swirls wont come out. any ideas?

wils91

wils91

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Hi everyone. first post.

trying to figure out what i'm doing wrong.

I'm new to using a DA. and recently started getting good quality products to take care of mine, and my wife's vehicles. never used 2 buckets, grit guards, good mitts, dryed sing only towels, etc. now i have all that stuff and am ready to take care of our cars vehicles the correct way.

One day when washing my Ingot Silver 2012 F-150 I noticed some light-medium swirling/scratching on the hood. this was out in the sun and at an angle i could see them. I can't really see any on the body panels but i'm sure they are there.

fast forward to today. I had some time so i though i could try out some stuff on the hood to see if i could remove the swirling. the truck was clean but i did a good rinse less anyway using ONR and many towels, going in an S pattern. i then clayed using a Nanoskin wash mitt using diluted ONR as a lube. wiped again with my rinsless wash and dryed it off.

I was working in my garage for the polishing step.

PC7424 XP with 5" bp

I have some of the Wolfgang Swirl remover, Wolfgang finishing glaze, Griots 1 step polish/sealant. i also have LC flat pads in 5.5" in Orange, White, Black, and Blue (6 each)

Here is what pad/product combos i tried.

WG Glaze/black
WG Glaze/white
WG glaze/orange
WG swirl remover/black
WG swirl remover/white
WG swirl remover/orange
GG 1 step black/white/orange

i was trying small areas for each combo. 4-6 passes going in the cross hatch pattern. it also seemed like with even using light-medium pressure the pad would want to stop spinning. I primed the pad and used pea sized dots while cleaning the pads with a terry towel. i feel that i was using enough product. i felt i was going slow enough as well.

after everything i tried, the swirls were still there. they are hard to see as it is because of the silver paint but i know they are there and it bothers me.

is there something else i need to do or am not doing? not enough machine speed? maybe try a different brand product or combo?

Thanks for any help
 
try it at the 6 speed applying pressure, 5-6 passes. with the PC you really want to be at 6 speed and slow arm movement. Wolfgang Swirl Remover should work good with the orange pad.
 
will the higher speed help with the issue of the pad not spinning while under pressure?

i want to say that i was only using maybe 5-8 lbs of pressure and it was wanting to not spin on speed 5
 
More experienced members will chime in. But I think the swirl remover you are using is not abrasive enough to remove your swirl marks. There was a paint and clear coat toughness chart on here somewhere along with the best combination of pads and compounds for each make. I'm sure someone can point you to it or provide suggestions as to what compound to use
 
wils91 said:
will the higher speed help with the issue of the pad not spinning while under pressure?

i want to say that i was only using maybe 5-8 lbs of pressure and it was wanting to not spin on speed 5
Click to expand...

yes it will help out tremendously, be sure to mark your backing plate so you know its spinning. that is one thing the Mike Phillips emphasizes, mark your backing plate. apply some pressure but not so much that the pad is not spinning.
 
Sounds like you might need to step up yo Uber if you want to stay with Wolfgang. I haven't done any Fords so I don't know if the paint is normally hard.
 
refreshauto said:
yes it will help out tremendously, be sure to mark your backing plate so you know its spinning. that is one thing the Mike Phillips emphasizes, mark your backing plate. apply some pressure but not so much that the pad is not spinning.
Click to expand...

ok cool. i'll try the higher speed next. i have already marked my plate. one of the first things i did when i got it.

DaveT435 said:
Sounds like you might need to step up yo Uber if you want to stay with Wolfgang. I haven't done any Fords so I don't know if the paint is normally hard.
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I'm not really married to the Wolfgang brand. just something i bought to try more or less.
 
Meguiars Ultimate Compound is a little more aggressive than the TSR. A lot cheaper too.
 
Wow, calm down, is the first thing I'd suggest you to do... take a breath.

Consider the technique you're using. Regarding the 'pad stop spinning so easily' part directs to adjustments in technique.

By technique, I mean from where you are positioning yourself to how you are wiping off the polish residue in the end.

