Soaps used in excess can degrade lsp??

[MrOneEyedBoh]

So I thought that if I used a pH balanced soap like DG902, it wouldn't harm the lsp? I'm talking about using it say at a stronger concentration than what the bottle says. I sometimes do this to make sure I get good lubricity, and to waste money lol

 

[VISITOR]

citrus based soaps (or just about anyone for that matter) like cg's cw&g seem to be a little harsh on lsp's even at maintenance wash ratio. never really had that problem even at a little higher ratio with dg901/2, hyper wash, 3d pink car soap, optimum, etc,...

 

[ski2]

If you take a quick read through this thread you'll see that it's pretty difficult if not impossible to remove a good LSP with any kind of soap. I've done my own testing with some very strong mixes of citrus based soaps and they don't even begin to remove a sealant based LSP. So I doubt a strong mix of 902 will have any detrimental effect on your LSP.

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/66896-lsp-stripping.html

 

[FUNX650]

Depending on which category they fall within...
LSPs, themselves, will have varying levels of
strengths to assist in warding-off the degrading
affects often attributed to varying dilution ratios
of car-wash shampoos.

In this respect:
-Sealants are considered stronger than Waxes.
-Coatings are considered stronger than Sealants.

-And: "AJAX is stronger than dirt!"
(OOOPS! Got carried away to another time.)


Note:
Don't forget about what Mike Phillips says
about what can happen each time you
"touch your vehicle".



Bob

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I'd say micro-abrasion is a greater factor than the soap being used but both are factors.

Micro-abrasion is when you move the wash media over the surface .


Put things in extremes...

Does rubbing a wash mitt over a waxed surface add more wax to the surface?

The answer is "no". Now put things in extremes. What is the opposite of the word add?


Also, on this forum and in my how-to book and on our Roku Channel I share the two methods of washing a car.

1. The aggressive method
2. The gentle method

If you're trying to preserve a coating of wax you should be using the gentle method and NOT scrubbing your paint when you rub a wash mitt over it.

 

[hogie]

It seems like the chemical guys snow foam I use kills Meg's ultimate liquid wax pretty quick if I use it heavily. I can't remember the name, but it isn't mister pink

 

[zmcgovern45]

I've always thought that relying on lack of beading to confirm the stripping an LSP with a shampoo to be somewhat of a guess at best... here are my thoughts...

Shampoos often contain surfactants...

sur·fac·tant
sərˈfaktənt
noun

a substance that tends to reduce the surface tension of a liquid in which it is dissolved.​

... therefore a heavy concentration of shampoo will certainly lower the surface tension to the point where beading and sheeting is diminished, but how can you really tell an LSP has been removed? As far as I know, there is no way to tell (aside from lab testing, of course).

This is the root of the discussion "does beading indicate surface protection"... to which the answer is most certainly no. Water beading only indicates high surface tension, but does not directly reflect upon protective properties of a substance applied on top of the paint.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

This is the root of the discussion "does beading indicate surface protection"... to which the answer is most certainly no.

Water beading only indicates high surface tension, but does not directly reflect upon protective properties of a substance applied on top of the paint.

Exactly. You can apply ordinary table margarine onto your cars paint and it will bead water very well but it won't last and I doubt it will protect.

Doing a quick search on MOL using the terms surface tension here's something I wrote in 2006, just about 10 years ago that still makes sense today.

Water beading is sign of surface tension and with time and washing as well as exposure to the elements surface tension diminishes and water beading falls off. This happens to all waxes and is not an accurate indicator of wax left on the surface or protection left on the surface.

Instead of using water beading as an indicator, think of waxing your car like you do changing your oil.

Most people change their oil every 3000 miles for preventative maintenance for the internal components of the engine to insure the engine lasts a long time.

Most people understand that if they don't get to the oil change till 3300 miles or even 4000 miles the engine isn't going to fall apart or seize-up; the 3000 mile mark is just a measure or mark as an insurance policy, thus the term preventative maintenance.

