The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

Mike, I was very happy to read your article. I agree wholeheartedly with its contents. In fact, I applied the best Feynlab product there was in June of 2017 when I bought my new Lincoln, namely their Self Heal Plus. (Although it now includes a topper of their Top Coat and it did not at the time). I found that through this brutal winter where a ton of the salt mixture had been added to the roads, that I was getting contamination along the lower sides of the doors. I used a clay mitt and clayed the area a few times during the winter while washing in my garage to keep it at bay. Now that the summer is here, I am getting no contamination whatsoever.

The Feynlab warranty will only stay intact if a yearly inspection is done. That "inspection" includes a wash, chemical decontamination, clay bar decontamination and then a new coat of Top Coat. In my honest opinion, those steps will keep the paint clean and very well protected for the life of the warranty on the car. In Feynlab's case, you could probably extend that time period and get away with only the yearly inspection protocol...time will tell....that's just my opinion at this time.

But, yes, bottom line is that contamination will stick to the surface, even if coated, and needs to be removed.
 
I polish and coat my car once a year is the Spring because I can see my coating losing its initial pop even though I use toppers like PA High Gloss. I do a full decontamination at that time also. Could I get 18 months out of my coating? Probably. It just keeps my car looking it’s best.

I have an Alpine White BMW also and I was amazed the first time I totally detailed my paint. It went from cream back to white. White cars are probably the easiest color to maintain because when they get a little dirty they just look off white.
 
The environment may be the biggest factor. I have two years on a Optimum Gloss Coated white van. Daily driver, garaged at home and work. 10k miles per year. Northern CA. I've washed it once with Meguiar's Wash Plus to take any potential road film off, but the paint is as clean and shiny as ever. I do wash it every week and top with Opti-Seal once a month. A pressure wash still removes 90% of the dirt and the van outshines all the high end McLaren's and Porsche's in the parking garage at work. These guys ask me what magic wax I use.


If I was still in Tempe and parking outside, I'm guessing I would be polishing and recoating each year.
 
richy said:
Mike, I was very happy to read your article. I agree wholeheartedly with its contents. In fact, I applied the best Feynlab product there was in June of 2017 when I bought my new Lincoln, namely their Self Heal Plus. (Although it now includes a topper of their Top Coat and it did not at the time). I found that through this brutal winter where a ton of the salt mixture had been added to the roads, that I was getting contamination along the lower sides of the doors. I used a clay mitt and clayed the area a few times during the winter while washing in my garage to keep it at bay. Now that the summer is here, I am getting no contamination whatsoever.

The Feynlab warranty will only stay intact if a yearly inspection is done. That "inspection" includes a wash, chemical decontamination, clay bar decontamination and then a new coat of Top Coat. In my honest opinion, those steps will keep the paint clean and very well protected for the life of the warranty on the car. In Feynlab's case, you could probably extend that time period and get away with only the yearly inspection protocol...time will tell....that's just my opinion at this time.

But, yes, bottom line is that contamination will stick to the surface, even if coated, and needs to be removed.
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I think the installer should have let you know not to clay the car once the coating was on! You should not be using any abrasives including polishes and clays (even clay substitutes). You can do chemical decontamination if you want, in the case of salt that would be an acid based product like a wheel cleaner or a water spot remover.
 
I agree 7,8,9 years is getting carried away. I'm not going to say impossible, but... I've got an 8 year coating coming, and I didn't buy it because of the warranty. I bought it because I'm testing a couple different premium products for a combination of things like gloss, hydrophobic properties, self cleaning capabilities, etc. In my climate I don't think four years would be difficult to get out of a premium quality product if properly maintained, and still have the paint be glossy and bright.

Of course everyone's opinion is going to be different it's based on their personal experiences in their climate. The discussion really wasn't about durability of ceramic coatings. The main point I was trying to make is comparing a ceramic coating to bare paint isn't comparing apples to apples. IMO road grime won't stick to or discolor/stain a ceramic coating nearly as quickly as bare paint. Again this is my opinion based on my experience, especially seeing the difference between a coated panel next to an uncoated panel on a vehicle after only a few months.
 