In between this large technique range, I recommend you to keep the pad flat, paying attention to your both hands while holding the polisher. The hand on bottom must guarantee the correct tool positioning, ~parallel to the surface you're polishing.

The hand in the front not only holds, but guides, and adds pressure.

Think about the following when adding pressure:

You'll be adding pressure through the tool and backing plate to CONFORM the pad onto surface you'll be polishing. The pressure is something I'd describe better with the word FIRM than heavy. Conform and engage the PAD on surface, not trying to hang over the tool that much. You must feel it.

Surface lubrication is another very important aspect of pad spinning when using DA. And pad spinning = results you're after. To guarantee that, you need plenty amount of product, and how much is plenty for your conditions you need to fine tune while performing initial tests.

I recommend you to put some drops of product on a polishing pad, dab the pad over surface 5-6 times trying to distribute product over a 24x24" area size maximum, select speed 3 on your polisher and do 1 fast pass over entire work section to spread product evenly.

Now, you will crank speed up to 5.5-6, position the polisher with no pressure at all (at least until you learn it better). The pad will spin on these conditions, unless you have a defective PC unit. And it'll spin fast!

Start moving the polisher very slow, and slowly start adding pressure to the polisher, now thinking about what I said to you regarding engaging the PAD. Calibrate the correct pressure and go on.

Are your both hands working to keep the polisher well positioned?

Don't rush, keep moving slowly. In the first(s) passes it's likely you will get the most cut from your polish. Get advantage of this always, moving slower, more speed on dial, and pressure on the PAD. Skipping attention on the first passes and doing then 10 passes will not give you any better outcome.

I'd start from white pad and swirl remover, using what I said to you above.

If not working, I'd step to orange pad and swirl remover.

Wolfgang products are good, I'm pretty sure they are not responsible for the issues you're facing.

Relax that shoulders, bro.

And good luck.

Kind Regards.
 
The many Fords and Lincolns i have done have been generally on the hard side. I had some minor swirling on my BMW recently and tried WG TSR with an orange pad and had to increase to Menzerna Power Gloss to get rid of them. The TSR just wasn't getting it done. If that's all you have, try to crank it up to 6 and exert just enough pressure to stop the spin then lighten up just enough to return the spin and make slow slow passes. If you get some correction...do it again.
 
The first time I used my pc 7424, I made the mistake of not using speed 6. After I started using speed 6... it was a huge difference.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using AG Online
 
Get you some Wolfgang Uber Compound, works well, wipes off easy.

Using a DA along with an orange Lake Country Flat pad, 5.5" , put an X on the pad for the first time then only 3-4 small drops there after.
I've used a lot of compounds and find the Uber to be the easiest, it doesn't have the bite as of the 105 but I've done a few cars that were totally trashed and worked like a charm.

Make about four, slow passes with good pressure, wipe off then inspect then tell us what you think of it.
IMO it's the best at what it does in removing defects it wipes of like a fine polish, you won't be disappointed man.

I used Meguiar's 105 for a long time but rarely use it since finding out about the Uber.

5 Star product:)
 
I agree with the consensus so far, in that TSR just doesn't have enough cut to work that hard Ford paint, ESPECIALLY silver. Also, on the PC any speed below 5.5~6 isn't going to 'cut' it. (pun intended) :laughing:

Do this:
Tape off the hood into 6 sections, no larger than 20"x 20" square.

Prime a white pad with Megs UC - and do no more than 4~5 section passes, medium pressure, slow arm speed (no more than 1½" per second).

Prime a orange pad with Megs UC - and do no more than 4~5 section passes, medium pressure, slow arm speed (no more than 1½" per second).

Get some WG Uber or better yet, Menzerna FG400, and some IP-1500

Prime a white pad with one of the above - and do no more than 4~5 section passes, medium pressure, slow arm speed (no more than 1½" per second).

Prime a orange pad with one of the above - and do no more than 4~5 section passes, medium pressure, slow arm speed (no more than 1½" per second).

