Strange OptiCoat happening

[BobbyG]

Many of today's products require a complete and thorough cleaning for them to adhere properly to the finish and I think that's what's happening here. I say thing with a bit of hesitation because I'm trying to draw my conclusion based on these writings.

I like many here have experienced the exact same outcome from many products leaving me only to stand and scratch my head at what went wrong. There are so many variables and the finish needs to be one of them.

I have a 2003 Toyota Camry SLE and have more than my share of protective coating durability issues. I've seen sealants like Ultima Paint Guard Plus last a mere 10 days then stop beading completely... What is it about the clear coat on this Toyota mystifies me but the only way to ensure that the finish is clean enough for sealants to bond is using a product like Klean Strip Prep-All...

That said, I've just completed a test using CarPro Eraser on the Toyota and have to complete the writeup.. I did like the way the finish felt after using it and CarPro Eraser could possibly be the "solution" to the problem...

 

[Buckskincolt]

I use carpro eraser and have had no issues. I do at times use mineral spirits too, again no issues. They both feel much better when wiping down paint over IPA. I do use IPA as well because I get a lot of tree sapp and the IPA works better for that. You do get a drag when using IPA.

I have to point out to the OP, Wolfgang finishing Glaze, has no filling glaze in it. It's also a water based polish so there are no "oils". I'm sure there are chemicals used to clean and lubricate the surface as you polish but can't imagine the WG is any worse than Menzerna or Meguires for leaving behind product on the paint.

 

[mwoolfso]

Tomorrow I will do a waterless wash (car is already pretty clean), then "strip" it with Prep Al or mineral spirits. Maybe both. Then, I will spray it with hose water to see if there is any beading or sheeting.

The moment you put untreated water on the vehicle you have eliminated the benefits of the Prep-all/Mineral spirits. Granted you would be at 99% rather than 100% prepped and ready but still... something to think about.

 

[swanicyouth]

Today I went out searching for something to remove any spray wax on the original vehicle to check to see if any evidence of OptiCoat was left below. The product I ended up getting was Rustoleum Wax and Tar Remover. This product states its designed to remove wax, tar, grease and road film.

I decided to use this because it's designed exactly for the task at hand (removal of spray wax) and it says it's safe for auto paint. So, it shouldn't strip OptiCoat right? This turned out to be a great product. Its not solvent like, but kind of soap like. It has a faint soap smell, and I had no problem using it without gloves.

First, I rinsed the truck down with a pressure washer. Then I dried it with an air sprayer. Then, I did a waterless wash using Opti Clean. I did all this at the local DIY car wash, as the sun is hot and I can work under shelter there.

After that, I proceeded to wipe the truck down 3 times over with the wax remover. I did not remove the spray wax from the glass or the sun roof with the wax remover. I left it on there purposely as a comparison surface. Each of the 3 times I used different and multiple towels to apply and remove the wax remover. This worked great and removed any wax that was topping the "coating" for sure. You could tell by feel before and after the topper wax was removed. Surface was "squeaky" clean. This took about 2 hours. Finally I knew I had a vehicle that had one of two things on the paint:

1. Opti Coat

2. nothing(or close to it)

Then I resprayed the vehicle down with water to check for any signs of beading or sheeting. The OC was applied about 5.5 months ago. Prior to applying it, I polished the vehicle with the Wolfgang twins and did a thorough IPA 20% wipe down multiple times after the polishing. I used 8cc of OC for the whole external vehichle, minus glass and wheels. I applied the OC with a piece of the supplied yellow foam applicator. After OC application, the vehicle was not washed for a week to ten days.

Here are the results when I stripped the surface with wax remover and checked for any sign of OC left on the paint (keep in mind all glass has Optimum Spray Wax on it, but was never OptiCoated):

To me there was no sign of sheeting or beading to say *any* OptiCoat was left on any surface at all. My Opticoat went up in Opti-smoke.

