The case against multi-year ceramic paint coatings - Road Grime = Surface Staining Daily Drivers by Mike Phillips

[machz]

How often are you getting scratches in your paint? Where are they coming from?

I too daily drive a black car and I rarely...if ever get any marring serious enough I have to spot polish between my major detail sessions. Over a long period of time, I might get a very light swirl mark or marr either from washing/drying or something rubbing on the side of the car, but that's life of a daily driver. I don't even try to polish out each one as they appear. You can't treat a daily driver like a trophy winning show car or you'll go nuts.

I used to do a twice a year routine like you, but now I use coatings I've gone as long as 18~24 months. If I'm honest with myself, somewhere between the 12~18 month point is where I really should polish it out again to remove the swirls and remove the grime as Mike spells out in this thread.

A few from the dealer and a few from washing the car. Also I know for a fact winter will add several that I would normally polish out in the spring. Again the biggest thing for me is I just enjoy the process of using a wax or sealant more than I do a coating. I don't think it's a chore to wax but it feels like it applying a coating.

I know for a fact that I will not be able to stand looking at my car for more than 12 months with a coating without polishing. So in the end I will polish once vs twice with a sealant/wax and will not enjoy the process. Plus I like the look of wax on a black car so all of it together made my decision easy to go back to what was working for me.

 

[Belo]

A few from the dealer and a few from washing the car. Also I know for a fact winter will add several that I would normally polish out in the spring. Again the biggest thing for me is I just enjoy the process of using a wax or sealant more than I do a coating. I don't think it's a chore to wax but it feels like it applying a coating.

I know for a fact that I will not be able to stand looking at my car for more than 12 months with a coating without polishing. So in the end I will polish once vs twice with a sealant/wax and will not enjoy the process. Plus I will the look of wax on a black car so all of it together made my decision easy to go back to what was working for me.

this is where I'm at. It's not a chore and I just cant make it a year without some scratches. the annual polish and seal is still just fine by me.

 

[swanicyouth]

So for the first time I used a ceramic coating this year and to be totally honest I don't think I would do it again. The coating went on without any problems and it looks good but having a black car no matter how careful I am with a daily driver I have picked up a few light scratches I have had to polish out. Then I had to re coat the spots as I had removed the coating.

I normally polish in the spring and in the fall to clean up any scratches and road debris. with the coating this doesn't make sense given the cost and difficulty to apply. The biggest factor for me is I hate having to worry about polishing a small scratch then having to re-coat. And honestly I don't enjoy applying the coating vs applying a sealant or a wax. So I think I will be polishing the car this fall and applying a wax or sealant again as I have in the past mainly because I enjoy the process more than I do with a coating.

You mean the magic properties of the coating didn't inhibit marring on your paint? I'm surprised. They're all 9h - whatever that means. I dunno - something to do with a hard pencil or something. And they have nano glass ceramic quartz particles in them. See, that means they are very small and very hard (lol sux). That's always a lot better for some reason. Particles so small - they have quarks and leptons in them.

Seriously, the funny thing about coatings is they are supposed to make your life easier. The reality is - they are plagued with issues: cross brand potential unknown product incompatibilities, high cost, need a whole slew of maintenance/prep/topper/applicator products specific to each coating, water spots, very early onset coating failures, need to be periodically "decontaminated" (yeah right), high spots, short shelf life, etc...

But they are pushed by pro detailers and vendors alike. Why IMO??? Because they are fast / easy to install? Because they are economical? Because they protect your paint better? No, no, & no.

The reason is anything labeled a "coating" or product designed for a coating can be sold at a significant premium over their traditional counterparts. Special coating soaps? Coating boosters? Coating prep polish? - it's all a cash cow for those manufacturing it, selling it, & installing it. Put the word "coating" on any label and you can charge 2x as much for half as much product - usually the ratio isn't even that favorable. It's like voodoo - it says "coating" (soap, etc...) so it has to cost a lot MORE!

Plus, with most coatings you get exactly 1 application per purchase. Any other type of LSP? - you may get 30-50 applications... This is great for those profiting in the coating market - I'm all about commerce and profit.