The KEY is to ALWAYS do the same amount of section passes, same machine and same arm speed. Be that 4 or 5 doesn't matter at this point.

Later on, when you start to figure out what product works for you best, THEN you can start playing around with arm pressure and speed. But basically the machine speed will stay the same.

Save the last two sections for after you've done the above. No need to hit them with a yellow pad or microfiber pad, UNTIL YOU KNOW that the white or orange isn't working.

After doing your sections, carefully wipe, then do an inspection with an Eraser wipe down, or something like IPA, (or you can pick up a gallon of Megs 114 Express Wash, add a little IPA and make your own panel wipe for literally pennies of what Eraser cost). Either way, Eraser or the Megs mix are safer than IPA, BUT you can use the alcohol wipe, just be VERY CAREFUL as without lubricity it'll add micromarring.

At this stage you're not looking for total correction, just to see which one, WITH ONLY 4 PASSES, is getting you started the best. Once you figure that out, THEN you can do more passes.

Now the trick is; Using Meguiar's UC for instance... that is SMAT based, and it'll cut on pass 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and keep on cutting until it either dries out or more than likely the abrasives double in size from spent product and abraded paint being picked up around each particle. So, SMAT products you work shorter, wipe clean, and if you need more THEN you add a few more drops and work it again.

BUT..... if you're using Menzerna or Wolfgang, those are DAT and they (given that both the SMAT and DAT products start with the same cut) will actually cut MORE the first pass, and from that point on they diminish and cut less, and less, and less. The offset is that they tend to finish better on all but the hardest paints. Well actually they do finish better, on all but the hardest paints. They ALSO WORK LONGER!!!!

So say you did the 4 passes and you decided that you like the results from the DAT products. From there you can do a very light spritz of distilled water on your pad, then go back to that section and work it 4 more times, and can even speed up the machine a tick, say from 5 to 5½ or 5½ to 6 as well as arm speed. DAT products can actually once you start polishing that is, benefit from slowing down the machine speed for the last, (finishing down the product phase) yet speed up the arm speed.

Where if you like the SMAT product, and it's very VERY VERY likely you will with hard paint, (ESPECIALLY for the first buffing stage). Then after the first 4~5 passes (whichever one you choose to go with up front) do a clean wipe, and use FRESH product for the remaining 3~4 passes.

One other thing; WRITE DOWN what you are going to do, as well as what you actually did with each pad, each product, each section. Don't think that you'll remember it once you start experimenting. Been there, done that. :rolleyes:

Once you've got the process worked out, it'll come as second nature next time.

Remember though, this is just for the compounding stage.
Once you get THAT figured out, go back over each section, before you remove the tape, and make them all the same.

Now you can start doing basically the same thing for your polishing stage.
Start with the least aggressive method/pad/product and work your way from there.
Once you get the results you want, it's all downhill from there.
Do keep in mind, that a DAT polish can finish down really well with a fairly aggressive pad. I've done Lexus metallic black, and dark blue with an orange pad and 1500 as an AIO and it turned out fantastic. Solid black though is single stage, and a different animal all together. :eek:

I mentioned Menzerna 1500 because it'll finish down REALLY well, yet do a lot of correction on it's own. Sadly I don't have a lot of experience with WG-TSR (but do have a few sample bottles here, one that came today actually). ;) I also haven't bought any Uber, but will gladly accept samples. ;) Say from HateSwirls - Kevin heheheee or anyone else that wants to send me some, maybe some WG Glaze as well. :D

You can even start with a more aggressive pad with a DAT polish, and finish it down with a less aggressive pad without ever changing to a lesser cut polish. Just let the pad be the one variable in the process, making it more like a 1.5 level correction rather than a true 2-step correction.

I don't really think you'll need anything more than 1500 on that F-150 although 2000 might be an option, and it does finish even better with almost the same cut. Anything higher than that and, especially for a daily driver in silver, is just a waste of time and effort.
 
You have the right products for the job and I don't necessarily agree with other posters that you need to step up to a more aggressive compound just yet.