About 70 hours prior, when I first noticed there may be an issue, I decided to strip the hood only. I stripped it completely with Sonus APC and Griot's Paint Prep. At this time, the rest of the vehicle was covered with spray wax, and I was hoping this issue was only limited to the hood.

At that time, I had about 1.5 cc of Opticoat left in the original syringe. So, after stripping all the spray wax of the hood, I again did an IPA wipe down. This time. I wiped it down with 20% about 10 times using different towels. After that, I wiped it down twice with 91% IPA. I then wiped down that with DI water.

At that point there was nothing left on the surface. Wolfgang Finishing Glaze was not in the equation this time. I then applied the 1.5ccs of OptiCoat I had left to the stripped hood using a fresh 1/4 of the supplied yellow foam applicator that comes in the OC kit. 1.5ccs was just enough to coat the hood.

It "cured" untouched for about 70 hours. Nothing was applied to it after. I know OC was on the surface, as when I initially rinsed the truck, the hood beaded like crazy.

Here is a pic of that:

I then applied one wipe of the Rustoleum wax and grease remover to the right side quarter of the 70 hour ago OptiCoated hood. To my surprise, the hood beaded and sheeted well, all except that quarter! It seemed as the wax remover killed the OptiCoat!

Here are a few pics showing that. Notice there is a clear demarcation where the beading stops, and water just lays on the surface ( right side of hood / picture ). Also, keep in mind this is the SECOND time this surface was OptiCoated in 5 months:

This was after the OptiCoat "cured" at least 70 hours on the surface. It seemed to be easily removed by wax and grease remover. I thought this stuff was much tougher than that. I thought OC was as permanent as clear coat. I believe Optimum says you can wash the car a day or so after OptiCoat application without affecting it.

This wax and grease remover did not seem like a strong solvent, more like a soap or a paint prep. Actually, it says it's safe to apply on a base coat prior to applying top coats. So, to me that would mean its not strong enough to remove recently sprayed paint.

I did a littler more research on this wax remover product from Rustoleum and found out its little more than soapy water with some ethanol derivative in it. From the MSDS of Rustoleum Wax and Tar Remover:

The following materials are non-hazardous, but are among the top five components in this product.
Chemical Name

Water
Ethanol 2,2 iminobis-N[3-branched decyloxy)propyl] derivs.N-oxides

Pennsylvania Right-to-Know:

CAS Number

7732-18-5 68478-65-9

The following non-hazardous ingredients are present in the product at greater than 3%.

Chemical Name CAS Number

Water 7732-18-5

I also found out that “Ethanol 2,2 iminobis-N[3-branched decyloxy)propyl] derivs.N-oxides”, with a CAS number 68478-65-9 is used in many cleaners, and is described as an “amphoteric surfactant”. So, yes, it’s basically Rustoleum soapy water.
.... And this took off Opti Coat???? Two coats 5 months apart???

So now I don't know what to do. I have a paid for syringe of OptiCoat and a liter of Erasor arriving Monday. I no longer have a lot of confidence in the product, in the sense that its as long lasting for me as its designed to be. Prepping the whole vehicle and reapplying it is a whole lot of work, no to mention the cost of having to re-purchase the product. I could have got this length of protection out of a regular sealant and or wax.

Even if the OC is still on the surface, I can see its not sheeting or beading water, so I'm not sure what the point of it would be. Maybe you could say the failure of my first application 5 months ago was my fault, as the IPA 20% did not clean off any polish residue. But, I know for a fact 70 hours ago when I re-coated the hood there was nothing on it. At that point, I cleaned the hood with APC, Griots Paint Prep, and did no less than 12 IPA wipe downs, with the last two being at 91%..... And it seems to be once again gone!

A few questions:

1. At this point, I'm thinking of just giving up on OC, as I have little faith in it. Has anyone had a situation where they asked AG to return an unopened item. As I have a syringe in shipment that I'm not that interested in using at this point. Maybe I could trade it on the sample thread for something good.