Maintaining your car's finish, if it's a daily driver is kind of the same thing, you don't want to wait till the clear coat is flaking off to clean, polish and wax. A better idea is to wash and wax periodically, with claying, cleaning and polishing as needed or wanted.

This is why Barry Meguiar's has always been a proponent for teaching people about putting their car on a regular maintenance program. By doing this, your car always looks good and you can rest assured the finish is always protected.

That said...

If a wax/sealant/coating doesn't bead water it's always going to be perceived that the product doesn't protect and/or protect for a long time.

Plus... everyone thinks water beading on a car's paint looks cool! (including me)

:laughing:

 

[zmcgovern45]

Great analogy with the oil change! I'll certainly refer to that with potential customers.

 

[MrOneEyedBoh]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the input

 

[Ricorocks]

Perhaps my logic here, can be improved:

All soaps are "alkaline" pH greater than >7, so to pH balance a soap, acid is added, to achieve the desired, more netural (7.0) pH.

RO & DI water are very acidic, so using this water to wash in conjunction with a soap; pH balanced, or more acidic soap (citrus), diminishes "LSP" quicker than, tap or soft water.

I currently use CG's citrus w/g at 1oz/1gal for stripping process. I believe this effectively removes LSP

 

[silverfox]

I used DG 105 on my car two winters ago and took it through at 15 commercial touchless washes and those soaps never even phased the DG105. The LSP would have to be garbage for that to happen

 

[PiPUK]

Shampoos often contain surfactants...

The truth is much more significant - a text book definition of a shampoo would be a blend of surfactants. Without surfactants, they won't be shampoos. Shampoos will range from 10-30% surfactant, with limited amounts of anything else. Snowfoams or alkaline products will generally be something different but still have high surfactant levels. Basically, if it foams, it has surfactants in it.

... therefore a heavy concentration of shampoo will certainly lower the surface tension to the point where beading and sheeting is diminished, but how can you really tell an LSP has been removed? As far as I know, there is no way to tell (aside from lab testing, of course).

This is the root of the discussion "does beading indicate surface protection"... to which the answer is most certainly no. Water beading only indicates high surface tension, but does not directly reflect upon protective properties of a substance applied on top of the paint.

This area is poorly appreciated in non-chemical circles. For a cleaner to wet the surface, which is absolutely basic number 1 in water based cleaning theory, you need to overcome the surface tension. If a product fails to do this and does not form a sheet when sprayed or spread on the surface, you don't have enough of or the right surfactant blend. What the user will be doing is using mechanical force to remove dirt which should have been loosened by chemical/surfactant means. This would be my number one 'fail' - so many detailers who trust in brand marketing end up abrading their paint when they really need not!

Anyhow, another important thing is that these surfactants do not bond at all strongly. The idea is that most should not bond at all and should not leave a residue. Unfortunately, many do and this is actually the root of many people believing that surfactant products will 'strip' - they don't, they just leave a residue which, temporarily, removes the beading. The surfactants can do some removal of the LSP which will typically look a lot like an oil so the surfactants will 'try' to remove them. Of course LSPs look like oils but are typically stuck more strongly than the surfactants can 'pull' so removal is minor.

Perhaps my logic here, can be improved:

All soaps are "alkaline" pH greater than >7, so to pH balance a soap, acid is added, to achieve the desired, more netural (7.0) pH.

RO & DI water are very acidic, so using this water to wash in conjunction with a soap; pH balanced, or more acidic soap (citrus), diminishes "LSP" quicker than, tap or soft water.

I currently use CG's citrus w/g at 1oz/1gal for stripping process. I believe this effectively removes LSP

We may be having the usual soap/shampoo cross purpose discussion. A shampoo will typically be neutral, not alkaline because it needs to be safe for skin contact over prolonged periods. Soap is an old old old term which refers to what you get when you mix animal fats and lye (or similar). Nobody uses soap for auto purposes now. There are alkaline type products out there, but they will be mechanical or machine application.

Take care with your links between RO/DI water and acidity, it will be mild acidity. What you are alluding to is that it can be mildly corrosive, but this is not really down to the acidity. More importantly, people will dilute products with tap water so the amount of DI/RO will be practically zero. Also, citrus based products have nothing to do with acidity. Citric acid is acidic, citrus cleaners are based on d-limonene which is a solvent found in orange peel. This solvent simply has no pH, it is neither acidic or alkaline and, even when in a formulated product, it has no significant contribution to the pH. Any harm caused to an LSP will be due to the fact that you have a solvent, comparable in potency to xylene and stronger than white spirits, working on it. Incidentally, CG citrus W&G would be one of the first products I would point out to that will leave surfactant residues. The 'gloss' bit of the name is a give away. I have never succeeded in stripping an LSP with it, I have repeatedly seen beading miraculously return at a later point.

 

[ski2]

I currently use CG's citrus w/g at 1oz/1gal for stripping process. I believe this effectively removes LSP

Had 6 month old DG105/601 and used Chemical Guys Citrus Wash Red (not W & G) at the stripping dilution to wash my car this past spring as part of a full detail. This time I tried a little experiment--used 1 oz of the Red per gallon and added 1 oz per gallon of 3D Orange Degreaser to the mix. Let it dwell for a good 4-5 minutes making sure it didn't dry by adding more solution to the paint.

Rinsed it off and there was absolutely no beading--gave it a wipe down with a 10% IPA solution and all the beading returned. So the DG105 was still there.

I think the only way to strip off sealants is with a light polishing.

 

[Ricorocks]

Hi PiPUK Thanks for your insight. If it's pH balanced then either a base or acid was added to achieve the desired goal. Yes soap/shampoo may be "cross purpose discussion", If i remember correctly the properties of soap are:

alkaline
forms bubbles
slippery

the bubble test (soap) was long used as a determination of hard water.

Also pH can vary from 7.0 & not be harmful to skin.

As a water tester, in industry I've tested both RO & DI water both are definitely acidic. I've never seen re-mixing into RO or DI water, ordinary tap water, as this would defeat, the goal of ultra pure water for process. Perhaps detailing is different, but it definitely adds back, to what you cleaned. RO & DI water is known as "aggressive water", not because of it's acidity, but due due to the lack of impurities & natures desire to seek equilibrium. Osmosis. RO & DI water are normally plumbed via PVC, so as to avoid leaks, using copper or galvanized pipe, RO & DI, will result in leaks, as equilibrium would strip copper, or galvanized or black pipe, which would end up in the DI or RO water, again defeating the goal of ultra pure water. Granted the water in pipes is moving at some flow & psi. which would accelerate, the stripping of metal from pipe. But I'm not sure, that LSP's act like PVC in that they are inert, to the aggressive water.

So, RO & DI water being aggressive (low TDS, seeking equilibrium) + being acidic, has no effect on LSP's? <asking for enlightenment>

CG's Citrus W/G is touted as a stripper, used 1oz/1gal. What do you recommend for the stripping phase, at the car washing stage?

How about "clay" stage is this enough of a stripper that makes the washing phase "for stripping" not necessary.

Can Isopropyl alcohol, say 70% label, be used for stripping? What dilution?

ski2 - Not clear from your post. CG's red, you did not feel this stripped well, by itself?

You then used "Red" + 3d orange degreaser. Is 3d orange a product here?

Finally you mention 10% IPA, did you start with (label) 70 or 90% IPA, then dilute with water, to achieve a 10 to 1....Example

for 1 gallon 10 to 1 IPA solution

11.6 oz ipa + 116.4 oz water

what strength was the IPA originally?

Thanks Guys!!!!

 

[ski2]

Can Isopropyl alcohol, say 70% label, be used for stripping? What dilution?

ski2 - Not clear from your post. CG's red, you did not feel this stripped well, by itself?

You then used "Red" + 3d orange degreaser. Is 3d orange a product here?

Finally you mention 10% IPA, did you start with (label) 70 or 90% IPA, then dilute with water, to achieve a 10 to 1....Example

for 1 gallon 10 to 1 IPA solution

11.6 oz ipa + 116.4 oz water

what strength was the IPA originally?

Thanks Guys!!!!

If you read through this thread it basically covers all of the possibilities regarding stripping of LSPs---http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-101/66896-lsp-stripping.html

The CG Red is their original "LSP Stripper" that is citrus based and has no gloss enhancers. I add the 3D Orange Degreaser just to boost the stripping power--3D Orange 88 Citrus Degreaser 128 oz.

They appear to have stripped the LSP because there was no beading. I just used the very weak IPA solution to see if it would change anything. Basically it removed the surfactants left on the surface by the Citrus wash that made it look like the beading was gone.

If you read through the thread it addresses all the ways we have been using to strip LSPs over the years and for the most part indicates they don't work at removing a quality LSPs.

 

[conman1395]

So I thought that if I used a pH balanced soap like DG902, it wouldn't harm the lsp? I'm talking about using it say at a stronger concentration than what the bottle says. I sometimes do this to make sure I get good lubricity, and to waste money lol

It's already been said by Duragloss that it isn't meant to strip at any dilution - recommended or not.

I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[PiPUK]

Hi PiPUK Thanks for your insight. If it's pH balanced then either a base or acid was added to achieve the desired goal. Yes soap/shampoo may be "cross purpose discussion", If i remember correctly the properties of soap are:

alkaline
forms bubbles
slippery

the bubble test (soap) was long used as a determination of hard water.

Also pH can vary from 7.0 & not be harmful to skin.

As a water tester, in industry I've tested both RO & DI water both are definitely acidic. I've never seen re-mixing into RO or DI water, ordinary tap water, as this would defeat, the goal of ultra pure water for process. Perhaps detailing is different, but it definitely adds back, to what you cleaned. RO & DI water is known as "aggressive water", not because of it's acidity, but due due to the lack of impurities & natures desire to seek equilibrium. Osmosis. RO & DI water are normally plumbed via PVC, so as to avoid leaks, using copper or galvanized pipe, RO & DI, will result in leaks, as equilibrium would strip copper, or galvanized or black pipe, which would end up in the DI or RO water, again defeating the goal of ultra pure water. Granted the water in pipes is moving at some flow & psi. which would accelerate, the stripping of metal from pipe. But I'm not sure, that LSP's act like PVC in that they are inert, to the aggressive water.

So, RO & DI water being aggressive (low TDS, seeking equilibrium) + being acidic, has no effect on LSP's? <asking for enlightenment>

CG's Citrus W/G is touted as a stripper, used 1oz/1gal. What do you recommend for the stripping phase, at the car washing stage?

How about "clay" stage is this enough of a stripper that makes the washing phase "for stripping" not necessary.

Can Isopropyl alcohol, say 70% label, be used for stripping? What dilution?

ski2 - Not clear from your post. CG's red, you did not feel this stripped well, by itself?

You then used "Red" + 3d orange degreaser. Is 3d orange a product here?

Finally you mention 10% IPA, did you start with (label) 70 or 90% IPA, then dilute with water, to achieve a 10 to 1....Example

for 1 gallon 10 to 1 IPA solution

11.6 oz ipa + 116.4 oz water

what strength was the IPA originally?

Thanks Guys!!!!

Certainly the purified water which we use will only be minimally acidic, nothing of consequence. The more important feature is the low dissolved solids which you rightly point out will mean that the water will be more corrosive than tap water (a feature few people ever think about). This is, of course, the reason why we tend to use softened water more than RO water (the latter being a bugger for destroying transfer systems!). In any case, these features should be of minor importance to an LSP. The mild acidity should not do much to degrade these stable films and the 'aggressive' nature is pertinent to metals, not the LSP which is fundamentally insoluble in water (which is a further reason that acids are of minor importance - nothing to reduce surface tension and 'wet' the surface). Alkalinity is a much much bigger risk - alkalinity will often cause the formation of soap like products (actual soap this time!) which reduce surface tension and make it easier to attack the film. Compared to the acidity from your RO water, alkaline products will be thousands or millions of times more potent (based on pH considerations - alkaline products will frequently be pH 13 and higher).

