Stubborn swirls: Technique or neglected paint?

[captchaos]

I got my flex 3401 and M105/205 kit last week and started using it for the first time this weekend. I found the flex pretty easy to control, it brought my 13 year old SUV's oxidized paint back to a shine I don't remember it ever having.

Onto my wife's black 2006 TSX, I had more difficulty. With both cars I struggled with the 105 turning to dust. I started misting the pad and the work area with detail mist on the pad and got better results, but still found the 105 a little frustrating to work with (as many others do from reading the forums). Anyway, the TSX hasn't had much TLC over the years, just the local car wash every now and then. I got the water and bird etchings out pretty easily and the paint looks good in the overhead fluorescent lights, but I can still see plenty (although less) swirling with a flashlight.

I've gone over the same sections several times (divided hood into 4) and they seem to be pretty stubborn. I'm using an orange pad with the 105, with the 3401 on 5, making slow left-right/up-down motions (1 inch per second I read). I don't think I need much pressure on the machine so I'm applying just enough to keep it flat on the paint. I'm not able to get more than 4-5 passes before the 105 either dusts or turns translucent.

Should I order a yellow pad or is my technique the issue? I didn't' get any yellows as I read the Honda/Acura clear coat was pretty soft.

This new 'hobby' sure can eat up a lot of time. Was 4pm on Sunday before I knew it.

Jim

 

[sohail99]

You're using only M105??

AS you said that the paint is soft, I believe it might be compounding swirls left behind my the aggressive M105/orange pad approach!

Try M205 with a white polishing pad after M105/orange!
It should remove all those shallow swirls/marring left behind by the compounding process.

And jewel with M205 on black!

M205 should remove those!

 

[SeaJay's]

To help with the dusting of the M105 use a spritz of baby oil. It will enable you to work the product longer and limits the dusting.

And as Sohail said, trying following up with the 205. Sounds like it might be some swirling left behind from the M105 and orange pad.

 

[dougaross]

Make sure you are not buffing dry. There should be a wet of product film trailing the buffer. Wipe with your finger to test.

 

[captchaos]

To help with the dusting of the M105 use a spritz of baby oil. It will enable you to work the product longer and limits the dusting.

I saw a 1,000 page post about this and saw several 'pro' recommendations to NOT do this. No real reason given though.

I was trying to not write a book and left out the fact that I did start the job with a black pad and M205. I really didn't see much improvement, there were heavy water spots and bug/bird etchings that remained. The swirls are diminished and even gone in some spots (they seem to be less severe at the back of the hood) but say 40% still there. Should I not expect results like the before/after picture at Learn how to use the Porter Cable 7424 dual action buffer with CCS Smart Pads by Lake Country. Polish swirl remover car wax polisher wax buffing pad

 

[SeaJay's]

I saw a 1,000 page post about this and saw several 'pro' recommendations to NOT do this. No real reason given though.

I was trying to not write a book and left out the fact that I did start the job with a black pad and M205. I really didn't see much improvement, there were heavy water spots and bug/bird etchings that remained. The swirls are diminished and even gone in some spots (they seem to be less severe at the back of the hood) but say 40% still there. Should I not expect results like the before/after picture at Learn how to use the Porter Cable 7424 dual action buffer with CCS Smart Pads by Lake Country. Polish swirl remover car wax polisher wax buffing pad

I've been doing it for a little while now and I have never had an issue. It really helps with the working time and dusting of the product. But to each is own. If your not comfortable doing it, then that's fine. Just figured I'd give you the idea to mull over.

You should be able to get near perfect results with your PC and the M105 and M205 combo. I've done several cars with just this combo and the CCS pads and have had great results. Maybe you need to do more section passes? Applying some pressure?

Did you hit the spots that you did with M105 with the M205 on a white pad after to see if it would clear up some of the swirls? A lot of time you get some swirls or micro-marring from a heavy compound like M105 and it needs to be finished off with a finer polish/pad combo.