2. Has anyone else had this happen? I mean, most of us are probably using spray waxes or similar as drying aids on Opti Coated vehicles. These products will usually bead at least until the next wash. I was re-applying them after every wash, assuming the OC was still safely on the surface. Has anyone "stripped" the spray wax off their vehicle only to find no evidence of Opti Coat left?

Any feedback is welcome!

 

[Old Tiger]

Are mineral spirits safe on paint undulated? Can i use them to strip spray wax off Opticoat to see if the OC is on fact still on the surface. What I mean is, if I wipe an Opticoated panel down with mineral spirits, if the panel is indeed coated, will it still bead?

I think you have nailed the issue if the OC is indeed gone. I use only Optimum polishes and havent had any problems on over a dozen clients!

 

[swanicyouth]

Im really frustrated with this. Upon reading current posts, it seems as though I'm not the only one to have their OptiCoat vanish. Some, have had it happen on multiple vehicles. The only explanation is "surface wasn't prepped right". I always thought OptiCoat stuck forever once it was applied. G|Technique is looking very interesting now.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

This is interesting, I've only used Opti-Coat on headlights, but I sprayed them down with OPC and rubbed it in with a wash pad, then rinsed to make sure there was no beading...when you do an IPA wipe like you did originally, you don't get to see beading/not.

They say Opti-Coat is like a layer of paint, and we all know that when you paint your surface has to be clean. That being said, sorry it didn't work out for you, but thanks for sharing this with the forum, I'm sure this will help other members, either to prep better for OC, or to use a different product.

 

[Old Tiger]

I am at a loss for an explanation! I have customers with 14 mos of Opti-Guard. From what I understand there isnt much difference except cure time.

 

[Chris Thomas]

Optimum coatings have been around for quite a few years now and we've seen just about everything it is capable and not capable of. We've done extensive testing on the resin itself, the consumer coating, and the professional coating.

Both coatings bond to paint within a couple of minutes, can be wet with water after an hour, can be washed with gentle shampoos after 24 hours, and stronger chemicals after 1-2 weeks. They should be cured enough to handle testing after 30 day, but can take as long as 90 days to fully harden.

But...none of this will be accurate if that initial bond doesn't happen. It does seem that you were very thorough with your prep, so I don't think you made an application error. I do however think there's something on the surface that's preventing the bond. We know that some polishes have fillers and oils that can be very difficult to remove and rather than test them all and make an exhaustive list of what you shouldn't use before coating, we recommend using our polishes because we are certain of what's in them and that nothing will be left behind that will prevent bonding when used per our instructions.

What I'd like to do if you are up for it, is to send you a complimentary bottle of Optimum Polish II. Make 4-6 section passes, then wipe down the panel with a soft, water dampened microfiber towel, then follow the Opti Coat 2.0 instructions on the label with NO deviations.

Then wait a week to wash and a month before doing any harsh chemical or polishing tests. It doesn't surprise me that the product was able to be stripped after only 3 days and in light of there being a previous bonding issue. We know that Opti Coat will only last a few months if there's something between it and the paint...so that has to be the issue. We have many positive test results and testimonial, as well as personal experience, backing these coatings performance so I'm happy to help you resolve your issue. If there were to still be an issue after the procedure I've outline has been followed, we will refund or exchange your coating purchase. Please PM me your ship to address for the Optimum Polish II.

 

[TANTO]

Got my OC 2 today and was ready to go tomorrow. I've already polished with 085RD. The directions say to use only 15% IPA. And now i'm reading you are recommending mineral spirits which as i understand it is more harsh than 100% IPA. In the old days using mineral spirits was a no-no. Has too many paint softening chemicals. But on this DD i'm not worried about any softening or whatever. From these threads i'm worried about the super low concentrate of 15% IPA doing anything at all.

Mineral spirts DOES leave residue and can take 15 minutes to evaporate, do you wipe it dry quickly minimizing this residue? I also have some old PrepSol that i've used in the past to remove wax. My gut is telling me to go there, but it also needs to wiped off.

