The GG polisher is as good as the 3401?

[Koz]

Oh! The 900 watts you posted is input power of the flex, not output power. 900w equates to 7.5 amps, but it's output power is only 590w.

Found that info here: Flex XC 3401 VRG Review.

I'm assuming the power loss is due to friction caused by the gear assembly in the head of the flex, the same reason there is a big loss in power with an awd car due to drivetrain friction and such.

The 850w cited for the GG is input power. The input power of the Flex is 900w. How the power is distributed does not change the total power of the machine. It will affect the performance. I'm sure flex determined that 900w was enough power to also drive the forced rotation feature. On paper, the motor still draws 7.5 amps which makes it a LITTLE more powerful. Now does the extra power make it more effective? That is personal opinion/experience. That is why I wanted to get your reasoning.

Koz

 

[O.C.Detailing]

I'd like to first say that in no way do I think that your personal opinion on the GG is wrong, everyone has an opinion that is based on their personal experience and (To me) this is the most important opinion a person can have. I do however feel that there is a mistake on the post that you cited. The manufacture (Flex) rates the motor for the 3401 at 900w not 590w. I think what happened was the output wattage of the Flex and the input wattage of the GG was listed in the post (should have been input on both). Also in the post (you cited) there is an amp rating of 7.5. This alone should have raised a flag. How could a motor that draws 7.5 amps be rated at less watts then a motor that is rated at 7 amps (With the same volts applied)?

Based on Ohms Law I=W/V

Flex – 900w/120v = 7.5amps
GG – 850w/120v = 7.0amps

This being said, I think (On paper) the Flex is more powerful. Also the Flex has forced rotation (up to 480rpm) which should equate to a little more friction which could make a difference in the actual performance of the machine. Unless I’m reading the data wrong, on paper, the GG is the most powerful RO, other then the 3401. I personally think (based on data) the GG would be the best bang for the buck RO.

Koz

The input and output power of the Flex will be very different than the input and output power of the GG.

The flex has a LOT of friction in it's drive mechanism compared to the GG which has very little in it's free-spinning-spindle-assembly.

With great friction comes great power loss. This is a proven fact in many more applications than just polishers.

I've had both machines in-hand and I can tell you right now, the Flex only has forced rotation going for it over the Griot's. The Griot's allows the pad to spin at it's full potential where the Flex limits it's OPMs and RPMs to how quickly the drive mechanism can spin and orbit it's pads, which isn't as quickly as the GG can.

I"m not saying that the GG spins them at the same speed all of the time, but on a flat panel with a 5.5" pad, the Flex is a far shot behind the GG in terms of correction power. Matter of fact, I can't seem to get a quicker, cleaner defect removal with my rotary than I can with my GG, though I will concede a rotary will level paint faster. I also need to get a quality rotary instead of using the Chicago Tools rotary I currently use.

This is a good conversation, but you'll only ever really know what I"m saying by using both. I have and have shared my experience, not opinion, on many occasions. I'm not putting the Flex down at all, but the fan boys of the Flex want you to believe it's the best thing since sliced bread and it's not. That doesn't mean it's not a great machine and at the top of the heap with the GG, but it neither beats or falls short of the abilities of the GG polisher. To be completely fair would be to state that they are equal to each other, but in different ways. The GG will remove more defects quicker, but the Flex will finish cleaner.

 

[CEE DOG]

After you apply pressure to the machine are you sure that Griots is spinning as fast as the Flex?

Either way, I've probably stated it before in this thread but the difference in how smooth the Flex is compared to the GG is night and day. Between that and the locations of the buttons and switches as well as a few other things for me there is no comparison. For me it comes down to one simple fact. With the GG I did not enjoy polishing and with the Flex I love it. Just my opinion. I think its fantastic that other people are happy with the GG.

 

[O.C.Detailing]

After you apply pressure to the machine are you sure that Griots is spinning as fast as the Flex?

Either way, I've probably stated it before in this thread but the difference in how smooth the Flex is compared to the GG is night and day. Between that and the locations of the buttons and switches as well as a few other things for me there is no comparison. For me it comes down to one simple fact. With the GG I did not enjoy polishing and with the Flex I love it. Just my opinion. I think its fantastic that other people are happy with the GG.

With 5.5" pads, the Griot's will spin faster than the Flex even with a lot of power. With 6.5" pads, it's more difficult to keep them spinning as quickly with the same amount of pressure.

With 5.5" pads, the Griot's has as little or LESS vibration than the Flex if the pad is centered properly. I can hold my GG off of the surface of the paint with a 5.5" pad that is centered properly and the machine only vibrates slightly.

Anyway, need to hit the road all. Fun talk though.

 

[Koz]

The input and output power of the Flex will be very different than the input and output power of the GG.

The flex has a LOT of friction in it's drive mechanism compared to the GG which has very little in it's free-spinning-spindle-assembly.

With great friction comes great power loss. This is a proven fact in many more applications than just polishers.

I've had both machines in-hand and I can tell you right now, the Flex only has forced rotation going for it over the Griot's. The Griot's allows the pad to spin at it's full potential where the Flex limits it's OPMs and RPMs to how quickly the drive mechanism can spin and orbit it's pads, which isn't as quickly as the GG can.

I"m not saying that the GG spins them at the same speed all of the time, but on a flat panel with a 5.5" pad, the Flex is a far shot behind the GG in terms of correction power. Matter of fact, I can't seem to get a quicker, cleaner defect removal with my rotary than I can with my GG, though I will concede a rotary will level paint faster. I also need to get a quality rotary instead of using the Chicago Tools rotary I currently use.

This is a good conversation, but you'll only ever really know what I"m saying by using both. I have and have shared my experience, not opinion, on many occasions. I'm not putting the Flex down at all, but the fan boys of the Flex want you to believe it's the best thing since sliced bread and it's not. That doesn't mean it's not a great machine and at the top of the heap with the GG, but it neither beats or falls short of the abilities of the GG polisher. To be completely fair would be to state that they are equal to each other, but in different ways. The GG will remove more defects quicker, but the Flex will finish cleaner.

There is only one way to determine if the forced rotation is worth diverting power and extra money. You are in the position to make that determination. You and your partner could do a side-by-side comparison on the same vehicle with the same pads/products. This would be VERY interesting!

Koz

 

[O.C.Detailing]

There is only one way to determine if the forced rotation is worth diverting power and extra money. You are in the position to make that determination. You and your partner could do a side-by-side comparison on the same vehicle with the same pads/products. This would be VERY interesting!

Koz

We have. We had to wetsand the Dodge Durango 5.9 R/T in several spots. John used his flex on one but couldn't get all of the sanding marks out without hitting the same spot 3-4 times. My GG got them all out with 2 hits of 105 on an orange 6.5" CCs pad.

As I've stated several times, the GG is the more powerful of the two on a flat panel. With 5.5" pads, it rivals the power of a rotary. The flex wouldn't benefit at all with a smaller diameter pad even if it could use them due to the fact that it's rpm and opms are gear driven.

 

[Koz]

We have. We had to wetsand the Dodge Durango 5.9 R/T in several spots. John used his flex on one but couldn't get all of the sanding marks out without hitting the same spot 3-4 times. My GG got them all out with 2 hits of 105 on an orange 6.5" CCs pad.

As I've stated several times, the GG is the more powerful of the two on a flat panel. With 5.5" pads, it rivals the power of a rotary. The flex wouldn't benefit at all with a smaller diameter pad even if it could use them due to the fact that it's rpm and opms are gear driven.

You both were using the same pad type/size and product? A smaller pad can be used on the Flex (4" 3M Edge). The Flex's opm is faster then the GG (The Flex and GG's opms are both direct drive), its the force rotation that is different (Gear driven).

There is more to performance then power. There is no way the GG or the Flex 3401 compares to a decent rotary in terms of performance. Yes under certain circumstances a powerful RO can be as effective as rotary but overall it is impossible for an RO to generate the friction/heat a rotary can, in much less time. There is a video on youtube comparing the Flex to the PC and not only did the Flex save time it was more effective. Do you think this is only due to more power (if you look at the post you cited is 90w)?

The awd example you gave is a good one. What good is power if you can not get it to the ground under certain circumstances? On the other hand, fwd has less drive train loss then rwd yet almost all race cars are rwd!

I think what Flex has determined is having RO and force rotation (Rotary) combined is overall more effective then just RO. If I were in the polishing machine manufacturing business I would make a machine that can be switched to operate with RO only, RO and rotary and rotary only. One machine to do it all!

Koz

 

[Bunky]

I am sure any detailer would like either.

I have a Flex and love it. I found every polish I used worked better - no wondering when it has broken down, no worrying about pressure (just hold it against the paint and guide).

Did I pay more? I do not know but it does what I want and does requires less skill than a DA (pressure, pad selection, etc). That is, it is less technique dependent.

 

[O.C.Detailing]

The flex has less opms and Rpms. It has less power and requires more passes to remove the same defects my gg can. This is all personal experience gained using and working side by side for over 6 months. I don't know where you're reading the flex has more power, opms and Roma than the gg, but it doesn't and I know this folirst hand. The pc7424 isn't even in the smae class as the gg or the flex.

I guess what I'm saying is that until you've used both firsthand, then you don't know or understand that whY you're reading isn't what you're getting when you buy a flex.

Anyway, like I said, buying either is win-win, but I will never concede to the assumption that the flex is a better machine when I've experienced for myself that it isn't true. Gonna bow out now so the thread stays on topic and doesn't go any further downhill. Others have experienced what I'm saying as well. Maybe they'll pop in and give their opinions.

 

[O.C.Detailing]

omg...posting to AG on the iPhone is hard when you're typing long replies...sorry for the spelling errors above.

 

[Dubbin1]

Flex
[FONT=arial, helvetica]
Power input: 900 Watts
Power output: 590 Watt
Orbit Rate 3200-9600 rpm
7.5amp
5/16 Orbit

GG

[/FONT]Power input 850 Watt
7amp
2,500 - 6,800 Orbits Per Minute
5/16 Orbit

I would lay my money on the Flex having more power
[FONT=arial, helvetica][/FONT]

 

[CEE DOG]

O.C.Detailing, I very much appreciate all your experience and knowledge you have shared with the rest of us but I stress this as strongly as I can while making every attempt not to offend. There is no way under any circumstances that the Griots has less vibration then the Flex. I've used both and there is absolutely no question.... unless you have a defective Flex and I had a defective Griots.... :laughing:

 

[VR8]

Good to see some things never change. LOL. Adam is definitely head cheerleader for the Griot's camp. My Flex is the one so often mentioned in the "side by side" comparisons above. Since everyone has been so eager to express their opinions, how could I possibly leave mine out? But then again, does it really matter? Nope. I'm not getting rid of my Flex ... or my Makita ... or even my old PC that lays on sealant with the best of um.

So do I think the Griot's is more powerful than the Flex? Well, I know it's a lot louder!

 

[CEE DOG]

Good to see some things never change. LOL. Adam is definitely head cheerleader for the Griot's camp. My Flex is the one so often mentioned in the "side by side" comparisons above. Since everyone has been so eager to express their opinions, how could I possibly leave mine out? But then again, does it really matter? Nope. I'm not getting rid of my Flex ... or my Makita ... or even my old PC that lays on sealant with the best of um.

So do I think the Griot's is more powerful than the Flex? Well, I know it's a lot louder!

LOL! Well this thread certainly has a life of its own doesn't it. It's like the energizer bunny Im the MAN

 

[thatick]

Im gonna chime in with my noobie opinion on these machines as i have owned both. I personally had a hard time controlling the flex. Like i said im new to detailing but never had any issues controling the old model PC, but when i moved up to the flex, it was all over the place. Now most of this was probably from bad technique or whatever, but it felt like i was in a constant battle with it, thus it took all the joy out of it. Now i have a Griots, and for"me", it is much easier to control, and so far has tackled all my correction needs. I really wanted to like the flex but it just wasnt for me. Ive never used a rotary but i would probably have issues controling it also. So i guess the best way to find out what works for you is try them both. Power and speed and all that doesnt mean a thing if you dont enjoy the machine you are using.:dblthumb2:

 

[5.4 Shelby]

This thread has turned into a no win discussion. Some like the Flex. Some like the Griots. Both are the best available DA polishers available.

So, buy what you like and be done with it.

 

[markm]

I have been watching this thread with some interest since I recently purchased a flex. Common sense told me that forced rotation would be better. I own a PC and it will stop if the pressure is to great or the pad is wet. With the flex it never stops, even at slow speed. I am NOT a professional, only a do-ti-yourself kind of guy, so my opinion is only that "my opinion". I have not experienced that feeling of having to chase the flex around or being led by it. I find it a pure joy to use. I still use the makita rotary for deep scratches because it will correct really fast, but it is not as much fun to use as the flex. If you get a chance try the different machines and buy the one you like. I am on another forum for hand engravers (guns and jewelry) and there is a device being sold that is way more expensive than any or even all of the machines put together. There is a section on the forum where owners of the device post their location and invite others to try it out. Only after taking someone up on their offer and loving the device did I buy it. It would be nice if admin would create a spot so members that are willing, could post the machines that they would allow others to try. The forum family seems only to willing to share their knowledge with each other. Sometimes you can feel the tension in a post because of the individuals passion for their techniques, products and comitment to a company. Remember it is not a contest and you can't see expressions or body language in a post so don't read too much into them.


Mark

 

[Rsurfer]

I have been watching this thread with some interest since I recently purchased a flex. Common sense told me that forced rotation would be better. I own a PC and it will stop if the pressure is to great or the pad is wet. With the flex it never stops, even at slow speed. I am NOT a professional, only a do-ti-yourself kind of guy, so my opinion is only that "my opinion". I have not experienced that feeling of having to chase the flex around or being led by it. I find it a pure joy to use. I still use the makita rotary for deep scratches because it will correct really fast, but it is not as much fun to use as the flex. If you get a chance try the different machines and buy the one you like. I am on another forum for hand engravers (guns and jewelry) and there is a device being sold that is way more expensive than any or even all of the machines put together. There is a section on the forum where owners of the device post their location and invite others to try it out. Only after taking someone up on their offer and loving the device did I buy it. It would be nice if admin would create a spot so members that are willing, could post the machines that they would allow others to try. The forum family seems only to willing to share their knowledge with each other. Sometimes you can feel the tension in a post because of the individuals passion for their techniques, products and comitment to a company. Remember it is not a contest and you can't see expressions or body language in a post so don't read too much into them.


Mark

I don't believe that it's aganist AG rules to post a "try out" on a particular machine. AG sells most of the buffers avalilable. You could just post the type of machine and if anyone is interested in trying it out, they could PM you for the time and place.

 

[markm]

I don't believe that it's aganist AG rules to post a "try out" on a particular machine. AG sells most of the buffers avalilable. You could just post the type of machine and if anyone is interested in trying it out, they could PM you for the time and place.

I Know I could do that. If someone contacted me I wouldn't have a problem letting them try it. I was not only refering to my little corner of the world. I updated my user cp to reflect my location. I think there are a lot of new members that happen upon the forum, see all the cool toys and would like to take them for a test spin. I am fortunate that I live a short drive to AG so I was able to attend DF and try some cool stuff. I bought most of what I tried too.

 

[CEE DOG]

So i guess the best way to find out what works for you is try them both. Power and speed and all that doesnt mean a thing if you dont enjoy the machine you are using.:dblthumb2:

Very well said!

Remember it is not a contest and you can't see expressions or body language in a post so don't read too much into them.

Mark

You got it. None of us built these machines so it's not like a mine is better then yours. Only our opinions (sometimes strong) about which is better for each of us.