 

[captchaos]

I've been doing it for a little while now and I have never had an issue. It really helps with the working time and dusting of the product. But to each is own.

I'll give it a shot, can't see how a little baby oil is going to hurt anyway. The 105 dries very quickly so I was probably dry buffing, I sometimes had to spray it down to get it off. No one said it yet but it sounds like the yellow pad might get me into trouble so I'll keep at it with orange/black and see what happens.

As far as your other two questions, I used a bathroom scale to measure about 10lbs of pressure (just barely more than the weight of the flex itself) and have been using about that much. I did about 5 passes on a single area and although the swirling is improved, it's not completely gone like in the previously mentioned how-to picture.

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

As far as your other two questions, I used a bathroom scale to measure about 10lbs of pressure (just barely more than the weight of the flex itself) and have been using about that much.

I did about 5 passes on a single area and although the swirling is improved, it's not completely gone like in the previously mentioned how-to picture.

Try applying a little more pressure... I think I wrote the original article about using a bathroom scale to gauge pressure in this thread dated September 27th, 2004

Using the G-100 to remove swirls with the Professional Line

Pictures Courtesy of MeguiarsOnline

When using the G100 Dual Action Polisher to remove defects, (This is different then merely applying a polish or a wax because you're trying to remove paint), you need to use a slow arm speed, overlap you passes by 50% and apply between 15 pounds and 20 pounds of pressure onto the head of the polisher.

To get an idea of how hard this is to push down, simply place your polisher onto an everyday bathroom scale and then press down on the head of the polisher and take note of how hard you're pushing. If you like, you can even tape some heavy plastic around the scale as you can see that I did in the below picture and actually turn the polisher on and practice pushing down as you move the polisher around. Also listen to the sound of the motor to get an idea of how it sounds at the pressure you are applying. Make sure you have someone to hold the scale in place when you do this.

15 pounds of pressure on the head of the polisher

20 pounds of pressure on the head of the polisher

And while not a perfect method to gauge pressure if you're new to machine polishing it's "something" to help give you an idea.

When trying to remove paint, which is how you remove below surface defects, you need to engage the abrasives with the paint so they will take little bites out of it.

Also, clean your pad often to remove any spent product and removed paint, this will help a lot with making any product easier to buff with and wipe off.


Also, don't know if you're already doing this or not but it's really helpful to use a tape line to accurately gauge your progress and results, otherwise you have no distinct demarcation line but instead a fuzzy area between before and after and you can't accurately see the true before and after results.

Like this,

Also, make sure you're not trying to remove all the RIDS unless this is a show car you're planning on putting on display...

RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term...


:xyxthumbs:

 

[Harleyguy]

Try applying a little more pressure... I think I wrote the original article about using a bathroom scale to gauge pressure in this thread dated September 27th, 2004

Using the G-100 to remove swirls with the Professional Line

Pictures Courtesy of MeguiarsOnline



And while not a perfect method to gauge pressure if you're new to machine polishing it's "something" to help give you an idea.

When trying to remove paint, which is how you remove below surface defects, you need to engage the abrasives with the paint so they will take little bites out of it.

Also, clean your pad often to remove any spent product and removed paint, this will help a lot with making any product easier to buff with and wipe off.


Also, don't know if you're already doing this or not but it's really helpful to use a tape line to accurately gauge your progress and results, otherwise you have no distinct demarcation line but instead a fuzzy area between before and after and you can't accurately see the true before and after results.

Like this,

Also, make sure you're not trying to remove all the RIDS unless this is a show car you're planning on putting on display...

RIDS - The Definition of RIDS and the story behind the term...


:xyxthumbs:

Mike i did the bathroom scale test .The only problem that i ran into was i messed up the paint on the hood when i layed the scale on it . Im the MAN:joking:

 

[dougaross]

Do not press so hard as to stop pad rotation. Put a black marker line the backing plate to make it easier to observe rotation.

