's not that I'm not into PPF, I answer questions about this topic on the fly all the time. Here's a recent example, the below was posted
03-24-2017, 09:11 AM
New ride came with PPF, care question
My answer is the 2nd post to the thread.
I don't have any emotions for or against PPF.
I'm not a PPF installer and I don't own it on any of my cars. I help people that do have it on their cars when they post questions about it here on the AGO forum as demonstrated by the link I posted above.
But since you've brought this topic up when I write the 3rd edition of my book, The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine. I'll be sure to include a section on PPF.
The book is actually incredibly in-depth, and it does cover hundreds of topics, there's no other book like it on the market. But, I didn't address PPF in the first and second editions for no other reason than either an oversight or at some point you stick a fork in it and call it done and then turn the copy over to an editor for assembly and design.
Hope that helps...
“Be sure to drink your Ovaltine” by GeekGWCT
I feel compelled to chime in.... and my apologies to GeekGWCT for not seeing this thread and replying to it sooner...
In my opinion and what I've seen with my eyes, the gloss and shine provided by brand new paint protection film is pretty good. In fact, if you stand back about 5 feet and look at a well detailed car with brand new paint protection film applied to the front of the hood it can be difficult to see any difference between the portion with the film and the portion that's just paint.
Now when you get up closer, and inspect you can see the edge where the PPF ends and then if you really look you may be able to see that the paint has more gloss or wetness than the plastic film.
As time goes by, if the car in question is daily driver, then what I've seen is the PPF will tend to lose it's original gloss and shine and this is especially true if the car is NOT wash carefully. Now any really good detailer can buzz over the PPF with an ultra fine cut polish and an ultra fine foam finishing pad and restore the gloss and shine but not everyone that owns a car with PPF is also a knowledgeable detailer, fully equipped with all the best stuff so this is why not ever car with PPF on it always looks great.
For you - if you wash it carefully, (the entire car), and maintain a quality coat of wax on both the paint and the PPF I'm confident the "entire look" of the car will be impressive.
I think you can maintain a show car shine with a quality, brand name PPF on the car paint but you need to wash it, dry it and wipe it carefully. Somewhere on this forum I recently blathered on about "touching" car paint, maybe someone remembers that thread and will post a link to it here.
Like Bob aka FUNX650 stated, if you really want protection for the paint then get a traditional back vinyl bra. You can leave it on when driving the car and remove it if you want to put your car on display. This way you get the best of both worlds. Protection and beauty.
Like Bob aka FUNX650 posted, check into a traditional bra like this,
Here's the big picture, either use their recommended product, which is probably the safe bet. OR - stick with quality name brands and also stick with non-cleaning waxes. There's basically two types of waxes or sealants on the market and I have an article on this topic that I'll share below, but just to point out...
Non-Cleaning waxes, i.e. show car waxes, finishing waxes (or sealants) don't contain any chemical cleaners or abrasives or even strong or harsh solvents. They are for paint that is in new or excellent condition.
Cleaner/waxes (or cleaner/sealants), these product contain chemical cleaners and/or chemical cleaners and abrasives and are for restoring neglected paint in one step. Also called an AIO
I agree Bob. These traditional vinyl bras have some substance to them as it relates to thickness and provide great protection while at the same time can be easily removed and replaced by the owner.
It's not that I'm not into PPF, I answer questions about this topic on the fly all the time. Here's a recent example, the below was posted
03-24-2017, 09:11 AM
New ride came with PPF, care question
My answer is the 2nd post to the thread.
I don't have any emotions for or against PPF.
I'm not a PPF installer and I don't own it on any of my cars. I help people that do have it on their cars when they post questions about it here on the AGO forum as demonstrated by the link I posted above.
But since you've brought this topic up when I write the 3rd edition of my book, The Complete Guide to a Show Car Shine. I'll be sure to include a section on PPF.
The book is actually incredibly in-depth, and it does cover hundreds of topics, there's no other book like it on the market. But, I didn't address PPF in the first and second editions for no other reason than either an oversight or at some point you stick a fork in it and call it done and then turn the copy over to an editor for assembly and design.
Hope that helps...
Mike Phillips
Active member
- Dec 5, 2022
- 51,004
- 7
And just to chime in on the topic of gloss and gloss meters....
I don't own and Autogeek doesn't own (at least yet) a gloss meter.
That said, I don't need a gloss meter to tell me if paint is glossy. I also agree with what the head chemist at Meguiar's once told me before they sold or got rid of their gloss meter and that is,
"A gloss meter cannot detect the full spectrum of gloss, shine, depth and clarity that the human eye is capable of detecting"
That's a paraphrase but after hearing their reasoning I too was convinced that a gloss meter, while a cool gadget and we all know boys like their toys, I simply don't need it to tell me that paint is either glossy or not glossy.
When trying to create gloss there's a limited number of things you can do but the most important thing is the first thing and that's creating a smooth surface. Here's my article on that and I think the picture tells a thousands words as it screams gloss.
Gloss starts first with a smooth surface...
This is the definition of a high gloss finish!
Remember, gloss comes from a smooth surface
One of the most important things you can do to create a high gloss finish is to inspect for above surface bonded contaminants and if discovered remove them using detailing clay or some other mechanical means of decontamination.
I don't own and Autogeek doesn't own (at least yet) a gloss meter.
That said, I don't need a gloss meter to tell me if paint is glossy. I also agree with what the head chemist at Meguiar's once told me before they sold or got rid of their gloss meter and that is,
"A gloss meter cannot detect the full spectrum of gloss, shine, depth and clarity that the human eye is capable of detecting"
That's a paraphrase but after hearing their reasoning I too was convinced that a gloss meter, while a cool gadget and we all know boys like their toys, I simply don't need it to tell me that paint is either glossy or not glossy.
When trying to create gloss there's a limited number of things you can do but the most important thing is the first thing and that's creating a smooth surface. Here's my article on that and I think the picture tells a thousands words as it screams gloss.
Gloss starts first with a smooth surface...
This is the definition of a high gloss finish!
Remember, gloss comes from a smooth surface
One of the most important things you can do to create a high gloss finish is to inspect for above surface bonded contaminants and if discovered remove them using detailing clay or some other mechanical means of decontamination.
Mike Phillips
Active member
- Dec 5, 2022
- 51,004
- 7
Mike Phillips
Active member
- Dec 5, 2022
- 51,004
- 7
crystalclearsolution
New member
- May 13, 2017
- 1
- 0
I am an XPEL certified installer and have recently completed factory training at their headquarters in San Antonio. We touched on this subject and I had the same questions.
There are three things that are not warrantable on XPEL PPF; dye, kerosene, and naptha. Wax will not void the warranty but certain brands of wax will increase the yellowing process of the film. Urethane film is porous, just like the paint on your car. Wax will fill those pores and actually increase the rate of oxidation of the clear urethane film. Some of the waxes are more aggressive in this process than others. Although I don't know the specific active ingredient(s) that cause the color shift I can tell you there is a big difference in products. I have a list of the color shift produced in lab testing of most major waxes and there are a few that are far worse than the rest and a few that are relatively harmless.
You must keep in mind that PPF is a temporary product (5-10 years). It's objective is to stand between the debris on the road and the paint on your car. All film will eventually pit and discolor but unlike your paint it can be easily removed and a new kit installed. If you adhere to a few basic guidelines the film will look its best while on your vehicle.
Sent from my iPhone using Autogeekonline mobile app
Long Beach James
New member
- Aug 22, 2013
- 3
- 0
I like your article. Many threads recommend CarPro Reload over Xpel Ultimate but the product has both Stoddard solvent ( kerosene) and Naptha. I have been told the Naptha concentration is less than 5% which makes it OK to use on Xpel. With the amount of the Xpel investment on my 2018 Long Beach Red Corvette, I do not want to guess. Are sealants in the same category for color shift problems as waxes? Common sense would tell me to simply lay off any wax or sealant over the Xpel but then I have the rest of the unprotected car to work with. GM says do not use a sealant over their paint for what that is worth. They say wax is OK but no sealant. I have not heard back yet from GM on that owners manual comment.
Being a professional and factory trained, your color shift research would be great information to digest.
Thank you,
James
Being a professional and factory trained, your color shift research would be great information to digest.
Thank you,
James