Sounds like your issue is with technique. You said you already marked your backing plate, that's good. If the pad isn't spinning you probably aren't running the polisher fast enough. With the 7424 you really need to be a speed 6 for proper correction. Slower speeds just don't work for defect removal on this machine.

If you're still seeing swirls after your section pass, I would try shrinking your working area down to around 16x16 and slowing your arm speed down to about an inch per second. As far as pressure, use enough so you can watch the mark on your backing plate spin, but not so much that it stops moving altogether. If the marking is going so fast that it is a blur, add more downward pressure.

Lastly, if you are using the side handle on the polisher, try taking it off and supporting the front of the polisher right over the head. This will help with the proper application of downward pressure and will help you keep the backing plate spinning.

You just have to keep the limitations of the porter cable in mind when doing a job like this. It's going to take longer and be more strenuous on you than if you were using a more powerful machine. Nothing wrong with that, just the way it is.

So try these things with total swirl remover on an orange pad. If that doesn't do the trick then it would be time to get more aggressive with product and pad, I just don't feel like you are at that point just yet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
wow! thanks for the responses. I've learned a lot.

I won't be able to mess with it again until maybe Monday. But i'll give it a shot using the higher speed and working the machine differently.

Then if that still doesn't work, i'll try some different, more aggressive product.

another question.
If i'm not getting the swirls to come out am i doing anything to damage the clearcoat or paint, other than possibly instilling more swirling or marring?
 
wils91 said:
wow! thanks for the responses. I've learned a lot.

I won't be able to mess with it again until maybe Monday. But i'll give it a shot using the higher speed and working the machine differently.

Then if that still doesn't work, i'll try some different, more aggressive product.

another question.
If i'm not getting the swirls to come out am i doing anything to damage the clearcoat or paint, other than possibly instilling more swirling or marring?
Click to expand...

you have all the proper tools needed, just have to get your technique down and you will be straight.
 
Where are you located ? Luck may have it that a member or two may be close to your location that can lend you a hand.
 
If you are not removing swirls either they are too deep or you are barely doing any paint removal to get the job done.

If you are instilling marring, and swirls are coming out, odds are you're being more aggressive than necessary.

However, even if not removing swirls, you risk heating up the paint and leaving some damage from overheating. My best tip here is to touch the paint often to assess the amount of heat being generated in your process.

If it's 'damn hot' to the touch, stop and/or wait and/or move to another area.

To step up for a more aggressive product, I need to find the limit for the product I'm trying.

I mean: If I'm already using Swirl remover and orange pad, speed 6, LOTS of pressure, and I see it barely removing swirls, it's time to step up product.

With the coarser product, I'd start using speed lower than 6 (i.e: 5).

I'd prefer to use a coarser product with slow polisher speed than using a light product taking it to the limit and be struggling to remove anything. This will also likely generate more heat and can cause some damage like I've said above.

If you do a better technique with the pad flat, engaged, speed 6, slow arm speed, I'd even try to do a double pass instead of single pass.

That means: Go from left to right, them go back from right to left, over the same area. Now you go down 50% of your prior pass, and do the same, go to one side, go back over the same part, then go down 50% and keep doing it.

Repeat the process Up/down.

I count this approach as 2 passes, since you're literally passing twice over the work section. That said, one time side to side, and another up/down I count as 4 passes.

After doing this, I may either do at least on more time with same pressure and slow arm movement going over the same area (2 passes per line), and do the last 2 passes easing on pressure to finish out my section.

Please, this is not the best or only way to do it, I'm just giving food for your thoughts on troubleshooting strategies I may use to get the job done.

Remember, passing over the same section back and forth can increase heat, so assessing the surface with your hand is mandatory when doing this.

Hope that helps,

Kind Regards.
 
wils91 said:
ok cool. i'll try the higher speed next. i have already marked my plate. one of the first things i did when i got it.



I'm not really married to the Wolfgang brand. just something i bought to try more or less.
Click to expand...

Menzerna FG400
 
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