I would not afraid of useing chemical decon on coatings. IME coating or other LSP you slow down the contaminants build up alot. Then you have that different chemicals desolves different kind of dirt. I use alkaline based degreaser on every wash as a prewash step. The winter months I ad tar degreaser to the prewash steps. This is not just for the tar spots that could be on it. But for the different contaminants the road salt is loosen up from the roads and sprays on the front and the side panels and the back of the car. We have studded winter tires on alot of the cars here which also take it's wear on the tarmac roads and if they are made from iron they get you alot of oxidized iron particals on the paint too. So every 2 months or so an iron remover is good to do so it gets to embedded to the paint.

A prewash foam like gtechnic w4 citrus foam or gyeon foam. And followed with a wash with carpro reset or gyeon bathe. Will get your coating cleaner in any environment I think. The contaminants will still be getting on there but it will take a longer time till it's get to much of them.
 
Ronin47 said:
Cars need to be polished atleast every year regardless of coated or not, even if its an AIO or finishing polish.
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I agree with the above if a person want's their car to look GREAT!

Nothing looks as good as a freshly polished and sealed paint job.

I see this over and over again because of what I do for a living.

Here's an example. This car sat in the Show Car Garage for about 2 weeks before the class last Wednesday night. Now this picture is off my phone, an iPhone 6+. So not the best phone camera but not the worst. Pictures kind of dark but this is how the car looked when it arrived.

BEFORE
1968_Z28_001.jpg



Over the course of the 2 weeks the car sat in the garage, multiple multiple people came and went to Autogeek and all those that came to the garage, (employees, guests, customers, etc.), EVERYONE would comment on how NICE the car looked!

And we had NOT done anything to it yet. Part of the reason people make comments like the above is because they don't have a trained eye nor to they know how to correctly inspect paint. They just see a cool Z28 Camaro under the FLORESCENT lights and think it looks SWEEEEET!

Me? I thought it looked like dog doo.


THEN WE CLAYED IT AND POLISHED IT.

Now it the paint absolutely GLOWS.

1968_Z28_Jewel_063.JPG


1968_Z28_Jewel_049.JPG



1968_Z28_Jewel_047.JPG



1968_Z28_Jewel_045.JPG





NOTHING looks as good as a just polished and waxed car.


(you can substitute coating or sealant for the word waxed, sometimes I use the word wax in the generic form to simply mean the paint was SEALED after polishing)


The paint on the Camaro is stunning to say the least. In one year from now, the paint will NOT look this good. It's going to see wear-n-tear, even as a garage queen. A DAILY DRIVER will look even worse in a year from now. So if you want your car's paint to looks it's best, then nothing looks as good as a just polished and waxed car or paint job.


Sure with a coating the appearance can be diminished with swirls and scratches, road film, etc and the paint is still coated and thus protected, but it's not going to look as good as the way it looked the moment the person that did the work made the final wipe after polishing and waxing, or polishing and coating.




12 different people - 6 different polishers and 1 jeweling wax = wet paint





Ronin47 said:
So yeah, coatings lasting pass the 24 month period doesn’t mean much if one wants their paint looking good.
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Agree.

I also know there are MORE people that care more about protection for their daily driver and as long as the paint is shiny, (not show car perfect), they're happy.


:)
 
Also just to make sure there's no confusion....


I'm a coating fan and a coating users. I teach people how to use coatings. I have my first write-up on how to "install" a coating that dates back to 2011 and I probably have more how-to articles on installing coatings than any other detailer, writer or instructor. So don't think this article is to dis coatings, it's not.

It was just me taking what I had, that is a picture of a white car that after doing a test spot using a tape-line, the DIRT FILM that had IMPACTED ONTO the paint showed up clearly on camera and MORE IMPORTANT to the 21 people standing there looking in amazement at what had just happened.

So instead of simply writing another article on dirt staining to paint, (I have at least 2 or 3, possible 4 or 5 articles with pictures on this topic), I used the pictures to educate on the point that when it comes to daily drivers, and especially daily driver where they are exposed to driving in the rain, (but it can happen in dry areas from air-borne pollution), get a dirt stain build up on the paint regardless of what was used to protect the paint.