Thought i'd try this product on my DD Toyota Van. Does need to be perfect, but if the product goes away, i be pissed . Chris please help. TIA

 

[Setec Astronomy]

If you are worried that 15% IPA will not cut your soils, and that Mineral Spirits or PrepSol will evaporate too slowly or leave residue, it's clear to me you need to do a MS/PrepSol initial wipe, followed by a 15% IPA wipe to remove anything the first step left.

 

[swanicyouth]

Thanks for the offer Chris, I just saw it. I already have and use all the Optimim Polishes, but I didn't use them when I OptiCoated this vehicle. I also use, OID, Opti Spray Wax, Opti Clean, OptiBond, & ONR. Both my vehicles have Opticoat on the wheels that is holding up fine. I decided not to re-coat the vehicle at this time. I have it protected with conventional wax and sealant.

 

[coredump4]

So I'm about to embark on my first Opti-Coat 2.0 application. The patient is covered by 3M VentureShield in the front, and the rest of the car has Wolfgang Deep Gloss Paint Sealant. Questions I have after reading through this thread:

1) I think OC will adhere to the 3M film, and the film's installer said it would be fine to put OC on top of it. Any prep I need to do to the film? I obviously don't want to use a DA on the film and I'm hesitant to use most (if any) chemicals on it.

2) For the non-film surfaces that have Wolfgang DGPS on them, what's the best way to remove this product? It lasts a really long time and it was applied less than 60 days ago. I'm hoping a couple of washes with Dawn followed by some Eraser will do it. If necessary, I will polish the car with the DA again, but I have already perfected the paint and REALLY don't want to have to go another round with the DA. But if I must go this route, would something like 4 Star Ultimate Pre-Wax Cleanser on a grey buffing pad be enough do you think? I ask this because I have limited compounds "in stock" right now. I also have some Meguiar's 82 (Swirl-Free Polish) as well.

Thanks for all the advice in the thread, it's been really good to see this discussion prior to my first go with OC!

 

[fishbonezken]

In March of 2012 I polished out my vehicle finishing with Wolfgang Finishing Glaze. After I wiped it down with 20% IPA and Opticoated it. At the time I didn't realize how significant the "glaze" is in Wolfgang Finishing Glaze. Since, I've realized it does leave a significant glaze behind.

Since then, I've applied different spray waxes to it after washing. I wash it weekly, and it always beads well. About a week ago I applied PB White Diamond and Nattys to exactly one half the good to see if there was any durability. Before applying that, I cleaned the hood with IPA and Sonus APC to kill any of the spray wax.

Yesterday I washed the vehicle and the waxed half didn't bead at all. So I figured the Nattys was gone. So, I decided to clean the hood only with the Sonus APC 30:1 to remove any residue to re apply the spray wax. Sonus says this product is OK to use on paint an it removes wax
Nicely.

However, after cleaning the whole hood after washing, I noticed it appeared the OptiCoat was gone! I thought maybe this was a remnant of the Sonus cleaner, so I cleaned it again with Griots Paint Prep. Gone! The water just sat on the hood with no sheeting or beading whatsoever.

Thing back, ever since I coated this vehicle it always beaded well. When I first washed it after coating it I recall it beading well. Since then, it's beaded we'll and evenly while washing, and whenever it rains. However, I always apply
A spray wax after washing to slicken the surface and boost gloss.

After I noticed the hood wasn't beading, I wiped half the front fender with APC. It still beaded well. Looking back, I should have wiped down the whole vehicle while it was clean and I had a hose out to see of this problem was isolated to the hood.

For some reason, it seems the OC is gone from at least the hood of my vehicle. I wondering if has has to do with my initial polishing with the Wolfgang Finishing Glaze? Maybe it wasn't all wiped off, even though I did extensively wipe it down with IPA.
But why only the hood??? I'll have to strip all the spray wax off the vehicle and rinse it again to be sure it's isolated to the hood only.

Anyway, last night I ordered another syringe of OC and a liter of eraser. I plan on polishing (hopefully only the hood) with Optimum Finish Polish, cleaning with Eraser and re coating. I'm hoping it's only the hood.