But, the reality is - your paying a lot of money for a product that requires a significant amount of maintenance that will likely not live up to it's claims of durability or protection. Then, when you get PO'ed cause yr coating wasn't earth shattering; or the newest latest greatest coating comes out - you'll be stuck with all the maintenance / prep products you bought for your initial coating that may or may not work with your new coating.

The return on investment of dollars/time/resources/effort is very poor IMO with coatings.

I think the future is in easy to apply long lasting spray sealant type products. Not the streaky nano ceramic Reload stuff that is loved by some and hated by others because results are a crap shoot. But, traditional polymer type products like Rupes P808, Prima Hydro Max, or McKees 10 minute.

Once your car is clean you can apply these in 10 mins til your hearts content. They're getting to the point where they are claiming 6 months durability. So, my standard detailing manufacturers' claim elucidation formula is to take whatever the manufacturer claims for performance and cut it in half. If you even get that long you are lucky. Even if these sealants last only 3 mos, that means wiping your car down 4x a year with a QD like product for the costs of pennies each time. Easy. Done. Anyone can do it anywhere there is a towel & a clean car.

These products are cheap, very fast / easy to use, require no special maintenance / prep products, are compatible with any soap, don't make over exaggerated claims about "protection", are predictable in their results, etc..

Anyway, that's how I roll these days. I don't wanna drop a few hundred for a coating that may or may not last or even look good. I don't want to waste extra time doing special wipe downs, looking at panels under 14 special lights before the coating flashes, dealing with water spots, etc... I prefer to use what's cheap, easy, and works.

 

[Eldorado2k]

*nods*

I’d vote for you man.

 

[dudley07726]

You mean the magic properties of the coating didn't inhibit marring on your paint? I'm surprised. They're all 9h - whatever that means. I dunno - something to do with a hard pencil or something. And they have nano glass ceramic quartz particles in them. See, that means they are very small and very hard (lol sux). That's always a lot better for some reason. Particles so small - they have quarks and leptons in them.

Seriously, the funny thing about coatings is they are supposed to make your life easier. The reality is - they are plagued with issues: cross brand potential unknown product incompatibilities, high cost, need a whole slew of maintenance/prep/topper/applicator products specific to each coating, water spots, very early onset coating failures, need to be periodically "decontaminated" (yeah right), high spots, short shelf life, etc...

But they are pushed by pro detailers and vendors alike. Why IMO??? Because they are fast / easy to install? Because they are economical? Because they protect your paint better? No, no, & no.

The reason is anything labeled a "coating" or product designed for a coating can be sold at a significant premium over their traditional counterparts. Special coating soaps? Coating boosters? Coating prep polish? - it's all a cash cow for those manufacturing it, selling it, & installing it. Put the word "coating" on any label and you can charge 2x as much for half as much product - usually the ratio isn't even that favorable. It's like voodoo - it says "coating" (soap, etc...) so it has to cost a lot MORE!

Plus, with most coatings you get exactly 1 application per purchase. Any other type of LSP? - you may get 30-50 applications... This is great for those profiting in the coating market - I'm all about commerce and profit.

But, the reality is - your paying a lot of money for a product that requires a significant amount of maintenance that will likely not live up to it's claims of durability or protection. Then, when you get PO'ed cause yr coating wasn't earth shattering; or the newest latest greatest coating comes out - you'll be stuck with all the maintenance / prep products you bought for your initial coating that may or may not work with your new coating.

The return on investment of dollars/time/resources/effort is very poor IMO with coatings.

I think the future is in easy to apply long lasting spray sealant type products. Not the streaky nano ceramic Reload stuff that is loved by some and hated by others because results are a crap shoot. But, traditional polymer type products like Rupes P808, Prima Hydro Max, or McKees 10 minute.

Once your car is clean you can apply these in 10 mins til your hearts content. They're getting to the point where they are claiming 6 months durability. So, my standard detailing manufacturers' claim elucidation formula is to take whatever the manufacturer claims for performance and cut it in half. If you even get that long you are lucky. Even if these sealants last only 3 mos, that means wiping your car down 4x a year with a QD like product for the costs of pennies each time. Easy. Done. Anyone can do it anywhere there is a towel & a clean car.

These products are cheap, very fast / easy to use, require no special maintenance / prep products, are compatible with any soap, don't make over exaggerated claims about "protection", are predictable in their results, etc..

Anyway, that's how I roll these days. I don't wanna drop a few hundred for a coating that may or may not last or even look good. I don't want to waste extra time doing special wipe downs, looking at panels under 14 special lights before the coating flashes, dealing with water spots, etc... I prefer to use what's cheap, easy, and works.

Agree. The only place I use it is on the wheels. A cash cow for the installers and manufacturers.

 

[DetailZeus]

Agree. The only place I use it is on the wheels. A cash cow for the installers and manufacturers.

I'd make a case for multi-year coatings for wheels. It'd have to be one of the "permanent" coatings though, a la opticoat, made available to consumers. Put a few CC's in a tube, give it a little warning like "we're not liable if you try this on paint and mess up," and charge a reasonable price.

 

[PaulMys]

You mean the magic properties of the coating didn't inhibit marring on your paint? I'm surprised. They're all 9h - whatever that means. I dunno - something to do with a hard pencil or something. And they have nano glass ceramic quartz particles in them. See, that means they are very small and very hard (lol sux). That's always a lot better for some reason. Particles so small - they have quarks and leptons in them.

Seriously, the funny thing about coatings is they are supposed to make your life easier. The reality is - they are plagued with issues: cross brand potential unknown product incompatibilities, high cost, need a whole slew of maintenance/prep/topper/applicator products specific to each coating, water spots, very early onset coating failures, need to be periodically "decontaminated" (yeah right), high spots, short shelf life, etc...

But they are pushed by pro detailers and vendors alike. Why IMO??? Because they are fast / easy to install? Because they are economical? Because they protect your paint better? No, no, & no.

The reason is anything labeled a "coating" or product designed for a coating can be sold at a significant premium over their traditional counterparts. Special coating soaps? Coating boosters? Coating prep polish? - it's all a cash cow for those manufacturing it, selling it, & installing it. Put the word "coating" on any label and you can charge 2x as much for half as much product - usually the ratio isn't even that favorable. It's like voodoo - it says "coating" (soap, etc...) so it has to cost a lot MORE!

Plus, with most coatings you get exactly 1 application per purchase. Any other type of LSP? - you may get 30-50 applications... This is great for those profiting in the coating market - I'm all about commerce and profit.

But, the reality is - your paying a lot of money for a product that requires a significant amount of maintenance that will likely not live up to it's claims of durability or protection. Then, when you get PO'ed cause yr coating wasn't earth shattering; or the newest latest greatest coating comes out - you'll be stuck with all the maintenance / prep products you bought for your initial coating that may or may not work with your new coating.

The return on investment of dollars/time/resources/effort is very poor IMO with coatings.

I think the future is in easy to apply long lasting spray sealant type products. Not the streaky nano ceramic Reload stuff that is loved by some and hated by others because results are a crap shoot. But, traditional polymer type products like Rupes P808, Prima Hydro Max, or McKees 10 minute.

Once your car is clean you can apply these in 10 mins til your hearts content. They're getting to the point where they are claiming 6 months durability. So, my standard detailing manufacturers' claim elucidation formula is to take whatever the manufacturer claims for performance and cut it in half. If you even get that long you are lucky. Even if these sealants last only 3 mos, that means wiping your car down 4x a year with a QD like product for the costs of pennies each time. Easy. Done. Anyone can do it anywhere there is a towel & a clean car.

These products are cheap, very fast / easy to use, require no special maintenance / prep products, are compatible with any soap, don't make over exaggerated claims about "protection", are predictable in their results, etc..

Anyway, that's how I roll these days. I don't wanna drop a few hundred for a coating that may or may not last or even look good. I don't want to waste extra time doing special wipe downs, looking at panels under 14 special lights before the coating flashes, dealing with water spots, etc... I prefer to use what's cheap, easy, and works.

This is one hell of a post, and my feelings exactly.

 

[Eldorado2k]

I'd make a case for multi-year coatings for wheels. It'd have to be one of the "permanent" coatings though, a la opticoat, made available to consumers. Put a few CC's in a tube, give it a little warning like "we're not liable if you try this on paint and mess up," and charge a reasonable price.

Does that result in spray with a pressure washer no agitation needed cleaning?

 

[dudley07726]

Does that result in spray with a pressure washer no agitation needed cleaning?

I tried with with just spraying but found agitation is needed.

 

[DetailZeus]

Does that result in spray with a pressure washer no agitation needed cleaning?

Can't say, never seen it in person! I'd hope it get you close? I make the point because if I'm going to pull my wheels, get them squeaky clean, and coat every nook and cranny I want that stuff to LAST. Then just shampoo and water to maintain.

 

[swanicyouth]

For wheels I actually use a coating type product - Car Pro Hydro Foam. It's pretty costly - but it's so worth it. It's a soap & "coating" (Hydro 2) in one product.

So, I dilute it 1:9 in a foaming spray trigger bottle & clean my wheels with it. Wheels are always clean, glossy, and bead water like no other. But don't get confused. This is not a coating. This an easily renewable / replaceable product that actually makes my life EASIER because it takes the place of 2 products (traditional wheel cleaner & wheel protectant).

Besides that, it works wonderfully for cleaning and protecting any external surface on a car in 1 step: grills, cowls, wiper arms, trim, glass, exhaust tips - whatever... I even use it to wash my tractor. You don't need anything special to use it and the results are always predictable. I've been using this stuff literally since the day it came out and it has so many applications. I use it on anything besides car paint.

It's not perfect though. It cost a LOT more than car soap oz per oz. I don't use it on paint because it will streak in any type of sun. However, it's a tool when used appropriately that is just awesome & makes your life simpler. Removing wheels to coat them periodically is a huge PIA. Use this product to clean yr wheels every other time & they will stay more hydrophobic than any coating past it's first month or so.

Of course it's "soap" - so it's prolly not going to work awesome on filthy brake encrusted wheels. But for anyone who details their own cars frequently - the best investment you can make for clean wheels isn't a specific wheel cleaner or protectant - it's zero dust ceramic brake pads. This turns cleaning wheels into a job as easy as cleaning paint, making any soap effective. You will save time, money, and headaches over trying to keep constantly dusty filthy wheels clean and protected with traditional metallic type brake pads.

 

[Eldorado2k]

People talk about beading on the wheels, but IMO the wheels beading isn’t really noticeable or even important. If those spray coatings made it so the wheels could be cleaned with a simple hose off with water then I’d be excited about them, but if I still have to agitate then I may as well stick with Megs Wheel Brightener and as long as you’re maintaining them every 7-10 days it is a simple spray on hose off cleaning and all I’ve got is the garden hose nozzle. If you’ve got a power washer there’s even less doubt it’ll work touchless as long as it’s not a crazy long time between cleanings.

 

[Belo]

Agree. The only place I use it is on the wheels. A cash cow for the installers and manufacturers.

ditto. while expensive, hydro blue on my wheels was the coolest "new" thing I've tried in a long time.

People talk about beading on the wheels, but IMO the wheels beading isn’t really noticeable or even important. If those spray coatings made it so the wheels could be cleaned with a simple hose off with water then I’d be excited about them, but if I still have to agitate then I may as well stick with Megs Wheel Brightener and as long as you’re maintaining them every 7-10 days it is a simple spray on hose off cleaning and all I’ve got is the garden hose nozzle. If you’ve got a power washer there’s even less doubt it’ll work touchless as long as it’s not a crazy long time between cleanings.

I agree that beading isn't important on the wheels, but I do think the 5 minutes it takes to apply something like hydro blue does help repeal some dirt and while not a spray clean option, definitely makes it easier to wash.

 

[DetailZeus]

People talk about beading on the wheels, but IMO the wheels beading isn’t really noticeable or even important. If those spray coatings made it so the wheels could be cleaned with a simple hose off with water then I’d be excited about them, but if I still have to agitate then I may as well stick with Megs Wheel Brightener and as long as you’re maintaining them every 7-10 days it is a simple spray on hose off cleaning and all I’ve got is the garden hose nozzle. If you’ve got a power washer there’s even less doubt it’ll work touchless as long as it’s not a crazy long time between cleanings.

This is actually how I feel about LSP's in general. The number one thing I ask of them is to make my car easier to clean. Resist bugs, bird bombs, waters spots, and miscellaneous grime. I'm not looking for touchless but I do want as much stuff to come off as possible with my initial rinse. I think water beading is great for letting you know your LSP is still there but I think there is a point of diminishing returns when you try to get super ultra hydrophobic beading. I saved an old quote from our fellow chemist that used to post here,

[...] You have mistaken water repellency for protection. Repelling water is great but this is not self cleaning. Self cleaning is in fact the absolute opposite. Ideal self-cleaning coatings have zero water repellency. Such coatings work by water being strongly attracted to the surface. As such, water will get `between` soiling and the surface and thus it washes away easily. This isn`t something open to debate, that is simply how it works. Water repellent finishes are actually `difficult to dirty`, not so much `easy to clean`. Dirt is typically suspended in water and because water does not stick, the dirt is inhibited likewise. Unfortunately, when the dirt does stick or when you get air borne oily soils (for instance exhaust gases), the water is unable to wet the surface effectively so the surface actually becomes more difficult to clean! Unfortunately users love beads and a self cleaning surface will simply not provide this. Additionally, it is a lot harder to make durable and strongly hydrophillic (self cleaning) surfaces. [...]

I post this because I think it's relevant the surface staining Mike talks about in his initial post, and just something to think about as we encourage our brands to continue to push the limits on water beading.

 

[Eldorado2k]

This is actually how I feel about LSP's in general. The number one thing I ask of them is to make my car easier to clean. Resist bugs, bird bombs, waters spots, and miscellaneous grime. I'm not looking for touchless but I do want as much stuff to come off as possible with my initial rinse. I think water beading is great for letting you know your LSP is still there but I think there is a point of diminishing returns when you try to get super ultra hydrophobic beading. I saved an old quote from our fellow chemist that used to post here,

I completely agree with your description of what you’re looking to get from a lsp.. And I’d totally be interested in using a spray coating on the wheels if they could survive through being sprayed and rinsed with so called “harsh” wheel cleaners, because that’s what I’d use to clean my wheels even if they were protected because I’ll pass on getting down and having to agitate if and whenever possible... But as far as I know they won’t survive being sprayed with a harsh wheel cleaner so for me it’s just not something I see a benefit in using.

Btw, there’s a chance I could be completely wrong about some of those spray on hose off coatings not being able to survive through “harsh” wheel cleaners, because IIRC Jeff from Gyeon said something about their version of it can handle any chemical between the PH levels 3-12 or something like that, which would make Wheel Brightener a welcome possibility. I haven’t had any way of testing this so I don’t know for sure.


...All that being said, I still find myself going through the whole bucket of wheel brushes about 85% of the time when it comes to cleaning wheels & tires. Why? Because I’m OCD about detailing, especially wheels & tires + vacuuming.lol.

 

[Justin at Final Inspection]

I have used Hydro Blue and Hydro2 on wheels with some success. And actually for whatever reason I have had instance's where it caused brake dust to stick a bit more. Someone actually made a video on YouTube describing it too.

I do however strongly believe and promote a high quality wheel coating. Won't change my opinion on that. I have plenty of clients and my own vehicles that have fully coated wheels and it makes cleaning them a breeze. Typically soapy water and a quick agitation gets them clean. Hell my wife's car gets washed maybe once a month and she does upwards of 1500+ miles a month. Here wheels clean up in a matter of minutes. Also I find it helpful on vehicles with factory Brembo style brakes that seem to spit out tons of dust.

 

[swanicyouth]

People talk about beading on the wheels, but IMO the wheels beading isn’t really noticeable or even important. If those spray coatings made it so the wheels could be cleaned with a simple hose off with water then I’d be excited about them, but if I still have to agitate then I may as well stick with Megs Wheel Brightener and as long as you’re maintaining them every 7-10 days it is a simple spray on hose off cleaning and all I’ve got is the garden hose nozzle. If you’ve got a power washer there’s even less doubt it’ll work touchless as long as it’s not a crazy long time between cleanings.

I feel when you see "beading" on wheels - it means there is some protection on there & it makes them significantly easier to clean. Besides, it does look cool & the spray SI02 sealants do add some gloss.

I have Megs Wheel Bright and the stuff is just horrible to work with. You can use it almost touchlessly if you have low dust brake pads - I agree. It's fairly cheap as well. It's toxic & I think I just feel better about spraying something that isn't so nasty. Realistically, we are all not using gloves and respirators when we use this stuff - as you're supposed to.

And, the thing w/ WB is - you never really know for SURE if it will damage something used over time. I know it's pretty safe if used correctly - but over time will it's use etch or fade your wheel paint - who knows?

But, TBH - WB works significantly better than any of these $20 a pint iron attacking wheel cleaners. If I was a pro - I'd be using it frequently.

 

[Eldorado2k]

I feel when you see "beading" on wheels - it means there is some protection on there & it makes them significantly easier to clean. Besides, it does look cool & the spray SI02 sealants do add some gloss.

I have Megs Wheel Bright and the stuff is just horrible to work with. You can use it almost touchlessly if you have low dust brake pads - I agree. It's fairly cheap as well. It's toxic & I think I just feel better about spraying something that isn't so nasty. Realistically, we are all not using gloves and respirators when we use this stuff - as you're supposed to.

And, the thing w/ WB is - you never really know for SURE if it will damage something used over time. I know it's pretty safe if used correctly - but over time will it's use etch or fade your wheel paint - who knows?

But, TBH - WB works significantly better than any of these $20 a pint iron attacking wheel cleaners. If I was a pro - I'd be using it frequently.

I agree with you as far as needing to be on extra precaution when using it, and you’re right we don’t always have a mask handy when the time comes... 1 thing I always make sure to do is either have my cat indoors or if not I spray a couple of warning shots with the jet nozzle under the vehicle to make sure she’s not anywhere near the vehicle when I begin spraying wheel cleaner.

And just last weekend I got reminded to never spray that stuff when there’s a bit of wind blowing in your direction.. Not fun, that goes for both D143 Non Acid Wheel Cleaner and Wheel Brightener, as they both have a level 3 hazard on the label and it’s smart to always be aware of it.

I think a part of me gets a bit of satisfaction being able to knock through the heaviest dirt and grime on the vehicle with an equally powerful cleaner.

 

[PaulMys]

I agree with you as far as needing to be on extra precaution when using it, and you’re right we don’t always have a mask handy when the time comes... 1 thing I always make sure to do is either have my cat indoors or if not I spray a couple of warning shots with the jet nozzle under the vehicle to make sure she’s not anywhere near the vehicle when I begin spraying wheel cleaner.

And just last weekend I got reminded to never spray that stuff when there’s a bit of wind blowing in your direction.. Not fun, that goes for both D143 Non Acid Wheel Cleaner and Wheel Brightener, as they both have a level 3 hazard on the label and it’s smart to always be aware of it.

I think a part of me gets a bit of satisfaction being able to knock through the heaviest dirt and grime on the vehicle with an equally powerful cleaner.

Lmao @ "warning shots"...

 

[Finick]

I’m actually a big fan of using d143 inside of a pump sprayer because I feel like it doesn’t atomize the product as well as the tolco sprayers I use. Or the ones on my meguiars bottles. I might use a little bit more, but honestly the 56oz I mix up seems to last for awhile.

Idk by how much, but I definitely notice a ton less fumes and kickback when I’m dousing my tires/wheels.

I’d like to grab one for wheel brightener but I’m just so lazy


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