And while the protection, (the coating), is under the dirt film and still protecting the paint, the paint will not look as good as its potential to look good due to the build-up of the dirt stain. AND while most people, the masses don't know and even if they did wouldn't care, for YOU GUYS that are hanging out on a car detailing discussion forum, I thought you guys mike like the point being made by the pictures in context of a ceramic coating and protection longevity versus appearance longevity.


That's all.


Great comments by all throughout this thread. I'm sure some of will share the link to this on other sites moving into the future and give other folks something to think about.


It's all good....


:)
 
Calendyr said:
I think the installer should have let you know not to clay the car once the coating was on! You should not be using any abrasives including polishes and clays (even clay substitutes). You can do chemical decontamination if you want, in the case of salt that would be an acid based product like a wheel cleaner or a water spot remover.
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Wouldn't that acid cleaner for example Megs wheel brightener degrade the coating?
 
DetailZeus said:
Another benefit of the annual detail is you don't have to go crazy with maintenance in the interim. Is my coating slowly losing its hydrophobic properties ? Is it degrading or just getting clogged? Will claying damage my coating? What should I top it with? How do I deal with waterspots?

All of these questions are moot if you know you will simply repolish and recoat come spring. You could do nothing but simply gently wash the car over the course of the year, which in my opinion, is the reason to choose a coating in the first place.
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this post is confusing to me. The point of the article is that some think a coating is longer than annual. And honestly, what you're describing with an annual polish and coating is what a lot of people, like myself do with a sealant. And honestly, There are about 5 steps i can skip in a sealed car vs a coated car.

idk, maybe i'm not understanding your post.
 
02whitetundra said:
Wouldn't that acid cleaner for example Megs wheel brightener degrade the coating?
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Coatings are acid and alkaline resitant. If you look at the MSDS of the coating you are using, it will very likelly state resistance from 2 to 12 on the PH scale. In order to have an acid be a level 1, you would have to use battery acid type of products. Wheel cleaners are much less acidic. For example, I use Meguiars Wheel Brightener diluted 4:1 as my standard wheel cleaner. This is one of the most agressive products available, some detailers refuse to use it because of the health risks. With that being said, that product is perfectly safe on non-coated paint. So imagine how safe it is on coated paint.

On the other hand, your clay bar has the potential to seriously marr your coating if there are heavy contaminants on it. So with that, your risk is actually very high.
 
As soon as I get time, I'm going to write the companion article to this article only the title will be,

The case for multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips



:)
 
Mike Phillips said:
As soon as I get time, I'm going to write the companion article to this article only the title will be,

The case for multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips



:)
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What is your thoughts or experience with decon with different products like IronX and TarX and other brands and products to revive the coating?

I think that many gives up on their coatings to fast before trying to revive them. The bigger brands has products that desolves different contaminants on the paint. And when useing the traditional car soaps. They don't get the coating clean enough.

This is more for the daily drivers than show cars. And very environment depending too. I'm totaly agreed with you when talk about a show car finish. The need to do a finishing polish and cleaning the paint and with a fresh wax. You can not beat. And I can see that it would be hard even with regualar decon washes to have a coating clean over the 2 year mark. To hold down the road grime build up to an acceptable level on a daily driver.
 
Always great photography to prove you point, Mike!! Those 50/50 shots are impressive.

I find in my area(NE PA) that ground in Dirt/staining is a major issue. I find it simply amazing, especially when using a white pad, how dirty paint can get even after a proper wash. It is one reason that my minimal service has to include at least a paint work cleaner such as Pinnacle or similar. White cars and lighter color vehicles can really show this in a 50:50 like done here in this thread but darker colors like black for example can actually show a brownish tinge that really takes away for the depth black can obtain.

Great article! I personally don’t really offer coating unless requested because paintwork still need proper maintaining. I feel some of the coatings are selling themselves as a totally maintainence free alternative when it truly is not if you want the best looking paint over the long haul.
 
Belo said:
this post is confusing to me. The point of the article is that some think a coating is longer than annual. And honestly, what you're describing with an annual polish and coating is what a lot of people, like myself do with a sealant. And honestly, There are about 5 steps i can skip in a sealed car vs a coated car.

idk, maybe i'm not understanding your post.
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My point was coating maintenance has seemingly become complicated with toppers, stripping soaps, multi-step decons, etc. You can avoid all this by just choosing an interval where you know you're going to polish and re-coat the car (could be two years instead of one), and just wash and dry in the meantime.

But yes, I agree that anything around a year or less and you have to decide if the extra cost & effort of coating is worth it. I personally prefer AIO's maintained with WOWA sealants. You could wash, clay, AIO and walk away with a great looking car if you wanted to.
 
DetailZeus said:
My point was coating maintenance has seemingly become complicated with toppers, stripping soaps, multi-step decons, etc. You can avoid all this by just choosing an interval where you know you're going to polish and re-coat the car (could be two years instead of one), and just wash and dry in the meantime.

But yes, I agree that anything around a year or less and you have to decide if the extra cost & effort of coating is worth it. I personally prefer AIO's maintained with WOWA sealants. You could wash, clay, AIO and walk away with a great looking car if you wanted to.
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It's really only as complicated as you make it. One of the downsides of coatings for hobbyists is that it's boring if you enjoy touching your car. Once applied, a coating can live just fine with a simple wash/dry, maybe use a complimentary 'booster' as a drying aid, which usually makes drying easier. If the need arises, hose it down with something like a Tar Remover and/or Iron Remover after winter, back to easy maintenance.

I like the fact that if a bird drops something on my car or it gets rained on and then sits in sun (*potential* water spots), I don't need to immediately deal with it if I choose not too; it allows me to be lazy with maintenance and still have a vehicle that looks cleaner than 90% of the other cars in the lot. I like clean cars but don't like cleaning cars...coatings fit well into that regimen.

As for yearly repolishing/correcting, I only have to do it when my personal threshold for defects via usage (stone chips, light scratches/marring, road damage/loss of sharpness or gloss) is exceeded. My threshold for this is likely less than most Detailers (one of which I don't even consider myself). Longevity aside, coatings are a purely functional curiosity for me. YMMV.
 
BudgetPlan1 said:
It's really only as complicated as you make it. One of the downsides of coatings for hobbyists is that it's boring if you enjoy touching your car. Once applied, a coating can live just fine with a simple wash/dry, maybe use a complimentary 'booster' as a drying aid, which usually makes drying easier. If the need arises, hose it down with something like a Tar Remover and/or Iron Remover after winter, back to easy maintenance.

I like the fact that if a bird drops something on my car or it gets rained on and then sits in sun (*potential* water spots), I don't need to immediately deal with it if I choose not too; it allows me to be lazy with maintenance and still have a vehicle that looks cleaner than 90% of the other cars in the lot. I like clean cars but don't like cleaning cars...coatings fit well into that regimen.

As for yearly repolishing/correcting, I only have to do it when my personal threshold for defects via usage (stone chips, light scratches/marring, road damage/loss of sharpness or gloss) is exceeded. My threshold for this is likely less than most Detailers (one of which I don't even consider myself). Longevity aside, coatings are a purely functional curiosity for me. YMMV.
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What's a good polish to clean paint/coating without removing the coating or is that possible. Say a year in one polished to just clean the paint.. and as you guys say 'boost' the coating without reapplying. Say Polish Angel Cosmic or CQuartz UK 3.0


Sent from my SM-G935V using Autogeekonline mobile app
 
Goonie75 said:
What's a good polish to clean paint/coating without removing the coating or is that possible. Say a year in one polished to just clean the paint.. and as you guys say 'boost' the coating without reapplying. Say Polish Angel Cosmic or CQuartz UK 3.0


Sent from my SM-G935V using Autogeekonline mobile app
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No pro here, total amatuer but, aside from Carpro Essence PLUS, there is no polish that won't degrade/remove the coating. Essence+ I think is marketed to be a coating 'fixer' product...dunno, never had the chance to use it.

Boost/maintain is done periodically with something like Carpro Reload.

Others can likely elaborate more/better.
 
Goonie75 said:
What's a good polish to clean paint/coating without removing the coating or is that possible. Say a year in one polished to just clean the paint.. and as you guys say 'boost' the coating without reapplying. Say Polish Angel Cosmic or CQuartz UK 3.0


Sent from my SM-G935V using Autogeekonline mobile app
Click to expand...

Only type of polish you could use are non-abrasive, chemical stripper types. I don't know any but those should be safe if you use them with a finishing pad.
 
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