 

[RaskyR1]

Jim,

Is there any chance you can get a pic of your paint with direct lighting to show the swirls? I have a 2008 TSX and my paint is ridiculously soft. Removing defect is easy, finishing down without marring is a little harder. I'm just wondering if what you are seeing is marring and not swirling.

The paint is pretty thin on these cars too.

I removed wet-sanding marks doing 1 section pass with M105 and an ornageLC pad on the PCXP.

and after M205 on a black LC pad......I've also found the Crimson LC pad to finish down better on my paint with M205 than the black pad.

 

[93fox]

I'll give it a shot, can't see how a little baby oil is going to hurt anyway. The 105 dries very quickly so I was probably dry buffing, I sometimes had to spray it down to get it off. No one said it yet but it sounds like the yellow pad might get me into trouble so I'll keep at it with orange/black and see what happens.

As far as your other two questions, I used a bathroom scale to measure about 10lbs of pressure (just barely more than the weight of the flex itself) and have been using about that much. I did about 5 passes on a single area and although the swirling is improved, it's not completely gone like in the previously mentioned how-to picture.

I am going to say the problem is in the orange/black pads... I dont see why you use a black pad after an orange. First start off 105 with orange pad, 205 with white pad and then if you want 205 with the black pad. But not using the white pad is what may not the scratches go away!

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

I got my flex 3401 and M105/205 kit last week

Do not press so hard as to stop pad rotation. Put a black marker line the backing plate to make it easier to observe rotation.

Just to note, if he's using the Flex 3401 then you can't stop the pad by pushing too hard as this is a forced rotation DA Polisher.

 

[RaskyR1]

I am going to say the problem is in the orange/black pads... I dont see why you use a black pad after an orange. First start off 105 with orange pad, 205 with white pad and then if you want 205 with the black pad. But not using the white pad is what may not the scratches go away!

Not really...it depends on the paint.

Typically the black pad and M205 should have no trouble removing the light marring left behind by M105/orange.

 

[captchaos]

Jim,

Is there any chance you can get a pic of your paint with direct lighting to show the swirls? I have a 2008 TSX and my paint is ridiculously soft. Removing defect is easy, finishing down without marring is a little harder. I'm just wondering if what you are seeing is marring and not swirling.

I'll try to get a picture. I admit I don't have a really good idea of the difference between marring/swirling but if I had to guess I'd say what I have looks more like the first picture, not the second, from this post: http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum...uffer-swirls-cobweb-swirls-micro-marring.html

 

[RaskyR1]

Yeah, I would say that it's marring from your polishing then. I also found my paint not to really like the movement on the Flex DA.


Do you have any Menzerna polishes or Porter Cable/G110 DA?

 

[Mike PhillipsMike Phillips is verified member.]

Yeah, I would say that it's marring from your polishing then. I also found my paint not to really like the movement on the Flex DA.

Do you have any Menzerna polishes or Porter Cable/G110 DA?

Good insights...

:xyxthumbs:

 

[captchaos]

​

All I have is the 105/205 & the flex. Can't see the swirls in the garage except with a flashlight, will try a sunlight pic tomorrow.

 

[RaskyR1]

All I have is the 105/205 & the flex. Can't see the swirls in the garage except with a flashlight, will try a sunlight pic tomorrow.

What about different pads? What speed were you on when you went over it with M205?

 

[captchaos]

Had to go do the things that support my new 'polishing habit' for a few days lol.

Anyway, I wasn't able to get a picture that captured the defects but I did take several suggestions and tried the following:

Black pad with 205, more pressure than previously used: very little effect.

Orange pad with 205, still more pressure: beautiful, unmarred clear coat! I couldn't see anything in the fluorescent, halogen, or LED flashlight (this wavelength seems to pick up more micro scratches).

My theory is that the orange/105 created swirls that the no-cut black & 205 couldn't handle on this car with my patience level. Quite a few of you suggested a pad in between the orange and black & I think you're spot on.

Thanks everyone for your help! I can't wait to get the rest of the car done. I thought I was going to need a new paint job because of all the water/bird etching but it's all gone now.