Stripping - if your LSP is good, I wouldn't bother trying to strip with a water based product. In my experience, none of them work. Your only real hope would be with a very strongly alkaline product but you would need to apply at levels which would be dangerous for the paint - if you wanted to be certain that it worked. IPA is also not much good for stripping, it is the wrong kind of solvent. It is great for removing light oils, but LSPs are simply not soluble in IPA, at least not once cured. Even waxes are not really soluble in IPA - you can do a test and put some wax into IPA. Even if you boil it, you won't dissolve that wax! Panel wipe, which is going to be non-polar solvents, will be much more likely to remove an LSP, likewise tar removers (which should be non-polar solvents with surfactants). In my experience, this is still not guaranteed. I have numerous LSPs which will not strip with these methods (certainly not with a single application). If I want to strip (which I often do, such that i can test something new), I use an abrasive polish. As far as I am concerned, nothing else is guaranteed.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Oh gosh... let me chime in here... this is fun....

Stripping - if your LSP is good, I wouldn't bother trying to strip with a water based product. In my experience, none of them work.

Thanks for stating that, being a chemist this should carry some weight.

Your only real hope would be with a very strongly alkaline product but you would need to apply at levels which would be dangerous for the paint - if you wanted to be certain that it worked.

And dangerous to the paint considering how thin it is to start with and how easy it scratches is really not the direction or type of process that an avid car detailing fan would choose to use.

IPA is also not much good for stripping, [waxes and sealants] it is the wrong kind of solvent.

Note in the above quote I added the words [waxes and sealants]

It is great for removing light oils, but LSPs are simply not soluble in IPA, at least not once cured.

Even waxes are not really soluble in IPA - you can do a test and put some wax into IPA. Even if you boil it, you won't dissolve that wax!

Please nobody blow themselves up or burn their houses down just to prove a point.

Panel wipe, which is going to be non-polar solvents, will be much more likely to remove an LSP, likewise tar removers (which should be non-polar solvents with surfactants).

Would odorless Mineral Spirits be a replacement for or even an example of Panel Wipe?

In my experience, this is still not guaranteed. I have numerous LSPs which will not strip with these methods (certainly not with a single application).

And I think this is a testimony to how the quality of available car waxes and synthetic paint sealants have improved over time with ever increasing technology.




And drum roll please.....

If I want to strip (which I often do, such that i can test something new), I use an abrasive polish.

As far as I am concerned, nothing else is guaranteed.

Ding ding ding! Give the man a prize!


I feel so vindicated. This is what I do and this is what I've been telling people to do since I started posting to the Interweb.

First - Like stated above this is the only way you can know for sure that you've removed every scintilla of previously applied wax or sealant.

Second - Trying to remove previously applied waxes and sealants via some form of chemical stripping be it through a harsh washing process or some type of solvent wiping is what I call working backwards. The process is making the paint look ugly.

Isn't the goal of everything we all do and everything we're all about to create beauty?

If that's the case then you should always be working forward in the process not backwards. That is every step you do to the paint should be making the paint look better and better, not worse and worse.

Sure it's faster to wash or wipe a car down than it is to machine polish it but if you're going to machine polish it anyways there's no downside, only an upside. That is by polishing (or compounding), you remove all the old stuff and get down to a fresh base of paint. And if you're using compounds and polishes that use great abrasive technology the paint is going to look marvelous! You're working forward in the process.


I feel like I just took a breath of fresh mountain air typing out the above.


I know it's easy for all of us to do including myself, but try not to take things that are in reality very simple and turn them into rocket science.


I love the picture at the top of this article...

How to turn waxing your car into Rocket Science




:xyxthumbs:

 

[zmcgovern45]

I love when these threads turn into technical discussions keep up the good conversation!