A few questions:

1. Has experience shown Erasor is able to kill any left over wax or polish?

2. Anyone have any idea what happened here or a similar experience ?

Thanks

I don't think this has anything to do with the Wolfgang Finishing Glaze interfering with the bonding process as you mentioned the other areas of the car still has strong beading from the Opti-Coat.

It's pretty obvious that the Opti-Coat has been removed by the PB White Diamond, although it is a cleaner/glaze, I suspect there could be very mild abrasives in it that has abraded the Opti-Coat away. If it did not fully remove the opti-coat, it might have removed the 'top coat' that provides the water repellent function of the coating. Just my guess.

 

[swanicyouth]

As it turned out, the OC was gone from the whole vehicle. The beading was coming from the Primo Hydro spray wax is use on it after every wash. That stuff beads like no other. Since I was using that after every wash and washing frequently, I never noticed there was a problem until I decided to try topping the the OC with other things.

 

[Radarryan]

Sorry to re-hash an old thread, but I am concerned after reading this. First, I have done two vehicles with Opti-Coat 2.0, my 2013 Porsche 911 and my mom's 2012 BMW X5. I followed the directions to a T: my car used Optimum Polish II and Finish while my mom's used M205. I used the 15% IPA solution, as stated in the directions from Optimum, to prepare the surface for bonding. Are you all, Chris included, saying that Opti-Coat will not bond to the paint using the IPA solution because the solution is too weak. I am concerned because I did not sure any mineral spirits, full strength IPA, or APC because the directions say I do not have to and the 15% will be sufficient.

Are the manufacturer's directions wrong or misleading? I prepares the surface AS STATED but now am learning that this was incorrect? I do not want to re polish, decontaminate, and re Opti-Coat my cars because of an error on the part of the manufacturer. Please someone let me know if the Opti-Coat is going to wear off both my and my mom's vehicles after proper preparation as per the directions. Heck, I even bought the Optimum applicator to ensure I was doing everything correctly.

Thanks and happy detailing!

 

[ihaveacamaro]

the only way you'll know for sure is with time. FWIW, I polished my car with optimum products and then only did a damp mf wipedown before applying opticoat. 8 months later and is still going strong.

 

[Radarryan]

the only way you'll know for sure is with time. FWIW, I polished my car with optimum products and then only did a damp mf wipedown before applying opticoat. 8 months later and is still going strong.

For sure. Thanks Roshan for your input. The main reason I'm concerned/angry is I hate to have wasted all that time, money, and energy on a "permanent solution" only to have it last as long as a sealant. I have no problem shelling out the money for a coating if it does as the manufacturer claims. If it doesn't, especially when following the manufacturer's directions, then I'm gonna be pissed. If they knew 15% IPA, or at least had circumstantial evidence from customers, wouldn't be strong enough or wouldn't cut it, then they shouldn't advertise it as such or put it in the directions. I think everyone can agree with that...

 

[ihaveacamaro]

For sure. Thanks Roshan for your input. The main reason I'm concerned/angry is I hate to have wasted all that time, money, and energy on a "permanent solution" only to have it last as long as a sealant. I have no problem shelling out the money for a coating if it does as the manufacturer claims. If it doesn't, especially when following the manufacturer's directions, then I'm gonna be pissed. If they knew 15% IPA, or at least had circumstantial evidence from customers, wouldn't be strong enough or wouldn't cut it, then they shouldn't advertise it as such or put it in the directions. I think everyone can agree with that...

I think if you followed Chris' instructions or Optimum's instructions, you will have best results. There would be no reason for them to give wrong information and mess up the press of their own product after all.

 

[Chris Thomas]

I don't use IPA at any dilution, but that's a personal choice because I don't like the lack of lubrication and I believe it could re-deposit what it loosens due to its fast flash time.

The directions Optimum gives is to follow "Optimum" polishes with IPA pre coating and I am positive that is good info because Optimum polishes can be followed with nothing more than a water dampened microfiber and be ready to coat.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD